You only need concern yourself with three words in the rules. These three words leave absolutely no room for interpretation.
"PROPELLED BY MACHINERY"
When are you a "power driven vessel"?
- Thread starter charliegrau
- Start date
"PROPELLED BY MACHINERY"
Not under command is for a vessel that has a disability that renders it unable to make way in a controlled manner. If you lost your rudder you would be not under command. Being propelled by machinery is the only time you are a "power boat", in that respect you are exactly correct.
The big issue here is that you are all assuming that the other boat KNOWS the RULES. You should all be helming as if no one else has a clue about the rules wether you are a sail or power boater. If they did they would make their intentions know early enough as to have no doubt that they understand the rules and the situation, as you should do when helming.
I was one of the people talking about this in the other thread and thought I would state my opinion here as well.
Under the Colregs, a boat with the engine running but in neutral is considered a power-driven vessel. This is because your engines are available for immediate maneuvering. The example that was used in my captain's class and was on my test is a power boat in neutral drifting. This vessel would be the stand on or give way based on it's position in the pecking order and its position relative to other vessels.
So if a group of guys are fishing off of a 45 foot power boat and they have the engines on but are drifting while they cast lines and another power boat is approaching them from their starboard, the guys fishing are obligated to put their engines in gear and get out of the way.
The same holds for sailboats with the sails up and engine on in neutral. You can engage your engine since it is on and available for immediate maneuvering.
You can argue about the other guy being able to see your exhaust or propeller or what ever but if an incident occurs and you had your engine running and you didn't act as a power-driven vessel you will very likely be found at fault.
As others have mentioned there is a day marker, cone with the apex pointed down, that you should be displaying if you have your sails up and engine on during the day to signal to other boaters what your designation is (i.e. a power-driven vessel). At night you would do this by turning on your steaming light.
Good luck and fair winds,
Jesse
Under the Colregs, a boat with the engine running but in neutral is considered a power-driven vessel. This is because your engines are available for immediate maneuvering. The example that was used in my captain's class and was on my test is a power boat in neutral drifting. This vessel would be the stand on or give way based on it's position in the pecking order and its position relative to other vessels.
So if a group of guys are fishing off of a 45 foot power boat and they have the engines on but are drifting while they cast lines and another power boat is approaching them from their starboard, the guys fishing are obligated to put their engines in gear and get out of the way.
The same holds for sailboats with the sails up and engine on in neutral. You can engage your engine since it is on and available for immediate maneuvering.
You can argue about the other guy being able to see your exhaust or propeller or what ever but if an incident occurs and you had your engine running and you didn't act as a power-driven vessel you will very likely be found at fault.
As others have mentioned there is a day marker, cone with the apex pointed down, that you should be displaying if you have your sails up and engine on during the day to signal to other boaters what your designation is (i.e. a power-driven vessel). At night you would do this by turning on your steaming light.
Good luck and fair winds,
Jesse
I'd like to see the exact law. everything I read is a repost or interpretation of USCG rules of road.
While engines may be running, there is no way we would engage the transmission, during a race, because that would be a disqualification.
I don't see how any court of law would consider a racing sailboat a powered vessel.
it doesn't pass the smell test.
-that said, we always follow the tonnage rule.
While engines may be running, there is no way we would engage the transmission, during a race, because that would be a disqualification.
I don't see how any court of law would consider a racing sailboat a powered vessel.
it doesn't pass the smell test.
-that said, we always follow the tonnage rule.
# 23 gave us a synopsis of the colregs, but, yeah, I'd rather see a cut-and-paste posting of the rule. Ted helps, but not sure those are his words, or are word-for-word.
It always amazes me when people, like the OP, ask a question that should be answered by looking up the governing rules/laws. OPINIONS are no good when you try to defend your actions in court.
This is certainly one use for NOC, but when I was single handing and needed extended sleep, I would bring down the gear and run the NUC lights. You do not need to be disabled to be 'not under command', just not under command.
What amazes me are the number of so-called vessel instructors who don't know the COLREGS, or the simple definition of power vs. sailing vessels. Makes me wonder who is running the training programs or writing the tests. Way to much confusion, starting at the head of the classrooms.
