When are you a "power driven vessel"?

[Kings Gambit]

I would like to see some citations for this because a quick google search shows otherwise. From just looking at a couple of regulations you see statements like:

Try this [at link]. Sorry, it's so long.

Here's the relevant quote:

'The history of the COLREGS shows that they were enacted because of the need to establish a code of international rules of the road for maritime traffic through out the world. However, nothing in their history indicates that they were meant to regulate voluntary private sports activity in which the participants have waived their application and in which no interference with non-participating maritime traffic is implicated.

'Surprisingly, considering the extent and history of maritime and yachting traditions there is a dearth of applicable jurisprudence, although older reported English cases reveal that these questions have not altogether avoided judicial scrutiny over the years.

'The cases we have found however, are helpful to the extent that they establish the principle that when one voluntarily enters a yacht race for which published sailing instructions set out the conditions of participation, a private contract results between the participants requiring their compliance therewith.

KG

http://archive.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/04/0111pera/

 

[Benny17441]

If you're "behaving as a power-driven" sailing vessel during daylight with your sails up and drawing, you should have hoisted the appropriate day shape that communicates your status. That is your first responsibility; not to maneuver as a power-driven vessel that depends on the other guy detecting exhaust or water discharge to learn your status and anticipate your maneuvers.

I agree with you but the requirements to hoist a black cone showing a vessel under sail and power only applies to boats larger than 12 meters and our boat measures a tad under 10. Out in the real world most pleasure crafts are not utilizing day signals so we are left with behaving prudently while anticipating anything.

 

[Jackdaw]

c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

Anyone could argue that the phrase "not being used" means "not being used [for propulsion.]" That's clearly implied. If a sailboater lost his propeller or bent his prop shaft in going from point a to b, and sailed into a harbor with the engine running in neutral to maintain battery charge, it would be ludicrous to argue that he was a "power-driven vessel" b/c his engine was idling.

I agree with this.

USED means (from Oxford) 'employed in accomplishing something'

In this case it is propulsion. That is what the definition says. And Oxford says propulsion is: 'the force that moves something forward'

So not used for ballast, not used for heat generation, not used for consuming precious fossil fuel. That says to me that even with your motor on, if you are not using it to generate propulsion (moving), you are a sailboat.

 

[capta]

Here is the PDF of the COLREGS.


So to the poster who said they call themselves a vessel not under command when then go to take a nap while sailing solo, good luck defending that in court if anything ever happens. There is plenty of case law that has cited solo sailors for failure to maintain a proper lookout. And you don't meet the definition of the rules.

What's to say that being too exhausted to maintain a proper lookout is not exceptional circumstances? Being properly lit as a vessel NUC informs other vessels that your vessel is not navigating under 'normal' circumstances which would then be considered 'exceptional' circumstances, would it not?

 

[capta]

I think many of you need to understand that the 'instructors' for the captain licensing courses in the US are NOT there to teach the students anything more than how to pass the test. Their knowledge may not be restricted to that, but the important thing for those teaching the course is their pass/fail numbers, not to teach folks what they should already know before they take the course.

 

[Capt jgw]

In point of fact, if your propelling machinery is not engaged in motivating the vessel, you are NOT under power. If your engine is running, to charge batteries, or for any other reason, but NOT propelling the vessel, then you are NOT a motor vessel.
If your sails are down and your engine is on, but not engaged in propelling the vessel, then you are a vessel not under command, which is a completely different set of lights.
Many cruisers will run their engine out of gear, while under sail to charge batteries, run watermakers or refrigeration, but they are still being propelled by their sails and therefor should be lit as a sailboat.
It's all about what is making the boat go, and the expected maneuverability of the vessel, under the rules.

Almost correct, but not quite. "Not under command" means unable to maneuver "Due to some exceptional circumstance" which means something is broken. If your engine quits or won't start, you are Not Under Command and are at the top of the pecking order. Of you just turned it off, you are "Under way, not making way" which gives you no extra privileges over anyone else. If you are the give way, you must still give way.

 

[Capt jgw]

I think many of you need to understand that the 'instructors' for the captain licensing courses in the US are NOT there to teach the students anything more than how to pass the test. Their knowledge may not be restricted to that, but the important thing for those teaching the course is their pass/fail numbers, not to teach folks what they should already know before they take the course.

I am one of those instructors and have to admit that that is pretty much true. We teach to the test, but the Rules exams are so extensive that a passing student will have a very good understanding of the important rules. There are parts of the rule book the CG never asks about, and we don't cover them. We are not required to.

 

[Capt jgw]

What's to say that being too exhausted to maintain a proper lookout is not exceptional circumstances? Being properly lit as a vessel NUC informs other vessels that your vessel is not navigating under 'normal' circumstances which would then be considered 'exceptional' circumstances, would it not?

