In other thread I saw a couple of sposts stating that a sailing vessel should be considered a power driven vessel if the engine is running, whether or not the transmission is in gear. So...who agrees, who disagrees, and why?
When are you a "power driven vessel"?
- Thread starter charliegrau
- Start date
if the sails are not up, and not at anchor, I would say the boat would need to be considered a power driven vessel.
(assuming a boat too large to row/paddle).
-especially for lighting issues. (steaming light on when sails are not up, ie.,waiting for a bridge).
(assuming a boat too large to row/paddle).
-especially for lighting issues. (steaming light on when sails are not up, ie.,waiting for a bridge).
Yep, motor running, power vessel.
You've got the immediate potential to put the vessel in gear and move. Whether your transmission will or will not allow that... If the transmission doesn't work, and you are incapable of sailing with intention, then you'd probably be required to make a pan pan call on VHF to alert other vessels that you are disabled and a potential hazard to navigation.
It's kinda like the logic of a DUI. If you're sitting there in the car, in the driver's seat, and the keys are in the ignition, even if the car isn't running, you could still be tagged for DUI. Maybe even if the keys are in your pocket.
You've got the immediate potential to put the vessel in gear and move. Whether your transmission will or will not allow that... If the transmission doesn't work, and you are incapable of sailing with intention, then you'd probably be required to make a pan pan call on VHF to alert other vessels that you are disabled and a potential hazard to navigation.
It's kinda like the logic of a DUI. If you're sitting there in the car, in the driver's seat, and the keys are in the ignition, even if the car isn't running, you could still be tagged for DUI. Maybe even if the keys are in your pocket.
Per COLREGS,
The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used
Not wanting to come across as a sea lawyer, if you're running the engine solely for the purposes of charging the batteries, does that count as use?
The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used
Not wanting to come across as a sea lawyer, if you're running the engine solely for the purposes of charging the batteries, does that count as use?
that makes a LOT more sense.
I posted in the streaming light tread, we will run the engine in neutral to charge the batteries when (distance) racing.
-We (should) still maintain sailing vessel rights, since we are not using the engine for anything other than charging batteries.
(I THINK) showing a streaming light would be wrong in that case.
I posted in the streaming light tread, we will run the engine in neutral to charge the batteries when (distance) racing.
-We (should) still maintain sailing vessel rights, since we are not using the engine for anything other than charging batteries.
(I THINK) showing a streaming light would be wrong in that case.
No, you remain a sailboat and more to the point of the original question, you light your boat like a sailboat so that other boaters understand your sail-driven motion and maneuverability.
Whether the tranny and prop shaft is engaged or not is likely irrelevant. If the engine is On and the boat is moving it would be a hard case to make that the boat is not being operated under power. If exhaust smoke and sound confer to others the idea that the boat is being powered then you are a power boat in their eyes and you will be expected to behave as such. I have encountered instances during motor sailing where other boats have deferred to me as a vessel under sail because they probably could not have observed my engine was running. Such actions just add to safety but they do not relieve me of the responsibility of behaving as a powered vessel. In case of an accident a court of law will make the determination whether the boat was powered vessel or not.
A sailboat under sail and power isn't a sailboat!
Benny, good points. A couple of weeks ago, I was out sailing - port tack. A sailboat approached me from starboard, starboard tack, under full sail. I fell off to honor his starboard tack. As I crossed under his stern, I discovered that he had his outboard engine running and in the water. I was not amused to have given way to a sailboat under sail AND power. He clearly did not behave as a powered vessel.
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You REALLY wouldn't have been amused if you had collided, right-of-way or not. If you observe a pending collision and do nothing because you "have the right-of-way" you will be found partially at fault, and bear liability. The point of these rules is to better ensure accident-free boating, not to help you win an argument.
If you're "behaving as a power-driven" sailing vessel during daylight with your sails up and drawing, you should have hoisted the appropriate day shape that communicates your status. That is your first responsibility; not to maneuver as a power-driven vessel that depends on the other guy detecting exhaust or water discharge to learn your status and anticipate your maneuvers.
its not a matter of whether we agree or not, or what our arguments may be in support of what we wish were the case, the law says if the engine is running and we are not tied stationary to something, we are considered to be "under power". with the wording as it is, it makes no difference if the sails are up, or if we are drifting around in neutral.
there is no reason to overthink it or look for a way around it, but just accept it for what it is.
and if you act accordingly and DONT assume that no one will notice or otherwise care that you have the engine running, you wont ever get in trouble because of it...
its just a simply written rule that is easy for anyone to understand the meaning of.... and even if you dont agree with it, its still the law.
its much better to know the rules/laws and give way to the other vessel, rather than be in doubt while attempting to stand your ground because you think the other guy wont notice or care about your status...
the fact is, if more people were courteous and aware enough of their surroundings and fellow boaters, we wouldnt need to have things like this dictated to us
there is no reason to overthink it or look for a way around it, but just accept it for what it is.
and if you act accordingly and DONT assume that no one will notice or otherwise care that you have the engine running, you wont ever get in trouble because of it...