From the CPLREGS:
(a) The word “vessel” includes every description of water craft, including nondisplacement craft, WIG craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
Seems a lawyer could argue it either way. My opinion is engine on - I'm a powerboat
(a) The word “vessel” includes every description of water craft, including nondisplacement craft, WIG craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
Seems a lawyer could argue it either way. My opinion is engine on - I'm a powerboat
You can become an instructor, typically, with a demonstration of knowledge/competence of 70% of the material. It's a pass/fail situation. Few would ever make it at 100% competence if needed to "pass." Remember the old joke--What do they call the guy who finishes at the bottom of his class at medical school? Doctor!
Maybe you've run into some of 'em!
Everything I have read in any of my studies state that if the engine is running regardless if it is being used for propulsion you are considered a vessel under power.
I would expect that "power-driven" and "propelling machinery" would be clearly explained to note for students that the terms "engine running" were excluded from the definition of a powered vessel. And maybe, why that distinction is important to the practice of sailboating.
We had 4 different instructors when we took our captain's license classes. One was the owner of the school. One instructor was great. He had an unbelievable grasp of the subjects, knew when situations like this were not fulled explained in the COLREGS and expanded on it, covered the material very well. He had been teaching the course for over 20 years, tons of real world experience and was a general good guy. The owner was pretty good as well.
Two of the instructors were absolutely horrible. The didn't know the info. Just read from the books. Confused people on a number of points because they were wrong. At one point I actually got up and my wife and I walked out because he was starting to confuse us on points we already knew because he was presenting it wrong.
So I agree with you completely. It seems like they will certify almost anyone to teach the course.
Racing in no way alleviates you from the responsibilities of the COLREGS. If you refused to engage your engine or take other actions necessary to avoid a collision you would absolutely be found at fault.
Actually--not always true. If you're sailboat racing and you have a crossing situation with a vessel that's not part of the race, then COLREGS would apply. However, if you're racing and a situation arises involving another boat in the same race, then the RRS applies- "The Racing Rules of Sailing." This is b/c parties to the race have agreed to following THOSE rules as a condition of racing. Evidently, a court case or two has supported that concept.
A long-held concern that people don't know the COLREGS has now morphed into an even greater concern that people who actually "study" the rules are confused by what they "state". What study materials are you referencing?
Here is the PDF of the COLREGS. Take a read through the 226 pages. But good luck trying to interpret everything without any guidance.
As to some of the definitions that are being discussed:
So to the poster who said they call themselves a vessel not under command when then go to take a nap while sailing solo, good luck defending that in court if anything ever happens. There is plenty of case law that has cited solo sailors for failure to maintain a proper lookout. And you don't meet the definition of the rules.
Here are two words you will find nowhere in the COLREGS: neutral; transmission. There is discussion of underway, not making way but that is only related to lights and day shapes.
If you are moving through the water you are underway. If your engine is running while underway you are a power-driven vessel. If you are a sailboat and your engine is off and sails are hoisted, you are a sailing vessel.
I would like to see some citations for this because a quick google search shows otherwise. From just looking at a couple of regulations you see statements like:
c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
Anyone could argue that the phrase "not being used" means "not being used [for propulsion.]" That's clearly implied. If a sailboater lost his propeller or bent his prop shaft in going from point a to b, and sailed into a harbor with the engine running in neutral to maintain battery charge, it would be ludicrous to argue that he was a "power-driven vessel" b/c his engine was idling.
Anyone could argue that the phrase "not being used" means "not being used [for propulsion.]" That's clearly implied. If a sailboater lost his propeller or bent his prop shaft in going from point a to b, and sailed into a harbor with the engine running in neutral to maintain battery charge, it would be ludicrous to argue that he was a "power-driven vessel" b/c his engine was idling.
Sure, if your gear was damaged in someway I am sure you would have a case that you didn't act as a power driven vessel. But simply because you refuse to put it in gear is not going to hold up.
I find this thread pretty interesting. Everyone knows he is right. All I know to be true is that everyone is obligated to do everything possible to avoid a collision. Hmmm. I guess I now fall into the category of "knowing he is right."
We had a horrible collision involving death on a nearby lake at night. Public opinion has already convicted the speeding bass boat after midnight. We also had a case on a non-local lake that involved death of a waterskier after dark. My next door neighbors and their friends were convicted by local-to-the-lake-opinion because of their incomes. Crazy stuff.
We had a horrible collision involving death on a nearby lake at night. Public opinion has already convicted the speeding bass boat after midnight. We also had a case on a non-local lake that involved death of a waterskier after dark. My next door neighbors and their friends were convicted by local-to-the-lake-opinion because of their incomes. Crazy stuff.