What's Your PFD policy?

[tom]

Sailing is Safe

Part of this problem might be a north south issue. Down south water is a refuge from the heat. We get into the water regularly and many if not most are good swimmers. Up north with a shorter season and colder water the water may not seem so friendly. We routinely float around the boat on cushions drinking beer if all adults. Motored over to a clift and let the kids jump off the rocks. Heck I used to run rapids in a river without a boat!!! Me and the kids used to snorkle down clear rivers..water is my friend.  Up north a fall off the boat is more likely to be fatal due to hypothermia. For what it's worth I went sailing yesterday with my grand kids ages 4 and 6. They had to put on their PFD's in the parking lot and keep them on except when below. When it got a little rough I tied them in the cockpitso they couldn't fall overboard since there was just one adult on board. Saturday when my son and the kids were there and the wind was light I let them run all over the boat. It was unlikely that they'd fall overboard and it would be a simple thing to fish them out. More importantly the water was warm it was clear calm and daylight. When my kids were young I was less protective because they both could swim like fish. Hopefully the grandkids will get into a swim class soon.  It is incredible that some people own a boat and can't swim. I've met some scuba divers that are weak swimmers...incredible. It is insane to be a poor or weak swimmer and not wear a PFD. But adults should be allowed to make decisions.

 

[mortyd]

pfd

i don't imagine this will get through to those who confuse safety and liberty, but half the people who go off sailboats are hurt seriously in the act and have any of you ever tried to find a bobbing head in real water conditions? try it sometime. even in warm water.

 

[John5961]

here is some interesting info

From the US Coast Guard statistical report for the 2005 boating season. Total registered vessels increased about 160,000 to 12,942,414 (since 2004) and there were 697 reported fatalities, 3,451 injuries, and 4,969 reported accidents. As one would expect, drownings accounted for the majority of fatalities at 491 of 697 of which 426 were not wearing PFD’s. Alchohol contributed to about 25% of fatal accidents (somewhat less than many people think)59% of fatalities were from falling overboard or capsizing Only 14 fatalities were sailboat crew/passengers. Careless/reckless operation was the biggest reason for boating accidentsMost accidents involved open motorboatsNote that the fatality rate has decreased every year since 1990 although the number of water craft has increased every year

 

[tom]

700 fatalities for 13,000,000 pretty good!!!

Only 700 fatalities for 13 million boaters is pretty safe. Only 14 sailers is even safer. Capsizing a dinghy should not be a big event. I've done it many times. Every time there was a lot of laughing by captain and crew. On a hot day getting dunked in cool water is pleasureable.... Even my Bucaneer 18 was easy to turn upright. My Laser and Sunfish were even easier. Riding a bicycle is really dangerous compared to sailing. I've seen broken arms and have had a case of road rash myself. Though no activity is idiot proof sailing is about as safe as it gets. Even when things got exciting yesterday we were only going about 7 knots. A funny thing happened whenwe were heeled and almost buryingthe rail. My grandaughter at the ripe old age of 4 on the leeward side lay on her belly to touch the water. Giggling in delight that the water was cool. Reminded me of her mom who took such times to lay back and wet her hair.....so many safe and happy days sailing..though not nearly enough. I remember the kids fighting over who got to jump overboard for the MOB practice. Bad things can happen but sailing is safe

 

[Richard19068]

Mortyd

Would you please cite the source for your comment that "half the people who go off sailboats are hurt seriously in the act"?Thanks.

 

[NautiDuck]

Don't requre PFDs

It is undeniable that seat belts save lives. It is undeniable that helmets on cyclists and motorcyclists save lives. It is undeniable that PFDs save lives. But there is a difference in whether they should be legally mandated. I support the mandated wearing of seat belts and helmets because the potential for devastating injuries - and subsequent cost to the public health system - justifies that society protect itself from the financial impacts. PFDs on the other hand, don't protect from serious injury. They basically just save your life. Not wearing one means you may drown and yes, there may be a search but those costs are nothing compared to providing health care to a cyclist with a bashed-in brain.So, my rule is you must wear a PFD on my boat at all times (inside the cabin too) and the skipper never drinks. But, if someone else chooses to risk their own life on their own boat that is their business. Selfish but legal.

 

[John5961]

Half?

hey mortydWhat is the source for that claim? Sounds bogus to me. Did you just make it up?

