What would you do?

[Bill Roosa]

Raising the main

In my previous post (#80) the issue of raising the main was never a question. Nobody ever dropped there sails unless they had their storm sails up. Of course raising a tri-sail can be done on any point of sail given its size and that will give you the steerage to control the boat to do whatever you need to sail wise.

 

[Franklin]

two points and a restatement of the question

1) If your in protected waters, the waves shouldn't be a problem.2) "Also recovery is VERY hard and dangerous."I've read that a lot from those who say not to use them, but your suppose to wait until the storm passes before retrieving it. If you can't wait and have to leave during the storm, just cut it loose. As for them not working as advertised, I don't know about that. Logically it seems like it would work.Question:I know the freeboard is the problem in such high winds. At some point, after reducing sail and effectiveness of the sail, the force of the wind on the freeboard is going to be more then the drive of the sails because you can't reduce freeboard much. So, if you have the wind pushing you back, at what wind speed is it too great for the sails to drive you forward?Note: Running bare poles is an option but not always.

 

[Seattle Scott]

Hey all you Bay and Sound sailers

You have storm sails and a sea anchor? My boat doesn't. Even if it did, they would be sitting at the house, until I planned to do a 20 mile crossing. I don't think it is reasonable to include these tools in the scenario. Same goes for harnesses since I don't sail at night, so my crew would not be able to "clip in" as others have sugested. I have one harness for when I solo. When the subject scenario happened to my no-sailing wife and I ( long time infrequent sailer)on about day three of our first keelboat ( sudden 30knt gusts) we kept putting the rail under and rounding up and the rigging was groaning and things crashing down below. I froze up and didn't have an answer to wife's question "What do we do now". So she told me to take the sails down, which I did since we had no engine problems. Then we start a five mile crossing back to the marina, rolling big time. We collect our wits and clean up the cabin and take stock as to what went wrong and why. Since we had sea room we should have just fallen off and eased the sails. So we divide up the crew tasks should we get in a squall (rare here) again. Get some jib back out to steady the boat and discuss docking stategy or waiting to the wind to die down first. It sure helps to have one experienced crew aboard when you get brain freeze, so I don't fault the captain in the example for dumping the sails. But good advice given for getting a weather and sea state report from the CG and getting some sail up and how to do it.

 

[Anchor Down]

"It's Dead, Jim."

Scott remembers what it's like to be overpowered your first time and not really know how to handle it.Gary's rhetorical "you" as the skipper shouldn't be taken literally. The hypothecital skipper's actions do suggest he's a novice, or at least a calm-weather weekend sailor, so some assumptions about the equipment he has on board and his basic skills are reasonable. Just because you know better doesn't mean he does.The use of sea anchors, warps, drouges, etc., are probably beyond his ken and that kit is probably not in his lockers anyway. Comments about clipping in are correct and we all approve, but I doubt he has that equipment either.We've solved this one: get some sail up & attempt decent progress toward home; notifiy the CG; tend to your crew.Thanks Gary, this was a lot of fun for all of us, but I'll run the risk of speaking for everyone and declare that it looks as if we've finally beaten it to death. We're looking forward to the next "What Would You Do?": there's nothing better than a good brawl on deck.

 

[jim kolstoe]

priorities matter

Anchor Down's posting re Ctskip chided Ctskip for not tending to the emotional needs of the "puker" and the "sobber." But there is only so much a person can do at one time. The skipper's first priority must be to keep the boat floating and regain control of it. Any other priority risks sinking. Once the boat is under control - I favor under sail rather than at anchor, it will be appropriate to tend to his passeger's needs. Several posts have good suggestions, particularly giving them something constructive to do that will restore their confidence in surviving. Regarding the argument whether to raise the main or jib first, I would raise the jib for the reason that my experience is that my main will not hoist under load, and it may be impossible to raise under the scenario. With the jib up I can get enough headway to shoot upwind for the few seconds necessary to hoist the main. Happy sailing.Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo

 

[Anchor Down]

Jim

This thread occupies several pages, which need to be read to get the complete thrust of what multiple-posters are trying to say. Please review more of the thread, and I'm sure I will seem much more brilliant than I do on just this page.In short: yes, getting the boat safely underway is the priority; tending to your crew is fairly easily accomplished as well, and will change the tone of the situation markedly. I also believe it's the skipper's responsibility to tend to that dimension as he is able.By the way, I posted first, then skip rejected my concern for the crew in favor of only looking after the yacht. But that can be realized in the broader context as well.Fair Winds,Jeff

 

[Ctskip]

Anchor Down

I didn't take any offense to your reply to my post # 59. The skipper has an obligation to fulfill and his first priority should be the welfare of his ship. Getting it under control and out of harms way is first and foremost. His crews safety is secondary. Their comfort is pretty far down on the list, at the time of the motor quiting. I did mention to have the sobber tend to the puker. After all I didn't get their names and was only identifying them. Sorry if you took it as Macho. Maybe I should mention, that upon docking,the skipper should be passing out tickets for free passage for any future trips. The macho thing wasn't necessary though. Why muddy up a scenario with trivial crap. We all know the scenario. I just want to clear the decks and get to the business of saving the craft and thusly saving lives. Why would anyone call the CG? There was no mention of lives at risk. Or possible sinking? Just to keep them informed? Thats a waste of their time and the skippers.Talk about getting the sobber to sob,if anything, that call will get them real paranoid and scared to death. That'll do it! Get the ship under control and making headway away from shore is first and most important. Crew safety is second. Fresh ice for the skippers double shot of whiskey is third! Excuse me ...did I mention life jackets for all? I guess I assumed this to be a natural move, so I didn't mention it. I also never mentioned rejecting anyones concern for the crew.That goes along with the ships safety. It just happens in this particular scenario to be down low on the list of priorities. Seeing is how the ship was dead in the water,the crews "comfort" is of no concern at the moment. After all we are all adults,no? Just the way I'd do it on my ship. Keep it up, Ctskip

