After many years of gentle coaxing I have FINALLY persuaded my wife to make the transition from power to sail with me. After asking around and talking to the many awesome and friendly people who sail at our yacht club we are convinced that the Catalina 27 is the boat for us. As we will be boating closer to the bottom of the food chain we will be looking for an older model but we need to know if there are certain years to avoid and others that are more desirable. All I know about them so far is that in the early years of production the deck fittings weren't always reinforced at their attachment points and that up until 1986 the keel bolts were secured into simple plywood in the bilge, which I'm told is one of the contributing factors to the "smile". Any advice at all is greatly appreciated. Can't wait to find one, it's so exiting that it's hard to sleep at nights.
What years are best
- Thread starter Chris Nowell
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Congratulations. Don't know if you're aware of the C27 Association website, www.catalina27.org. Lots of information there.
Happy Hunting.
Happy Hunting.
Chris- I have a 82' C27. It has the older metal framed windows. At some point they changed the windows to the unframed plastic ones. My keel bolts are stainless and I suppose there is ply filler in there but not sure. No smile on my keel and the bilge seems solid. The boat sails great especially with new sails. The side decks are on the narrow side and so I added roller furling for the genoa so I don't have to go forward much. My boat is tiller and the main is end boom sheeting. The newer ones have mid boom, not sure what year they did that. I sail single-hand alot and find that the location of end boom sheeting, tiller, and genny sheets are within easy reach. I removed the gas engine and installed electric. The engine compartment is very restrictive and made simple maintenance a pain on the A4. Unfortunately or fortunately (depends on how you look at it) I got 3ft itis and bought a C30 so my C27 is for sale. They are nice boats. It mostly comes down to how much someone has maintained and invested in their boat that determines it's value and not so much age. I looked at a 83' C30 that was a whole lot nicer than a 1990 C30 that was not cared for.
Doug
Doug
Catalina didn't make a bad year in the 27. There are various trade-offs that have been made over time, but these vary within years of production even. So, don't worry about the year. I prefer earlier boats because they tend to be overengineered. In early production (with most makes), fiberglass was not as trusted, so manufacturers tended to err more on the side of adding too much. This makes for a heavier boat, but one which will theoretically wear better.
I have a 1972, and as you mentioned, none of the deck hardware has backer plates or any other sort of reinforcement. It really disturbed me at first until I noticed that in 40 years there hadn't been a problem - not even any spider cracks to speak of. Then, the first time I had to drill a hole in the deck I realized why this was so. The deck is damn thick!
As Doug points out, it's all about the boat's history. My 1972 had been neglected for several years, but was built well enough to tolerate a certain amount of that. After a thorough cleaning and some new running rigging, she was ready to go. She's a very solid boat now.
My advice is to ignore the year and look at the boat. If cared for reasonably well, the first boat produced should be every bit as sound as the very last one they produced. If neglected, they're both best avoided. Look for a good deal in whatever year. But, make sure you get a haulout done so you can look at the keel. Provided there hasn't been trauma and there are no soft spots, the hull and deck are the last things you need to worry about, but you do want to get a look below the water line.
Things that you do need to worry about is pretty much everything else. Any bargain boat is going to need hardware rebedding, a good cleaning, and probably new sails and/or other running rigging. But, when you start to get into replacing standing rigging or making deck or hull repairs, it starts to drift away from the "bargain" category.
Also, pay close attention to the engine. This is what bit me when I bought a bargain boat. I paid $3500 for the boat, and felt like I knew exactly what was wrong with it and what it would take to get it up to the condition I wanted. I was almost dead-on with my assessment except that I overestimated the condition of the motor and underestimated the repair-vs-replace calculation. I ended up dropping over $4000 on a new motor (with bells and whistles), and after a few thousand dollars in other repairs/improvements (which I HAD budgeted for), I couldn't sell the boat for what I've put into it. If I had been smarter about the motor, I actually could sell the boat for a small profit otherwise.
Though ... you should really never do the math.
I have a 1972, and as you mentioned, none of the deck hardware has backer plates or any other sort of reinforcement. It really disturbed me at first until I noticed that in 40 years there hadn't been a problem - not even any spider cracks to speak of. Then, the first time I had to drill a hole in the deck I realized why this was so. The deck is damn thick!