 

[tom]

drown doesn't always mean drown

If you die in cold water I think that is also called drowning but first hypothermia makes you unable to swim. Even if you have on a life jacket and die of hypothermis I think that is also called a drowning. If you want to save lives it might be good to require at least wetsuits any time the water temperature is below 75 degrees...sure you sweat and are uncomfortable but it might save lives.  I am all for reasonable. But most drownings are of small children. More drown in bathtubs or ornamental pools than while sailing. Backyard swimmingpools are a major hazard. I think that the government should assume that most people are reasonable and are able to make decisions for themselves. The seatbelt issue is troubling. I know people that were saved from death or injury by seatbelts I also know of people that are dead and would probably be alive if they were wearing a seatbelt. But sailing is much much much much less dangerous than driving a car down a crowded street or highway at high speeds. I have had three instances where wearing a seatbelt saved me from death or severe injury. But I've never fallen off aboat and never felt that I was about to drown while boating. I've never known anyone to fall off their boat. But Ive only been sailing about 30 years. I've continuosly owned a sailboat for 15 of the last 17 years. I've owned some sort of boat for 35 years. Owned some sort of sailboat 31 out of the last 35 years. Usually I've owned some combination of kayaks,canoes,windsurfers and sailboats. I have had PFD's probably save my life while kayaking class four whitewater..but that's not sailing.

 

[Rick]

How safe do you want to be

So if a helmet is safer than none~But not riding motorcycle is safer that riding... maybe we shouldn't rideAnd Sailing with a PFD in or out of the cabin is safer than not wearing a PFD~But being on the water is a higher risk than not.... maybe we should all stay on landIf having your seat belt on is safer than not and going 55 is also safer~Maybe we should all drive only tanks that run 55 MPH or less that have full body air bags and try to drive as little as we can.You people kill me. At any one time in Tampa Bay there are 1000's of boats out. The only time I see PFD's are on commercial boats, kids and dogs. Get over your "god like" ego as a captain and realize that you may not have all the answers for all the boats in all the waters.

 

[Bob V]

Is it really true, mortyd?

Do half of all people who fall off of sailboats get seriously injured. I guess we should all dress like we are going for a ride on a motorcyle with the addition of a pfd. That ought to have some impact on this statistic.By the way did you know that 15/16 ths of all statistics that you see on the internet are made up by the person that writes them?

 

[NautiDuck]

Gee Rick

Huh? The point is that simple things can make a big difference. It takes no effort to wear a seat belt, put on a helmet, or don a PFD. And yet, these devices provide for a much greater level of safety while we do the things we enjoy. I don't care what the other boats do or don't do regarding PFDs. But, on my boat I am in charge and I do what I think is right. Most of the people I know with ego problems are the ones who think it is macho to do foolish things.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Profiles......

I am an advocate of filling out your profiles on here. I'm not as paranoid as some others are about letting their identity be known. For one thing, there may be other members of this forum that have boats in the same marina as you.Would help keep some people honest about their posts and all that they preach. Tony B

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mis]

Randy.......

"But, on my boat I am in charge and I do what I think is right. Most of the people I know with ego problems are the ones who think it is macho to do foolish things." Now why didnt I think of wording it that way?Sometimes I dont always do what I think is right, and unfortunately, its out of laziness. I think there are more talkers on here than sailors. Some would have you think that they wear full body armor. I am not the best on safety, but I do insist on GF and myself wearing life jackets when the weather kicks up. When solo sailing, I do wear a harness when going forward. But again, lazyness kicks in when others are on board, the false sense of security thing. Although I'm an advocate of safety, I'm not a preacher or fanatic name caller, just a normal name caller. Anyway, Randy, nice call. IMHO Tony B

 

[NautiDuck]

Tony

Thanks for mentioning the profiles. I looked at mine and had some wrong info. I also admit that safety is importnat to me. There are enough things that can go wrong in life so why not take care of the things that you can, especially when they are easy? I guess that is what bugs me about PFDs. The technology has gotten so good that the devices are simple to wear and are small. If nothing else wear one of the new belt PFDs. I just don't get it and that makes me think it is stubborness or not wanting to be told what to do.

 

[LancerDude]

Mistakes Kill 2...

