What's wrong with the 'trim' on this boat?
- Thread starter RichH
- Start date
I think that's probably the second reef already. If there's too much sail I would think its time to lose one. But that's not a sail trim question.
It looks to me like this boat is on a beam reach. I would ease the sheets - not necessarily move the jib lead or the clew tension on the main. I would call it a beam reach because the tops of the sails are streaming to leeward almost perpendicular to the beam. They do not appear to be luffing. Easing the sheets would help stand the boat up and hopefully move forward. Easing may also get the boom out of the water.
Also, the jib seems to be set on the topping lift for the spinnaker pole or maybe the spinnaker halyard. It may not be possible to put enough halyard tension on to make the flat entry needed for the jib in a big breeze.
I'm awaiting Rich's answer because my 2 cents is too simple to make a stump the audience post. I didn't do much better on Mainesail's breaker question either.
It looks to me like this boat is on a beam reach. I would ease the sheets - not necessarily move the jib lead or the clew tension on the main. I would call it a beam reach because the tops of the sails are streaming to leeward almost perpendicular to the beam. They do not appear to be luffing. Easing the sheets would help stand the boat up and hopefully move forward. Easing may also get the boom out of the water.
Also, the jib seems to be set on the topping lift for the spinnaker pole or maybe the spinnaker halyard. It may not be possible to put enough halyard tension on to make the flat entry needed for the jib in a big breeze.
I'm awaiting Rich's answer because my 2 cents is too simple to make a stump the audience post. I didn't do much better on Mainesail's breaker question either.
Obviously, ‘any’ trim during overwhelming conditions that keeps the ‘bottom side down’ will be of benefit.
Conditions as ‘I see it” and why I chose this pic is that the boat is ‘pinned’ (cant open the main traveller any further to release pressure on the main) and with the boom nearly or partly submerged, this boat will probably have GREAT difficulty in heading up if the wind gets even stronger and holds the boom/mainsail into the water by wind pressure. In such overwhelming conditions and dragging the boom, one typically has to ‘bear off’ and ‘take ones medicine’ instead of turning into the wind … which would probably cause even more heeling when the boat starts to ‘trip’ over its keel and the jib ‘reattaches’ to ‘full flow’ power-up during the ‘head up’.
Just my opinion, and as many have also offered, it’s the jib thats over-twisted and the leech and aft sections of the jib are essentially 90° to the oncoming wind and is probably contributing to the excess heel and with little contribution to 'forward' motion. With all that aft section of the jib fully windloaded and at ~90° (overtrimmed foot) it certainly HAS to be pushing the bow to leeward and with little ‘forward drive’. If the boat ‘could’ go faster the boat would probably be able to more or less better ‘stand up’ due to the increased hull dynamics … and with less heel. I’ll bet they forgot to move the jib fairlead car forward when they ‘eased’ the jib when the winds became ~30kts and gusting probably ~40kts and dropped down from beat or close reach onto a beam reach 'for some fun'!!!!!!!
If the boat attempts to head up now that jib is probably going to power-up, cause even more heel and if they don’t quickly pull in the jibsheet quickly when turning /heading up…. possible sail cloth damage to boot.
If that fairlead would have been more forward it would have been easier to ‘blade out’ the jib in a more controlled manner and not have to go through a jib power-up when the jibs angle of attack becomes ‘better’.
To me, the mainsail trim looks quite good, you can see that the tiller is held nearly on the centerline so ‘helm balance’ is probably OK; but, with the poor jib shape … there’s obviously some ‘cross control’ going on; so possibly the main should go further outboard and more ‘bite’ from the jib should be taken in (pretty obvious for the over-twisted condition). Getting that main further ‘out’ would certainly result in less heel … but its now ‘trapped’ because of the excess heel.
Yes, indeed the boat is on a screaming beam reach, a “Nantucket Sleigh Ride”, and is indeed quite FUN (once you get used to such). I don’t know if the boat is a keel boat or a centerboarder; but, if the boat was a center-boarder or drop keel, pulling up the board or keel by about 50% or so would certainly help ‘trim’ conditions by allowing a bit more ‘skid’ and thus less heel; and then, one can more easily ‘blade-out’ with flat and more correctly twisted sails with the boat ‘standing up’ a bit more. With the board or drop keel partly up the boat if needing to ‘head up’ will more or less ‘skid’ around the turn and with less ‘keel’ to ‘trip over’. When on a screaming beam reach, you really don’t need all that amount of keel or CB, especially with CB partly retracted there will be less drag and less heel causing ‘better’ boatspeed.