As Doug points out, it's all about the boat's history. My 1972 had been neglected for several years, but was built well enough to tolerate a certain amount of that. After a thorough cleaning and some new running rigging, she was ready to go. She's a very solid boat now.
My advice is to ignore the year and look at the boat. If cared for reasonably well, the first boat produced should be every bit as sound as the very last one they produced. If neglected, they're both best avoided. Look for a good deal in whatever year. But, make sure you get a haulout done so you can look at the keel. Provided there hasn't been trauma and there are no soft spots, the hull and deck are the last things you need to worry about, but you do want to get a look below the water line.
Things that you do need to worry about is pretty much everything else. Any bargain boat is going to need hardware rebedding, a good cleaning, and probably new sails and/or other running rigging. But, when you start to get into replacing standing rigging or making deck or hull repairs, it starts to drift away from the "bargain" category.
Also, pay close attention to the engine. This is what bit me when I bought a bargain boat. I paid $3500 for the boat, and felt like I knew exactly what was wrong with it and what it would take to get it up to the condition I wanted. I was almost dead-on with my assessment except that I overestimated the condition of the motor and underestimated the repair-vs-replace calculation. I ended up dropping over $4000 on a new motor (with bells and whistles), and after a few thousand dollars in other repairs/improvements (which I HAD budgeted for), I couldn't sell the boat for what I've put into it. If I had been smarter about the motor, I actually could sell the boat for a small profit otherwise.
Though ... you should really never do the math.
Diesel over gasoline is a good choice. If that means a C30 instead and you can pull it off financially, go for it. Lots of people in the past would upgrade from the 27 to the 30. Save the extra step.
Many thanx for all the input folks, this info is SO important to us newbies. Yeh, it's lookin' like the C 30 would definitely be our dream boat but we ARE limited to 30' LOA. The move/wait list at our club is so long that we'd have to live 'till we're well over 100 to qualify. The C 27 , from what we can see, is easily single handed, inexpensive, reasonably well constructed, reasonably well mannered, and will make it possible for us to have it trailered back home to Vancouver when we retire so we can cruise the Gulf Islands and Inside Passage. I've read about properly prepared and manned C 27's making offshore passages too. If these vessels are capable of feats like that then they will be just fine for cruising around the Pacific Northwest on a retirement schedule that enables one to avoid the hurricanes and storms to a great extent. And besides, they're damn fine lookin' vessels. Thanx again and please keep the info coming. Cheers
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I've got an '84 and love it. Diesel is fantastic, once you go there, you'll toss your outboard into the workshop for good. Another plus on the 27 is that you actually can still trailer it if need be, a lot more difficult with a C30, although my wife keeps eyeballing them.
What is your budget? How much will you have left over for upgrades, retrofits and deferred maintenance?
Joe, our budget is pretty much up to $12K for initial purchase, I'm figuring half that again for upgrades, and our yearly maintenance budget will be set at roughly $2K. We've been into power boating all our lives so I've developed a workable grasp of maintenance and repair. I'm in my glory when I'm working with fiberglass, just love it for some reason, and I'm capable of maintaining and rebuilding drive systems, house systems etc as well. Thanx 4 yer input.
if your'e looking at 30's go after '91 because the open stern makes a much easier boat to live with. of course they cost more, but they'll always be worth much more. just in terms of being self-bailing and very easy to haul in overboards, worth every penny. in my opinion, the single best advance ever done to the 30.
I paid 10.5K for mine, in great shape, with 10 months slip paid for. I've seen a couple '86s running around $12K. Roller furling is a must on a 27.
When you get on the water, let me know. It sounds like you're in my neighborhood (moored in Blaine).
Shipwreck66, Re roller furling - I've been advised to "keep it simple" if one intends to cruise isolated places. The thoughts are that if your roller furling misbehaves when you are in the middle of nowhere you're in big trouble. With a selection of hank on jibs and a close eye on the barometer I may have one less thing that can go wrong. I'm brand new to sailing so any info is very much appreciated. I'm also "old school" too, I still plot my courses, DR positions, and fixes even though we are fully equipped with chart plotter etc. Thanx for taking the time to reply, I'm impressed by the support and help sailors are willing to extend.
Faris, San Juans and the Gulf Islands are my fave spot on the planet, grew up there. I could roam those waters for decades and never get bored. We're presently in the Okanagan though, (south central interior of BC). Seven more years of fresh water boating 'till retirement and then we'll be hauling whatever we end up buying to the coast. We get to White Rock quite often and our friends there shop in Blaine regularly. I'd love to look you and your boat up when we're down that way. Thanx.