We are fortunate in that MOST mistakes we make in this endeavor we call sailing don't get people killed..and,hopefully,not even hurt anything more than gel-coat or ego.I feel for this person and his family.I can only hope that they find some peace in the knowledge that he died doing what he enjoyed most in life..I can only hope to go as well myself.We all make mistakes..and sometimes at the worst possible time..then,there are the consequences to face.Learn from this guy..learn from the next guy..just DONT BE THE TEACHER. Fair Winds Brothers>>> David

 

[Stu Jackson]

The next step should be gov't mandates

for dodgers. After all, it sometimes gets windy and spray flies and we wouldn't want the boaters to get wet.

 

[Bilbo]

PFDs

I think that a smart sailor would probably buy one of those self-inflatable PFDs and wear the thing. People have been known to fall of docks and drown because they can't get back out of the water. I canoe as well as sail and the PFD is required for the canoe so I just do it. Like wearing a seat belt in a car. It just makes sense so that they can find the body easier after the fact. Throw alcohol into the mix and it increases the odds of falling in and then if the water's cold, hypothermia. Accidents just happen no matter what size tie boat is. We had a local fall off a cruise ship and drown. I think that the video caught him drunk and ralphing overboard shortly before he was never seen again.

 

[Jim]

RE: self-inflatable

Still not comfortable!

 

[Malcolm Young]

Tom S - Statistics and other comments

First - I have already stated my view on wearing PFDs back near the beginning of this thread - my very strong preference is that they be worn all the time if we are underway - and I believe that the captain of the vessel is responsible for making that decision depending on their assessment of the circumstances and should be held responsible for that. However, I do not accept that there should be a law to wear PFDs. Now for comments on your post Tom. First I always read your posts as they are usually well researched and clearly outline your thoughts which are always worth considering. I always like facts and statistics (as long as the method of gathering is known). The problem with statistics is people often (sometime subconsciously) interpret them to support their own point of view.For example the statistics you quote on drownings to support there are far fewer drownings on bigger boats. I would submit that there are fewer drownings on big boats because there are fewer big boats. I will take two of the figures quoted for illustration and add information on number of boats:# of drownings of a boat Less than 16 feet = 226 - number of boats =5,221,276# of drownings of a boat 26 feet to less than 40 feet = 21 - number of boats =478,869Looks to me like the rate of drownings (drownings per boat registered) is about the same irrespective of the size in these two categories.Hypothermia - I disagree, for a lot of reasons, with the comments that were based on the statistic that there were more cases of death by hypothermia among people wearing a life jacket than not. The statistics do seem to indicate this however there is no information provided that says what the length of immersion and temperature of the water for the two populations (those who died wearng PFDs and those who survived without PFDs). This again is using statistics without context. An example may illustrate why more people wearing PFDs die from hypothermia. For example I have noted that fishermen in small boats go out often in the summer without wearing PFDs but as the weather gets colder they are more inclined to wear PFDs (probably because they are too hot in the summer and cold in the fall) Keeping this in mind if they fall overboard while fishing in cold water they are more likely to suffer hypothermia (even with theh PFD on) and in addition they are much less likely to be rescued by others as there are very few boats out.Another point regarding the statistics re dying from hypothermia - it has been proven that people last longer before onset of hypothermmia if they are wearing a close fitting foam PFD than when trying to stay afloat swimming. A close fitting foam PFD helps maintain the core temperature . Hypothermia is caused by sub cooling the core body temperature. The PFDs that inflate are not close fitting but if it makes the difference between wearing vs not wearing then use the inflatable. I want to emphasize that is a whole lot better to have a floater coat with beavertail that can be pulled down to cover the groin area or better still a good dry suit.Another interpretation of the statistic on dying from hypothermia with a PFD on vs without - I would bet quite a bit that the statisitics of deaths by drowning include many who initially succumbed to hypothermia, could no longer swim and then drowned.Regarding delay of onset of hypothermia - when you swim you loose heat from your body faster and thus will sub cool the core faster. In fact the recommendation is that you adopt the HELP position (Heat Escape Lessening Posture) with knees pulled up to your chest, arms around the knees. This can only be adopted if you have a PFD on. (incidentally if you are sailing in rough conditions in cold water, as well as a PFD it is good to wear foul weather gear as if you fall overboard foulies hold a stagnant layer of water around your body which slows heat loss). These are facts that are born out by studies.Aren't statistics grand - they are good fodder for interpretation and discussion.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I think Phil's point was this isn't a

tennis match to bang the ball back and forth across the net (no pun intended!) like the Angst forum. OK, we've each made our points, let's just move on and not try to return refute others' points of view. Seems to make for more "content" that way.Thanks,Stu