In all probability this boat probably decided to ‘go down’ or bear off during a gust to increase it ‘planing speed’ (so its probably not a true displacement hull) …. but when doing so you really have to keep the boat ‘under’ the mast when doing so because if it ‘gets away from you’, youre in for a ‘dunkin’ …. and yes, the companionway seems to be closed up tight on this boat so no need to worry. FUN + a wee bit of adrenalin rush!
In summary of what I think, that jib fairlead car needs to go more forward ….
1. For more speed and less heel. ….. including ‘blading out’ the jib AND main to keep the boat ‘on her feet’ (more speed, until the boat, if it’s a keelboat, starts to ‘death wobble’ …. then definitely youre going to have to reef deeper, etc. ...... after the cockpit thoroughly drains out.)
2. To better be able to ‘blade out’ that jib if the wind gets even higher, just like you ‘blade out’ a mainsail by 'playing' its traveller!
That’s the way I see it and just my viewpoint; and as stated, any means … so you don’t broach or ‘turtle’ or broach or swamp and then sink is OK.
Just my opinion, your opinion is equally valid too.
Conditions as ‘I see it” and why I chose this pic is that the boat is ‘pinned’ (cant open the main traveller any further to release pressure on the main) and with the boom nearly or partly submerged, this boat will probably have GREAT difficulty in heading up if the wind gets even stronger and holds the boom/mainsail into the water by wind pressure. In such overwhelming conditions and dragging the boom, one typically has to ‘bear off’ and ‘take ones medicine’ instead of turning into the wind … which would probably cause even more heeling when the boat starts to ‘trip’ over its keel and the jib ‘reattaches’ to ‘full flow’ power-up during the ‘head up’.
Just my opinion, and as many have also offered, it’s the jib thats over-twisted and the leech and aft sections of the jib are essentially 90° to the oncoming wind and is probably contributing to the excess heel and with little contribution to 'forward' motion. With all that aft section of the jib fully windloaded and at ~90° (overtrimmed foot) it certainly HAS to be pushing the bow to leeward and with little ‘forward drive’. If the boat ‘could’ go faster the boat would probably be able to more or less better ‘stand up’ due to the increased hull dynamics … and with less heel. I’ll bet they forgot to move the jib fairlead car forward when they ‘eased’ the jib when the winds became ~30kts and gusting probably ~40kts and dropped down from beat or close reach onto a beam reach 'for some fun'!!!!!!!
If the boat attempts to head up now that jib is probably going to power-up, cause even more heel and if they don’t quickly pull in the jibsheet quickly when turning /heading up…. possible sail cloth damage to boot.
If that fairlead would have been more forward it would have been easier to ‘blade out’ the jib in a more controlled manner and not have to go through a jib power-up when the jibs angle of attack becomes ‘better’.
To me, the mainsail trim looks quite good, you can see that the tiller is held nearly on the centerline so ‘helm balance’ is probably OK; but, with the poor jib shape … there’s obviously some ‘cross control’ going on; so possibly the main should go further outboard and more ‘bite’ from the jib should be taken in (pretty obvious for the over-twisted condition). Getting that main further ‘out’ would certainly result in less heel … but its now ‘trapped’ because of the excess heel.
Yes, indeed the boat is on a screaming beam reach, a “Nantucket Sleigh Ride”, and is indeed quite FUN (once you get used to such). I don’t know if the boat is a keel boat or a centerboarder; but, if the boat was a center-boarder or drop keel, pulling up the board or keel by about 50% or so would certainly help ‘trim’ conditions by allowing a bit more ‘skid’ and thus less heel; and then, one can more easily ‘blade-out’ with flat and more correctly twisted sails with the boat ‘standing up’ a bit more. With the board or drop keel partly up the boat if needing to ‘head up’ will more or less ‘skid’ around the turn and with less ‘keel’ to ‘trip over’. When on a screaming beam reach, you really don’t need all that amount of keel or CB, especially with CB partly retracted there will be less drag and less heel causing ‘better’ boatspeed.