its just a simply written rule that is easy for anyone to understand the meaning of.... and even if you dont agree with it, its still the law.
its much better to know the rules/laws and give way to the other vessel, rather than be in doubt while attempting to stand your ground because you think the other guy wont notice or care about your status...
the fact is, if more people were courteous and aware enough of their surroundings and fellow boaters, we wouldnt need to have things like this dictated to us
Argument not Entirely Academic
It’s not always academic. Just yesterday my wife and I sailed across the SB Channel from Santa Cruz Island to Ventura Harbor. The wind was W at 12-15 kt. From the head marker we were on a broad reach [to the true wind] going down the harbor channel until being forced to gybe to a southeasterly course toward our marina. The genoa was furled to keep our speed down but the main was full up. The engine was OFF; not unusual for us when entering the Harbor on a good breeze. We planned to gybe near the end of the harbor channel a boat length (40 ft) before a shoal marker, which would bring us up nicely on starboard tack toward mid-fairway with decent way on. Approaching the shoal marker from the southeast [off our starboard bow] is a guy in a sailboat who is motoring with furled sails. He was barely slowing down, heading right for us, and did not appear to anticipate our forced gybe coming up. I hailed him twice that we were about to gybe which would put us on a course right at his bow only a few boat lengths away but with no acknowledgement from him. My wife, who was helming, asked for instructions to which I replied “we’re gybing”, and did so—perfectly! At the last few seconds before a potential collision the guy ducked under our port side—there being barely enough room.
In light of our discussions the following might be surmised. Sailboats frequently motor in the harbor channel, outbound and inbound, with the mainsail up. It’s a common, widespread practice to do so just about everywhere I’ve been. Of course, day shapes are almost never displayed. To him, I may well have appeared to be just another motoring sailboat with my mainsail up and therefore under burden to AVOID HIM, given that he was approaching me from starboard side under power, etc. And suppose we collided or sideswiped? Who would be at fault, or bear most of it—he or I?
I can just hear some lawyer saying the following, which would be true. “Yes, Mr. KG, you were clearly aware that the plaintiff was motoring, were you not?” “Yes.” “Given the common practice of sailboats entering harbors under power with their mainsails up, would it be fair to say that the plaintiff could have perceived you to be a ‘power-driven vessel’ and under burden to avoid him?” “It’s possible, I suppose.” “Therefore, Mr. KG, could it not be said that YOU had the last clear opportunity to avoid the collision by having the better grasp of the crossing situation? That you could have gybed earlier, or could have switched on your diesel in a second or two to avoid the plaintiff’s vessel?” “Uh, I suppose. But all he had to do was STOP and allow me to complete by gybe. I did hail him! I was not flying a day shape--he should have known!” Etc…
It’s not always academic. Just yesterday my wife and I sailed across the SB Channel from Santa Cruz Island to Ventura Harbor. The wind was W at 12-15 kt. From the head marker we were on a broad reach [to the true wind] going down the harbor channel until being forced to gybe to a southeasterly course toward our marina. The genoa was furled to keep our speed down but the main was full up. The engine was OFF; not unusual for us when entering the Harbor on a good breeze. We planned to gybe near the end of the harbor channel a boat length (40 ft) before a shoal marker, which would bring us up nicely on starboard tack toward mid-fairway with decent way on. Approaching the shoal marker from the southeast [off our starboard bow] is a guy in a sailboat who is motoring with furled sails. He was barely slowing down, heading right for us, and did not appear to anticipate our forced gybe coming up. I hailed him twice that we were about to gybe which would put us on a course right at his bow only a few boat lengths away but with no acknowledgement from him. My wife, who was helming, asked for instructions to which I replied “we’re gybing”, and did so—perfectly! At the last few seconds before a potential collision the guy ducked under our port side—there being barely enough room.
In light of our discussions the following might be surmised. Sailboats frequently motor in the harbor channel, outbound and inbound, with the mainsail up. It’s a common, widespread practice to do so just about everywhere I’ve been. Of course, day shapes are almost never displayed. To him, I may well have appeared to be just another motoring sailboat with my mainsail up and therefore under burden to AVOID HIM, given that he was approaching me from starboard side under power, etc. And suppose we collided or sideswiped? Who would be at fault, or bear most of it—he or I?
I can just hear some lawyer saying the following, which would be true. “Yes, Mr. KG, you were clearly aware that the plaintiff was motoring, were you not?” “Yes.” “Given the common practice of sailboats entering harbors under power with their mainsails up, would it be fair to say that the plaintiff could have perceived you to be a ‘power-driven vessel’ and under burden to avoid him?” “It’s possible, I suppose.” “Therefore, Mr. KG, could it not be said that YOU had the last clear opportunity to avoid the collision by having the better grasp of the crossing situation? That you could have gybed earlier, or could have switched on your diesel in a second or two to avoid the plaintiff’s vessel?” “Uh, I suppose. But all he had to do was STOP and allow me to complete by gybe. I did hail him! I was not flying a day shape--he should have known!” Etc…
In point of fact, if your propelling machinery is not engaged in motivating the vessel, you are NOT under power. If your engine is running, to charge batteries, or for any other reason, but NOT propelling the vessel, then you are NOT a motor vessel.
