What's wrong with my thinking?

[dennisv]

This forum has been a big help to me with every question I've asked so far. Why not push the limit????? I have a 1984 O"Day fixed keel boat. I have a 1996 Furlex Type B II furling system. It's old, but still works fine. My furling has a lot of play in it (guessing 2-3 inches total sway when furled at dock). Want to be able to point higher during my ocassional races (sails are new 2019). My backstay has been adjusted to the point of 2X the official factory suggested rake. The Furlex system does not have a turnbuckle on the forestay for fine turning adjustment, but rather relies on a set, hard non-adjustable length. Backstay is only adjustment, and it is maxed out.

Now you know my set up. Here is the question. IF I take apart a 1996 furler, I'm sure to break something. Replacement parts are no longer available. Thinking out of the box.......can I go to the "other end" of the forestay (top) cut off the terminal eye fitting, shorten the forestay and re-swege a new terminal eye fitting on. I would then have a shorter forestay , pulling the mast forward with a "harder tensioned" forestay. Less furler sway. Higher pointing. Happier me. Am I a genius, or an idiot?

 

[rgranger]

Sounds like your stay is old and stretched… it is called a STAY. So if it were me I’d be worrying it it will stay put.

 

[PaulK]

Stays are not likely to have stretched enough to make such a difference on your boat. It sounds like you want to tighten up your forestay for better upwind performance. Raking the mast rakes the mast, but doesn't necessarily tighten the forestay. Tightening the backstay should tighten the forestay. You haven't said how tight the backstay is. Several things could be going on to make your forestay so loose. 1/ Tightening up the backstay could make the boat "banana". The downward force of the tightened stays on the mast could be pulling the ends of the boat up -- making the stays loose. 2/Tightening up the backstay could be driving the mast down: compressing the cabin top or pushing the compression post into the bilge - making the stays loose. It would be a good idea to check by watching carefully when you tighten up the backstay and seeing what happens with the hull, mast step and rig. Messing with your furler to get more rake is not the most likely solution.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

What @PaulK said. Another possibility - a rotten deck-stepped base or keel footing beneath the mast could let down, it reducing tension on the whole rig. Check for softness and compression where the mast is stepped. If the mast is deck stepped it will have a compression post in the cabin beneath… Check the base of the compression post In the bilge.

 

[Joe]

What does your backstay adjuster look like? If it's just an assortment of blocks and rope, well bingo! You can easily shorten the backstay and extend the adjuster. On my boat I have an old fashioned wheel adjuster that has a connection plate with a number of holes to allow for spacing, making for and easy change in fitment.. A simple block and tackle system, is much more commonly seen these days... again, easy to re set. If you have a fancy mechanical or hydraulic system, it's still all about readjusting the distance between the wire and the movable parts, but I gurantee there is accommodation for any distance that needs to be covered.

Anyway, tackling this problem from the backstay end is the simpler and cheaper approach.... but... you will want to keep an eye on how much the mast rake increases and if it is tolerable. Too much rake and you'll need to do something about the forestay length. So you might want of determine if you can move the furler down closer to the deck. Post a picture of both backstay adjuster and the forestay/drum deck connection.

Finally, you might pose your question to the experts that work with this stuff everyday. I suggest calling "Rig-Rite" or "Rigging Only" (find them online) or basically any rigging shop. Even here, at SBO, perhaps. Pose your dilemma to them, they will most likely know exactly what your options will be and be ready to sell you any additional hardware. I would also contact Furlex with your model no. and get their input, especially how hard it is to replace the forestay inside the drum and foil of your RF unit.

Okay, that's all I got. Good Luck

 

[shemandr]

I agree with the above. Rake is set by the length of the forestay, not by the tension on the backstay. Maybe you should put in an adjustable backstay. But be warned that you'll never get that forestay bar tight. And it's not supposed to be. If a sailmaker measured your boat they likely cut the jib to allow for some sag. Over tightening the forestay will defeat that. And as said above (Post #3), bend the boat. You can run a caulk line from pushpin to bow rail with minimal tension on the backstay. When you tension the backstay, when that line dips you are bending the boat. You may be surprised at how little tension that takes.
We all want to sail our boats closer to the wind. But unless your boat was specifically designed to do that there is only so much you can do. And anyway, pinching is slow.

 

[dlochner]

Tha amount of sway, actually it is usually referred to as sag, in your forestay is about right. The luff of the sail should match the sag in the sail.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. How old are your sails? What fabric are they? Old, soft, and stretched out sails are slow, don't point well, and induce lots of heel.