In all probability this boat probably decided to ‘go down’ or bear off during a gust to increase it ‘planing speed’ (so its probably not a true displacement hull) …. but when doing so you really have to keep the boat ‘under’ the mast when doing so because if it ‘gets away from you’, youre in for a ‘dunkin’ …. and yes, the companionway seems to be closed up tight on this boat so no need to worry. FUN + a wee bit of adrenalin rush!
In summary of what I think, that jib fairlead car needs to go more forward ….
1. For more speed and less heel. ….. including ‘blading out’ the jib AND main to keep the boat ‘on her feet’ (more speed, until the boat, if it’s a keelboat, starts to ‘death wobble’ …. then definitely youre going to have to reef deeper, etc. ...... after the cockpit thoroughly drains out.)
2. To better be able to ‘blade out’ that jib if the wind gets even higher, just like you ‘blade out’ a mainsail by 'playing' its traveller!
That’s the way I see it and just my viewpoint; and as stated, any means … so you don’t broach or ‘turtle’ or broach or swamp and then sink is OK.
Just my opinion, your opinion is equally valid too.
I agree with shemandr! The waves are parallel with boat which puts the point of sail on a beam reach. The lower part of the main definitely looks like it is becoming back winded but might just be the photo. Other then that it is hard to say since the sails are sheeted in way to far. IMHO
I keep coming back to this thread to look at that photo. To me it just has excitement written all over it and the confidence the crew appears to have in themselves and the equipment is very appealing - even if their trim is a little off. Somehow they look like they are willing to deal with the consequences of their actions. They look quite comfortable.
We like to sail hard at times and I so wish I could get off the boat and take photos of the action - especially when the rail is in the water. Maybe we should have bought a Laser to start with....
Good Times
We like to sail hard at times and I so wish I could get off the boat and take photos of the action - especially when the rail is in the water. Maybe we should have bought a Laser to start with....
Good Times
never mind Rich
blade as in dagger board or keel board and out as in less in the water
Gota learn me to read better!
blade as in dagger board or keel board and out as in less in the water
Gota learn me to read better!
Bill -
'blading out' is all about sails, not keels or boards, etc.
To 'Blade out' is when a sail is shaped as absolutely as flat as possible for the conditions, and with little as 'needed' camber and as little draft as 'needed' to prevent 'surprise' power-ups when overpowered. To blade out, the entire vertical sections should slowly and simultaneously across the whole vertical plane of the sail (top to bottom, simultaneously) release their flow attachment when the sheets are released/eased or when the boat is so steered 'up'. etc. ... this would be in the same manner as how one sets up the correct fore/aft position for a jib fair lead car .... you want the 'entire' luff to 'break' simultaneously when you either ease a sheet or slightly 'head up' by steering. A rigid 'flat plate' would be the easiest to 'blade out'.
To operate, you slowly release the sheet until 'just' the exact amount of flow attachment is desired ... usually quite easy to do because of little draft and little 'twist', an analogy would be partly feathering the prop on an aircraft.
Releasing a twisted-off sail can result in sudden power-ups depending exactly where the airflow is still attached (or not) and if the sail is grossly over-twisted invariably the foot section will be well over trimmed causing nothing more than 'side forces' and additional heel and/or leeward skid.
With over-twist usually only mid panels (from the 'bottom') are flowing correctly, the head totally flogging, and the foot grossly over-trimmed .... why I dont like 'twisted sails' in stink conditions is .. when you 'release' that over-trimmed bottom section it now becomes 'active' aerodynamically ... and thus more surface area available to 'power up'. .... its the bottom of a triangle that contains the 'bulk' of the entire surface area (down where the centroid of area is) !!!!!!!
Just look at that jib in post #1 and describe for yourself where and how much 'draft' that sail has ... 'overall' that draft is 'tremendous' due to the twist; and if aerodynamics is correct, we know that BIG draft is for SLOW sailing or flying (when landing, actually). If that jib in the pic was the wing on an aircraft .... I'm sure someone would make the observation: "all powered up and set up with full flaps down (radical increase in draft) ready to land"; .... not for 'speed' flying/sailing.