Hi Chris - Roller furlings or hank-ons is a matter of preference. I have seen owners with roller furlings cuss and swear on a rare occasion things go wrong, but that isn't very often. I have hanks on my foresails, and there were many times I wished I had a roller furling. Going forward to gather the sail in high seas is exhilarating but not for everyone. And then there is anchoring. Need I go on?
My reason for hanks is that it came with the boat - I'm just too cheap to pop for one and new and/or modified sails. (I've spent money elsewhere on the boat). I'd rather have hanks than a cheap roller furling, but I'd rather have a well made roller furling over hanks.
- Jon
Jon, good points. We had our C25 for 12 years from 87 to 98 and had hank on 85% and 110%s. We used the same jib downhaul method we had on our C22. And we'd sail on port tack, heave to and easily douse the jib on the foredeck. That way the hanks lie properly and you can easily bag the sail.
Hi Chris,
I bought an '86 Cat 27 four years ago and paid a lot more than 12K, but it had a lot of extras I wanted--good roller furling, which I wouldn't be without because I single-hand 99% of the time; a diesel with low hours; a new bimini and wheel steering plus upgraded deck fittings and other galley and head upgrades plus new sails and an awl-gripped hull. I mostly love the boat and it's as large as I'd want given my age--71-- and strength (I've been on larger boats and I'm not strong enough to winch in the Genoa!). I love the hot-water heater on shore power and pressure water plus the heat-exchanger so you have hot water for a day after you've been motoring. The diesel has been great and just sips fuel. Only complaint is a wonky fuel gauge that always reads half-full (or half-empty).
Alan
I have sailed & owned several Catalinas, the C22, C25, & now a C 30. I believe the designs of Catalinas are pretty consistent. The hulls are strong, decks are thickly cored (except the C 22). The deck hardware can be rather undersized when it comes to the travellers. The chainplates & hardware will consistently leak until they are properly rebedded with something durable & flexible such as butyl tape. Beware of Catalina lexan type ports made after the late 1980's they notoriously crack & split. The older glass type with aluminum frames may leak, but the ports themselves are incredibly durable.
I would avoid any regular gas engines, & pay extra for a diesel auxillary. Their reliablity & fuel economy are bar none. Plywood was used in the bilge in Catalinas long after 1986. It is a myth that they ever stopped using it in the
C 27 & C 30. Many owners of 1990's era Mark II models have reported Catalina smile problems. But as a whole their advantages in ease of handling, great overall design features in their cockpit and volumous cabins make them hard to beat. The main years to avoid are 1979 & earlier before Catalina started using higher grade stainless steel keel boats & upgraded chain plates.
Late 80's models have improved rudder design & better ergonomics. I don't think that the 90's models are worth the premium that they command just to get a walk through transom. How many of us really go swimming off the stern anyway? I go out on my boat to SAIL. When I want to swim we use the pool at the marina & avoid the jelly fish stings.
Good luck & tell us what you pick as the winner. The hunt for the new boat is one of my favorite passions. Don't settle on the first boat you see, and never pay full asking price! Cheers.
I would avoid any regular gas engines, & pay extra for a diesel auxillary. Their reliablity & fuel economy are bar none. Plywood was used in the bilge in Catalinas long after 1986. It is a myth that they ever stopped using it in the
C 27 & C 30. Many owners of 1990's era Mark II models have reported Catalina smile problems. But as a whole their advantages in ease of handling, great overall design features in their cockpit and volumous cabins make them hard to beat. The main years to avoid are 1979 & earlier before Catalina started using higher grade stainless steel keel boats & upgraded chain plates.
Late 80's models have improved rudder design & better ergonomics. I don't think that the 90's models are worth the premium that they command just to get a walk through transom. How many of us really go swimming off the stern anyway? I go out on my boat to SAIL. When I want to swim we use the pool at the marina & avoid the jelly fish stings.
Good luck & tell us what you pick as the winner. The hunt for the new boat is one of my favorite passions. Don't settle on the first boat you see, and never pay full asking price! Cheers.
I have a 71' Hull #15 Good solid boat. For me the only thing I would look for is to make sure you have stainless steel keel bolts. My 71 doesn't But having said that, i have no cracks or smiles
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