Rake and prebend are related, but different. Rake is the angle of the mast to the deck and is measured as the distance the aft end of the masthead is behind the mast at deck level. Prebend is the amount of curve induced in the mast. It is measured from an imaginary straight line from the mast head to base of the mast at the deepest part of the bend. The curve of the mainsail luff and the prebend should match.

Shortening the forestay can cause the mast to invert, i.e., instead of the masthead bending aft, it bends forward. The rig wasn't designed to remain standing in the configuration.

This winter spend some time with a good mast tuning book. Selden mast has a free one online. Ivar Dedekam's Sail Rig and Tuning is also a good choice (Amazon link).

 

[JBP-PA]

If your forestay is attached with link plates instead of a turnbuckle, you can get shorter link plates.

 

[jssailem]

The forestay still bugging you?

I think it was an issue in 2012. I thought it was addressed by the backstay adjuster. Sounds like the issue has creeped back onto the boat. It is a 1984 boat. Things sag and stretch and bulge On boats just like on their boat owners.

With the mast down over winter you could check the length of the forward stay. Selden provides a howto video on their furlex furler.

First step it covers is measuring the forestay. Wondering. Since this issue has been around for so long, could it have been measured wrong from the start?

Using the posted data from Sailboatdata, your forestay should be about the following.
Est. Forestay Len.: 37.97 ft / 11.57 m

If it is not close then, I’d start there with my considering how to solve the pestering sag.

Since you are thinking this boat could be a contender if only the little nagging things could be fixed, if you have not replaced the rigging that might be a consideration. Mast / standing rigging are well past 30 years if still original. While wire is strong, over time it does stretch. Then there are the usual suspects of chainplates, compression posts, mast steps, and as was alluded to with the banana analogy boat bend.

Keep it simple. It is a 30 plus boat. She has served you well for 10 plus years.

 

[dlochner]

The OP asks 3 questions:

1. Is my thinking correct?
2. Is my forestay too long?
3. Why can't I point as high as I want?

To answer the first: If you are focused on pointing and the length of the forestay, yes, your thinking is wrong.

To answer the second: If you have 2-3 inches of sag, probably not. Some racers with really bendy masts will start with as much as 4 to 6 inches of sag. The O'Day 28 does not have a bendy mast, it is more like a tree trunk.

To answer the third: I think this is your real concern. Sailing a boat to weather in an efficient manner involves a lot of factors:

1. Genoa fairlead position. The proper position will vary depending on point of sail, sea conditions, wind strength. The set it and forget approach will not yield optimum trim.
2. Mainsail trim and mainsail condition. Over trimming the main gives the illusion of speed, however, the boat is making lots of leeway and stalling. Old baggy mainsails induce heeling which causes leeway and they can not be trimmed efficiently.
3. Genoa condition. Old stretched genoas can not be trimmed efficiently nor properly. This makes it slow and unable to point.
4. Genoa cut. Different cuts, styles, and fabric have an effect on pointing ability. A Triradial laminate sail will be more efficient than a cross cut Dacron sail will last longer at greater expense.
5. Hull design. Some hulls are more efficient to weather than others. Hull shape, keel depth and shape, and rudder shape all affect pointing ability. O'Days were never noted for performance sailing.
6. Rig tuning. A boat with an improperly tuned rig will never sail as fast or as high as similar boat with a properly tuned rig. The hot racers retune their rigs for every race depending on the conditions and in between races during a regatta.
7. Boat balance. Boats sail faster and higher the flatter they are. Keep the boat on its feet. If the rail is in the water, the boat is going sideways fast. Boats of this vintage, 1980s, were typically to sail fastest at about 15-20° at the maximum.
8. Boat weight. A heavy boat is a slow boat. Get rid of extra weight.
9. There are no cheap solutions to going faster and higher.
10. Gentlemen don't sail to weather.

If the goal is to sail faster upwind consider new sails and adjustable (towable) Genoa cars.

I used to have a Furlex furler. A rigger I talked to, Rigging Only, said the furler can be removed from forestay with great difficulty. I fixed mine with a piece of plastic and an angle grinder with a cut off wheel.

 

[Crusty Ol Salt]

Now you know my set up. Here is the question. IF I take apart a 1996 furler, I'm sure to break something. Replacement parts are no longer available. Thinking out of the box.......can I go to the "other end" of the forestay (top) cut off the terminal eye fitting, shorten the forestay and re-swege a new terminal eye fitting on. I would then have a shorter forestay , pulling the mast forward with a "harder tensioned" forestay. Less furler sway. Higher pointing. Happier me. Am I a genius, or an idiot?