'Blading out' the sails is a very common tactic on the larger planing hull sport boats that DO NOT REEF, but rather use 'bendable spars' to flatten and remove as much 'draft and so-called twist, etc. Boats that use a clubfoot or hoytboom can easily set up to safely 'blade out', .... just like its quite easy to 'blade out' a mainsail that has proper 'flattish' draft shape & outhaul, etc. tension, etc.
You dont get the sometimes violent shaking of the entire sail/boat when 'blading out' as you do with an overly twisted-off and over-trimmed foot ... as usually there 'some' full air flow attachment along somewhere in the entire vertical plane.
In the extreme, ice boats are probably the best examples who use 'blade-out' techniques ... to control excess heel and to control speed as well as the amount of 'lift'.
But but but ... blading-out isn't 'trimming', and trimming (on a sail TRIM forum) was the original 'thought' that caused this 'thread'.
A true 'blade' on a sailboat is a jib is somewhere near 50-70% (or less) LP, but its usually a full 'up to the top' luff length sail.
;-)
'blading out' is all about sails, not keels or boards, etc.
To 'Blade out' is when a sail is shaped as absolutely as flat as possible for the conditions, and with little as 'needed' camber and as little draft as 'needed' to prevent 'surprise' power-ups when overpowered. To blade out, the entire vertical sections should slowly and simultaneously across the whole vertical plane of the sail (top to bottom, simultaneously) release their flow attachment when the sheets are released/eased or when the boat is so steered 'up'. etc. ... this would be in the same manner as how one sets up the correct fore/aft position for a jib fair lead car .... you want the 'entire' luff to 'break' simultaneously when you either ease a sheet or slightly 'head up' by steering. A rigid 'flat plate' would be the easiest to 'blade out'.
To operate, you slowly release the sheet until 'just' the exact amount of flow attachment is desired ... usually quite easy to do because of little draft and little 'twist', an analogy would be partly feathering the prop on an aircraft.
Releasing a twisted-off sail can result in sudden power-ups depending exactly where the airflow is still attached (or not) and if the sail is grossly over-twisted invariably the foot section will be well over trimmed causing nothing more than 'side forces' and additional heel and/or leeward skid.
With over-twist usually only mid panels (from the 'bottom') are flowing correctly, the head totally flogging, and the foot grossly over-trimmed .... why I dont like 'twisted sails' in stink conditions is .. when you 'release' that over-trimmed bottom section it now becomes 'active' aerodynamically ... and thus more surface area available to 'power up'. .... its the bottom of a triangle that contains the 'bulk' of the entire surface area (down where the centroid of area is) !!!!!!!
Just look at that jib in post #1 and describe for yourself where and how much 'draft' that sail has ... 'overall' that draft is 'tremendous' due to the twist; and if aerodynamics is correct, we know that BIG draft is for SLOW sailing or flying (when landing, actually). If that jib in the pic was the wing on an aircraft .... I'm sure someone would make the observation: "all powered up and set up with full flaps down (radical increase in draft) ready to land"; .... not for 'speed' flying/sailing.
'Blading out' the sails is a very common tactic on the larger planing hull sport boats that DO NOT REEF, but rather use 'bendable spars' to flatten and remove as much 'draft and so-called twist, etc. Boats that use a clubfoot or hoytboom can easily set up to safely 'blade out', .... just like its quite easy to 'blade out' a mainsail that has proper 'flattish' draft shape & outhaul, etc. tension, etc.
You dont get the sometimes violent shaking of the entire sail/boat when 'blading out' as you do with an overly twisted-off and over-trimmed foot ... as usually there 'some' full air flow attachment along somewhere in the entire vertical plane.
In the extreme, ice boats are probably the best examples who use 'blade-out' techniques ... to control excess heel and to control speed as well as the amount of 'lift'.
But but but ... blading-out isn't 'trimming', and trimming (on a sail TRIM forum) was the original 'thought' that caused this 'thread'.