Being dead tired or asleep could be considered NUC, but that would not relieve one of the requirement to maintain a proper lookout at all times. So if there was a collision, the sleeping sailor would still be at least partially at fault, even if he was displaying light or shapes for NUC.
On commercial vessels, a crew may not be on duty more than 12 hours in a 24 hour period just to avoid such a situation.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I am one of those instructors and have to admit that that is pretty much true. We teach to the test, but the Rules exams are so extensive that a passing student will have a very good understanding of the important rules. There are parts of the rule book the CG never asks about, and we don't cover them. We are not required to.

Sorry for saying so, but if all that is required is 70% correct answers to pass, then "a very good understanding of the important rules" is not likely to be guaranteed even if the test is extensive. Considering accompanying "measurement error" a low-pass student might not even know 70% of the [trimmed down] material, etc. The pass rate should be at minimally 80% [85% is better], fully objective--then you might have a reliable measure of the student's understanding of the material.

 

[Capt jgw]

Sorry for saying so, but if all that is required is 70% correct answers to pass, then "a very good understanding of the important rules" is not likely to be guaranteed even if the test is extensive. Considering accompanying "measurement error" a low-pass student might not even know 70% of the [trimmed down] material, etc. The pass rate should be at 80%, fully objective--then you might have a reliable measure of the student's understanding of the material.

The Rules exam is 90% minimum. Five wrong out of fifty in the current configuration. Used to be three out of thirty. It's a very tough exam.

 

[BayMan]

From the CPLREGS:

(a) The word “vessel” includes every description of water craft, including nondisplacement craft, WIG craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

Seems a lawyer could argue it either way. My opinion is engine on - I'm a powerboat

I'm a lawyer, and here is what I think....... (pregnant pause)

"PROPELLED BY MACHINERY" refers to the transmission as much as it does to the engine. If your sails are up, engine on but in neutral, and you are being propelled by the wind, then you are not a power driven vessel, you are a sailing vessel.

I will send my bill at my usual hourly rate.

 

[Kings Gambit]

The Rules exam is 90% minimum. Five wrong out of fifty in the current configuration. Used to be three out of thirty. It's a very tough exam.

Thanks. It's gratifying to know an example of where certification exams are becoming more, rather than less, stringent!

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

The Rules exam is 90% minimum. Five wrong out of fifty in the current configuration. Used to be three out of thirty. It's a very tough exam.

Mine was 3 out of 30. I would have preferred 5 out of 50. About half of the class failed on the first try. The biggest difficulty with this part of the testing is that they test you on inland and international rules at the same time. So keeping some of that straight can be tricky.

The 10 plot (10 questions on plotting and you have to get 7 right) was probably the hardest section. Again, about half of the class failed on the first try. But you could tell who was going to fail before the test. If you didn't do the homework and develop the skills you didn't have a chance. If you did the homework you had a reasonable expectation to pass.

The nav general was 70% correct out of 30 questions and the deck general was 70% correct out of 70. Neither of those were too difficult as you can look everything up.

 

[JK_Boston_Catalina310]

I'm a lawyer, and here is what I think....... (pregnant pause)

"PROPELLED BY MACHINERY" refers to the transmission as much as it does to the engine. If your sails are up, engine on but in neutral, and you are being propelled by the wind, then you are not a power driven vessel, you are a sailing vessel.

I will send my bill at my usual hourly rate.

OK Mr. Lawyer, how would you define a power boat in neutral with the engines on?

 

[Kermit]

I'm a lawyer, and here is what I think....... (pregnant pause)... I will send my bill at my usual hourly rate.

Pregnant pause included?

 

[Jackdaw]

OK Mr. Lawyer, how would you define a power boat in neutral with the engines on?

Unless at anchor or aground, it is a 'power-driven vessel underway'.

That's a COLREGS-defined term with specific obligations.

 

[Capt jgw]

OK Mr. Lawyer, how would you define a power boat in neutral with the engines on?

Not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, but that is a vessel "underway not making way" and it gets no special privilege. It's required to be put in gear and get out of the way if necessary.

 

[BayMan]

OK Mr. Lawyer, how would you define a power boat in neutral with the engines on?

How would you define a sailboat with its sails down and not under power and not anchored? You are talking about a boat that is not being driven at all.

 

[Capt jgw]

How would you define a sailboat with its sails down and not under power and not anchored? You are talking about a boat that is not being driven at all.

Underway, not making way. Same as above. Unless the sails and engine are broken, then it's "not under command" and is at the top of the pecking order, providing it communicates it's status.

 

[BayMan]

OK Mr. Lawyer, how would you define a power boat in neutral with the engines on?

Couldn't resist answering a question with a question. That's how we lawyers make big bucks.

A powerboat with engines running in neutral is a power driven vessel because it is propelled by machinery.

A sailboat with sails down engine on but in neutral is a power driven vessel because it is not then a sailing vessel because it's sails are down.

A sailboat with sails up and engine on but in neutral is a sailing vessel because it is under sail and it's engine/transmission/prop are not being used to propel the boat.