After rereading the original question and due to my lack of knowledge, I believe all the responses provided are correct.

Also, due to my lack of knowledge, the correct response for me is call your local rigger. I know money is tight everywhere these days, but having a professional put eyes on it could be priceless in the long run.

 

[Kings Gambit]

These types of questions about pointing and overall performance bring to mind one-design racing where nearly identically-rigged boats under strict class rules typically display a range of performances. Folks often look first to their equipment for an explanation of poor performance; whereas, the first thing probably should be their own skill and knowledge of sailing, etc. I’ve seen friends spend tens of thousands of dollars on sails and other gear for their race boats over the years with little or no gain in their average standings. Next, of course, is the “unfair” rating system of PHRF, or other, etc.

As pointed out above, for good performance one must look at the boat holistically. Every little tweak of something can add to, or subtract from, the boat’s performance every second it is underway. Some boats may make a weather mark sooner than another, identical, one b/c of superior coursemanship, such as playing the puffs or wind oscillations well. But yes, the boat should always be in best trim, well rigged with equipment in best condition, and skippered with lots of sailing under the belt. And BTW, if you do wish to explore equipment issues, yachts with headsail furling systems generally do not point has high as those without. I doubt your 1984 O’Day was designed with a headsail furling system in mind, although it might have been. (I note that your furler model is 12 years older than the boat.) Maybe take it down and use the boat with hanked-on sails for a while, and access the difference with just that.

 

[jon hansen]

all these tidbits of info are nice. wana learn how to drive your vessel to weather? buy frank bethwaite's book high performance sailing.
you must learn the wind and how it crosses the surface of the earth. boat prep is good, (it's in the book too) but until you learn how to play the wind you will always be average.

just saying

 

[dennisv]

WOW!!!! you guys did not disappoint. The feedback was awesome. Thanks Paulk, CApt Larry, Joe, Shemandr,
dlochner, JBP-PA, jssailem, King Gambit, Crusty Ol Salt, and jon hansen.

Couple of points .......
My sails - new in 2019 (3 seasons old). Dacron, std cut.
backstay tension and rake - per O'Day manual "main halyard should hang approx. (O'Day 28 7 inches) aft of the mast. Mine is almost 10 inches. I have more rake than is recommended. Also, did find a 3/4 inch shorter Double Jaw Toggle for the bottom of the forestay. Pulled mast forward and eliminated est. 2 inches of sag. Cheap improvement.
furler sag - the sag I have is pretty typical of all cruising boats in my marina (I've tested them all). Was just thinking "to race" it needed to be tighter. Per this tread, maybe not.
I'm thinking this years improvement is more "fine tuning" of the sails and serious attention to tuning the rigging + maybe the book "High Performance Sailing", maybe overkilling for a O'Day 28, but in the last 2 years I've learned that small adjustments can yield big improvements.

 

[jssailem]

+ maybe the book "High Performance Sailing"

Not over kill. It is an enhancement of your sailing knowledge. Use it to improve your performance on the ODay. Take the skills with you to every other boat you might get an opportunity to sail.

You want insight into trimming of sails, then you need to understand the physics of the sails and how they move the boat. For this I would suggest Arvel Gentry.

Gentry Sailing | Recalling the research, writing and design of Arvel Gentry

 

[dlochner]

I'm thinking this years improvement is more "fine tuning" of the sails and serious attention to tuning the rigging + maybe the book "High Performance Sailing", maybe overkilling for a O'Day 28, but in the last 2 years I've learned that small adjustments can yield big improvements.

This. This is the joy and fascination with sailing. It is a life long passion entailing lifelong learning. In a single day almost anyone can learn to make the boat go more or less in the direction they want it to go. The rest of your life is spent learning how to make the boat go faster, straighter, and more comfortably in a myriad of ever changing conditions. It is the joy of mastery.

You know this already, your O'Day 28 will rarely, if ever, compete boat for boat with a hot racing boat. That doesn't mean it can't be sailed better, we all can always sail better no matter the boat, no matter our experience.
Sail, enjoy, and take pleasure as you master new subtle skills that make your sailing ever more enjoyable.

 

[dennisv]

Thanks men

 

[Benny17441]

The load tension on the wire is dictated by its size and strands configuration. Consider the age and condition of the wire and see if you have room to safely add tension.