A true 'blade' on a sailboat is a jib is somewhere near 50-70% (or less) LP, but its usually a full 'up to the top' luff length sail.
;-)
<BIG smile>
Stretch - I think you nailed it, as that total average *shape* on that twisted jib is definitely a D-cup.
The question then becomes: how do we make that D-cup into a 'training bra' and without changing it? :-o :-o :-O
Stretch - I think you nailed it, as that total average *shape* on that twisted jib is definitely a D-cup.
The question then becomes: how do we make that D-cup into a 'training bra' and without changing it? :-o :-o :-O
Thanks for posting this Rich; it has been very thought provoking for me. One thing I wondered about was the jib- what is it attached to? The boat looks like a masthead rig, yet the jib is attached mid mast. Also, I'm not familiar with the term "blade out". Am I correct in assuming this is to flatten the sail?
Not quite - 'blading out' is slowly letting out (or turning the boat) an already VERY flat and relatively 'untwisted' sail. The smaller the LP the better in the case of 'jibs'. There really isnt much need for twist during 'real heavy' air as the 'wind gradient' above the surface of the water is not as 'divergent' as when sailing in 'light' winds where 'twist' is an advantage.
That boat is probably a fractional rig ... you can see the small 'jumper struts' on the front of the mast just above the head of the jib. Jumper struts 'were' used exclusively on fractional rigs and were to help 'stiffen' the top section of the mast when the backstay was heavily tensioned or when the boat's sail plan was heavily windloaded. That long line that is forward of the jib is 'probably' a spinnaker halyard.
On a 'normal' (dacron) sail you can additionally flatten it by pulling 'heavy' halyard tension ... which moves the point where the maximum draft occurs towards the luff ... the sail shape then becomes 'draft forward'. A cunningham will do the almost same thing when 'overtensioned', a better method than 'hard' halyard tension, or in addition to heavy halyard strain.
In both 'extreme' adjustments the sail will become 'flattened' but there may develop a large 'crease' along or near the luff ... which is ignored.
Obviously to flatten down a mainsail, you need more outhaul and halyard/cunningham tension; not just one of the two but 'both'. And this applies to a mainsail that is reefed, too.
But beware, pulling too much tension on the outhaul can cause the leech section to 'hook up' and cause a rounded shape in the leech section .. not good for 'heavy air'.
Just the opposite happens when you over-tension the halyard/cunningham ... the leech section becomes 'tripped' or 'open' .... meaning FLATTER in shape AT the leech.
Also in this pic presented the waves are fairly flat so there isnt much need for 'full draft' sail shape, FLAT water and small waves equate to FLAT sails.
BIG waves usually require lots of draft (power) even when reefed, especially for going 'upwind' .... but thats an entirely 'nuther' discussion.
Hope this answers your question. If not, 'keep at it'. ;-)
That boat is probably a fractional rig ... you can see the small 'jumper struts' on the front of the mast just above the head of the jib. Jumper struts 'were' used exclusively on fractional rigs and were to help 'stiffen' the top section of the mast when the backstay was heavily tensioned or when the boat's sail plan was heavily windloaded. That long line that is forward of the jib is 'probably' a spinnaker halyard.
On a 'normal' (dacron) sail you can additionally flatten it by pulling 'heavy' halyard tension ... which moves the point where the maximum draft occurs towards the luff ... the sail shape then becomes 'draft forward'. A cunningham will do the almost same thing when 'overtensioned', a better method than 'hard' halyard tension, or in addition to heavy halyard strain.
In both 'extreme' adjustments the sail will become 'flattened' but there may develop a large 'crease' along or near the luff ... which is ignored.
Obviously to flatten down a mainsail, you need more outhaul and halyard/cunningham tension; not just one of the two but 'both'. And this applies to a mainsail that is reefed, too.
But beware, pulling too much tension on the outhaul can cause the leech section to 'hook up' and cause a rounded shape in the leech section .. not good for 'heavy air'.
Just the opposite happens when you over-tension the halyard/cunningham ... the leech section becomes 'tripped' or 'open' .... meaning FLATTER in shape AT the leech.
Also in this pic presented the waves are fairly flat so there isnt much need for 'full draft' sail shape, FLAT water and small waves equate to FLAT sails.