If your sails are down and your engine is on, but not engaged in propelling the vessel, then you are a vessel not under command, which is a completely different set of lights.
Many cruisers will run their engine out of gear, while under sail to charge batteries, run watermakers or refrigeration, but they are still being propelled by their sails and therefor should be lit as a sailboat.
It's all about what is making the boat go, and the expected maneuverability of the vessel, under the rules.
If your sails are down and your engine is on, but not engaged in propelling the vessel, then you are a vessel not under command, which is a completely different set of lights.
Many cruisers will run their engine out of gear, while under sail to charge batteries, run watermakers or refrigeration, but they are still being propelled by their sails and therefor should be lit as a sailboat.
It's all about what is making the boat go, and the expected maneuverability of the vessel, under the rules.
Not so. The law refers to "power-driven" when defining the difference between sail and power, and relevant lighting schemes. The law says nothing about the engine running. If your sailboat isn't being propelled by a motor you are not "under power". And it is important to understand this, because sailboats under power can be anticipated to behave differently than under sail. And that is the entire point of the COLREGS lighting requirements.
im not taking this out of concept, as i have read your entire post, but it seems that unless someone posts the actual law as its written in the law books, here, everyone will continue to have their own idea of what the facts are, BECAUSE there are so many places on the internet that have a bit different interpretations posted by authoritative people....
im not sure that this is the explanation of the actual law as it is written in the books, or just someone elses interpretation, but I have personally this read in a marine "rules of the road" manual, that regardless of why the engine is running, if you are under way and the engine is running, you are considered to be under power. period.
the explanation given there was was because its assumed by the law that so many people will be tempted to engage the transmission when the engine is running and charging batteries so that they can take advantage of the otherwise wasted power, and in addition, with the engine running, you have the ability to out maneuver and better avoid conflict with the other vessel at the shift of a lever.
and it may also be assumed by the law, that if there is an accident with a motor sailing vessel and a non motor sailing vessel, any argument that is given as to whether the yacht was actually under power cannot have the excuse that it was only running the generator and not actually in gear...
it is a fine line between "what it is" and "what it appears to be".... I think the reasoning here is to take any excuses or temptations out of the equation.
but none of this makes a difference or care unless you are situation where there is a close call and you are either the cause of it, or you take the advantage at someone elses expense, and it is found that your engine was running and available to prevent the situation...
•Engine running
•Sails Unfurled
•Obvious Gybe
•No Sails
•Engine propelling with sails
Or any combination
As Captain ,you are to avoid collision and anticipate stupidity and ignorance of other Captains.
Ashore...
You have a Green light and an idiot runs the Red. Do you attempt to avoid a collision or not?
Rules or no rules.
Lay off the wind or power down. Smile and wave with all fingers and drink a beer.
Jim...
•Sails Unfurled
•Obvious Gybe
•No Sails
•Engine propelling with sails
Or any combination
As Captain ,you are to avoid collision and anticipate stupidity and ignorance of other Captains.
Ashore...
You have a Green light and an idiot runs the Red. Do you attempt to avoid a collision or not?
Rules or no rules.
Lay off the wind or power down. Smile and wave with all fingers and drink a beer.
Jim...
This is from the BoatUS website:
Vessel Types
•Power Driven Vessel - Any vessel propelled by machinery. This includes any boat that has an engine. Sailboats are considered powerboats when they have the engines on--even if the sails are up.
•Sailing Vessel - Any vessel under sail alone. Remember, the engine only has to be on for a sailboat to be considered a powerboat.
http://www.boatus.org/guide/navigation_2.html
Vessel Types
•Power Driven Vessel - Any vessel propelled by machinery. This includes any boat that has an engine. Sailboats are considered powerboats when they have the engines on--even if the sails are up.
•Sailing Vessel - Any vessel under sail alone. Remember, the engine only has to be on for a sailboat to be considered a powerboat.
http://www.boatus.org/guide/navigation_2.html
which kind of lends to support to what I had posted earlier....
"im not sure that this is the explanation of the actual law as it is written in the books, or just someone elses interpretation, but I have personally this read in a marine "rules of the road" manual, that regardless of why the engine is running, if you are under way and the engine is running, you are considered to be under power. period.
the explanation given there was was because its assumed by the law that so many people will be tempted to engage the transmission when the engine is running and charging batteries so that they can take advantage of the otherwise wasted power, and in addition, with the engine running, you have the ability to out maneuver and better avoid conflict with the other vessel at the shift of a lever.
and it may also be assumed by the law, that if there is an accident with a motor sailing vessel and a non motor sailing vessel, any argument that is given as to whether the yacht was actually under power cannot have the excuse that it was only running the generator and not actually in gear...
it is a fine line between "what it is" and "what it appears to be".... I think the reasoning here is to take any excuses or temptations out of the equation".