BIG waves usually require lots of draft (power) even when reefed, especially for going 'upwind' .... but thats an entirely 'nuther' discussion.
Hope this answers your question. If not, 'keep at it'. ;-)
Ok now I'm confused. If the jib is "bladed" and as flat as I can make it with the sheet and halyard..... and I let the sheet "out" (blading out) how would I maintain the flat bladed shape????? Easing the sheet will certianly add dept to the camber which is not what we want certianly.
In any case will not just easing the jib sheet depower the jib by reducing the angle of attack and camber? I know this has always been what happens when I east a sheet. Less angle of attack and no change in camber will still result in (for this case) less heeling force and more driving force bringing the apparent wind forward....... and standing the boat up.
thoughts?
In any case will not just easing the jib sheet depower the jib by reducing the angle of attack and camber? I know this has always been what happens when I east a sheet. Less angle of attack and no change in camber will still result in (for this case) less heeling force and more driving force bringing the apparent wind forward....... and standing the boat up.
thoughts?
Lets try it this way.
If my jib is overly twisted-up and I slowly release a sheet, those sections that were over trimmed will now pass through full aerodynamic efficiency regime (power-up), all the while those sections that were already flogging will continue to flog due to unattached flow, the small section that previously had attached flow will now start to flog.
Since a jib, etc. is usually 'triangular' the effect of power-up will be more stronger when those lower sections (near or below the centroid of area), and that were not with original attached flow but solely 'backwinding', now 'power up' due to the greater effective surface area of the 'bottom' of the triangle now delivers available for full attached flow.
The power-up occurs from where the flow was attached ... all the way down to the foot of the sail in a sequential or moving zone; and, may take some time in doing so in according to the speed of the release of easing of the sheet - takes time for flow attachment to occur.
'Blading out' is usually done with little twist in the sail so that the attached flow zones release their attachment almost simultaneously (top, mid cord & bottom) and from luff to leech AND the sailor can use or adjust (angle of attack) so that only a small zone of flow attachment 'can be' from midcord to leech, or in more severe control situation on / in the zone of the leech all due to changing of the angle of attack. Very fast, very accurate, and quite predictable.
Another way .... when blading out there is usually a top-to-bottom section of the sail 'working' although that attachment zone may be also moving aft as you 'feather up' and 'blade out'.
With an overtwisted sail usually only the small mid panel sections 'are working' or 'drawing', the head is flogging and the foot is grossly 'backwinding' .... when you attempt to feather up, that backwinded section now has to pass through a power-up.
If my jib is overly twisted-up and I slowly release a sheet, those sections that were over trimmed will now pass through full aerodynamic efficiency regime (power-up), all the while those sections that were already flogging will continue to flog due to unattached flow, the small section that previously had attached flow will now start to flog.
Since a jib, etc. is usually 'triangular' the effect of power-up will be more stronger when those lower sections (near or below the centroid of area), and that were not with original attached flow but solely 'backwinding', now 'power up' due to the greater effective surface area of the 'bottom' of the triangle now delivers available for full attached flow.
The power-up occurs from where the flow was attached ... all the way down to the foot of the sail in a sequential or moving zone; and, may take some time in doing so in according to the speed of the release of easing of the sheet - takes time for flow attachment to occur.
'Blading out' is usually done with little twist in the sail so that the attached flow zones release their attachment almost simultaneously (top, mid cord & bottom) and from luff to leech AND the sailor can use or adjust (angle of attack) so that only a small zone of flow attachment 'can be' from midcord to leech, or in more severe control situation on / in the zone of the leech all due to changing of the angle of attack. Very fast, very accurate, and quite predictable.
Another way .... when blading out there is usually a top-to-bottom section of the sail 'working' although that attachment zone may be also moving aft as you 'feather up' and 'blade out'.
With an overtwisted sail usually only the small mid panel sections 'are working' or 'drawing', the head is flogging and the foot is grossly 'backwinding' .... when you attempt to feather up, that backwinded section now has to pass through a power-up.
OK, got it, thanks Rich
and all this time I just let the sheet out quick and did not see any of this.
I'm thinking that smaller boats have more issues as they don't have that big lead pig on the end of the keel.
and all this time I just let the sheet out quick and did not see any of this.
I'm thinking that smaller boats have more issues as they don't have that big lead pig on the end of the keel.
Rich, this has been an awesome lesson and I really have learned a lot from it. I especially wanted to relay to you that I had a "ah ha" moment when you compared the sail shape to an airplane wing. Flaps down lots of lift for slow sailing and light wind and flaps up for high wind and speed. Nice analogy! I also learned a new saying “Nantucket Sleigh Ride”. Never heard that before and I totally understand its implications.
Still trying to get my arms around the "blading out" explanation though!
However back to your picture. It looks like these guys got caught in a "blow" and are seriously overpowered. With the heel that they have on do you you believe that the boat has enough rudder (and keel) in the water to actually effect the boat? BTW I have to admit these guys do look amazingly relaxed for the situation they are in.
Thanks again
Still trying to get my arms around the "blading out" explanation though!
However back to your picture. It looks like these guys got caught in a "blow" and are seriously overpowered. With the heel that they have on do you you believe that the boat has enough rudder (and keel) in the water to actually effect the boat? BTW I have to admit these guys do look amazingly relaxed for the situation they are in.
Thanks again
One additional comment (OK more than one). How do you propose that they go out on deck and move the fairlead in this situation? I would never send my Admiral out to do it (she would mutiny anyway) and I do not think that I could relinquish the helm in this situation.In summary of what I think, that jib fairlead car needs to go more forward ….
1. For more speed and less heel. ….. including ‘blading out’ the jib AND main to keep the boat ‘on her feet’ (more speed, until the boat, if it’s a keelboat, starts to ‘death wobble’ …. then definitely youre going to have to reef deeper, etc. ...... after the cockpit thoroughly drains out.)
2. To better be able to ‘blade out’ that jib if the wind gets even higher, just like you ‘blade out’ a mainsail by 'playing' its traveller!
Second if I understand your "blade out" explanation in this situation the only way that they could blade out the jib is just to release the sheet. Not much else that they could do.
OK just call me dense!
Here's what a partly bladed out sail would look like in comparison to the 'first' pic.
Notice that the only real change is that the FAIRLEAD car position is further forward in the lower pic portion. The upper left portion shows (in yellow) what is being 'backwinded' - yellow section approximately 90° to the apparent wind, the pink is luffing, only the 'white' has attached flow!!!!!!
Ask yourself the question: on which point of sail going 'upwind' or nearly 'upwind' would a backwinded or 'backed' sail be useful? .... answer: only to 'brake' or to stop a boat. That yellow section is being backwinded (aka - overtrimmed).
Nodak - if the clew goes forward, either the fairlead car goes forward .... or the Admiral goes forward; but, on the 'high side' and sets the 'lazy' fairlead so that when you tack the fairlead is nearly in the correct TRIM position.
If you dont like either of these above possibilities then either get a set of these: http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=37 ....
..... OR get a new jib/genoa specially cut so that the LP is exactly on the same line as the 'centroid of sail area' .... needs NO fairlead adjustment once the fairlead is initially and correctly set -- a 'yankee' jib with a HIGH clew.
Notice that the only real change is that the FAIRLEAD car position is further forward in the lower pic portion. The upper left portion shows (in yellow) what is being 'backwinded' - yellow section approximately 90° to the apparent wind, the pink is luffing, only the 'white' has attached flow!!!!!!
Ask yourself the question: on which point of sail going 'upwind' or nearly 'upwind' would a backwinded or 'backed' sail be useful? .... answer: only to 'brake' or to stop a boat. That yellow section is being backwinded (aka - overtrimmed).
Nodak - if the clew goes forward, either the fairlead car goes forward .... or the Admiral goes forward; but, on the 'high side' and sets the 'lazy' fairlead so that when you tack the fairlead is nearly in the correct TRIM position.
If you dont like either of these above possibilities then either get a set of these: http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=37 ....
..... OR get a new jib/genoa specially cut so that the LP is exactly on the same line as the 'centroid of sail area' .... needs NO fairlead adjustment once the fairlead is initially and correctly set -- a 'yankee' jib with a HIGH clew.
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