 

[Franklin]

Screw the couple

Throw them overboard to lighten the load

 

[Anchor Down]

skip

In the interest of fairness, I went back and re-read your earlier posts. I think I described the tone accurately.Still, we're really not that far apart.Respctfully,Jeff

 

[Roger F]

wave angle

We are just 2 years into sailing and have hit some rough waves for our tender H240 and crew only a couple times. Curiousity, when facing waves under sail you are approaching at angle around close hauled to close reach. If motor is working, I assume you are best off to keep the same angle of approach?By the way, good discussions for someone like me to read. I have had a couple of scotch-craving situations so far and have found that each time I had read or had some time to think ahead on it I was much better off. Thanks!

 

[Ross]

Quartering the waves makes them

effectively longer and therefore not quite so steep. But you will roll more than when you take them head on.

 

[Len]

Funny you ask... just did that (S25)!

On an 11 mile long lake (infamous for sudden afternoon blows, I've sinced learned...) 2 weeks ago. Except had our two daughters (age 9 + 14) on board instead of the couple... oh, and the good fortune to fully reef my main BEFORE things got breezy (ok, maybe not that similar!).Anyway, yes 45 degrees to the waves worked best (softest ride yet best ability to spill wind / maintain control). Both my wife and I were pretty happy with the boat's (Seidelmann 25), and our own, ability to deal (especially when a 30' motor launch peeked its head out then quickly turned around). ; )We went at it for about 2 hours but eventually had to seek shelter back at the Marina when my youngest began to hurl (not how ANY of us wanted her to spend the day). This is actually when it got nerve wracking... running with that much wind at one's back (even on just a fully reefed main) was WILD / scary-fast, although softest. If nothing else, we're all much more confident of what this boat (if not it's passengers...) can handle.Now I'm curious to hear what it is like to reef the main IN those conditions with only one other hand on deck (at least we've the necessary strapping readily available)! In hindsight now, I'm thinking that should always be the first thing I do (i.e. before / just in case Murphy strikes and the motor goes too)?

 

[matt]

keep sailing

There is nothing i love more than sailing with my hair on fire, in this situation i would simple reef my main and tack back up wind the 7 miles to port

 

[Bob]

Head for safe anchorage

Let's see, Hunter 27, 7 HP Diesel, 30 kts headwind, only a 5 foot chop in Buzzards Bay, 2 good non-sailing friends on board with myself and 1 crew.Analysis: H27's do not motor well into headwind of 22 kts or higher. 22 kts is ZERO speed over the water an over 22 kts becomes NEGATIVE speed. (1st hand experience) Therefore when the engine dies, the main is already up and with a double reef. If the double reef is not in, then pull out jib enough to heave-to, and then put in the full reef. Depending on comfort factor, adjust roller furling as needed.Storm sails, sea anchors etc all sounds good, but only if they are on board.As crass as this may sound, my first priority is to ensure safety of the ship and all within it. My 'crew' should already be tending to the needs of the sobber and puker (assuming she is not one of them <smile>).Bob

 

[Tom H]

Sail the boat

Your first priority is to get away from that shoreline to the lee. On my older 27 the jib had a reef point and rookie crew or not hand signals to a sobbing helsman will allow you to reduce the main. With reduced sail and the sheets eased head away from the real problem, give everyone a PFD first and a task second, now is the time make a decision on how your going to make port or wait out the weather. Calling the CG is not out of the question, give them your position and crew status and in the least they will keep in communication until your condition changes. Take time to look at the diesel, with the boat stabiized on the present tack bypassing the filter may allow you to run the motor at reduced r.p.m. and drop the jib completly. Usually an hour will bring a reduction in foul weather and we all have put up with discomfort for periods of time. That old "clorox bottle" is still a good boat and you may be wet but sea room and time will get you back safe if not late.

 

[OldeCGChief]

Make Your Scared Passengers Comfortable:

First off, with guests that are not familiar on the water, and are Scared and/or Sea Sick I would have everyone put on there PFD's if they do not have one on, as a precaution. Then I would get the boat under control and underway with shortened (minimum) sail, on a heading that would take the boat away from the lee shore, and that would make for a more comfortable ride, to some sheltered water to check the engine. You may or may not be able to get to your engine safely if the seas are particularly rough, and it woul not help if you lose parts over the side or into the bilge.Also if the weather is particularly bad you can call your local Coast Guard Station and alert them to your problems. With the Lee shore, they MAY elect to send a boat to escort you to safety or to take you under tow to the nearest Safe Anchorage, so you can fix your engine in safety (so you can return home under your own power safely) or wait for a commercial tow, or maintain a line of communications until you are safe or conditions become worse. This is by far preferable to calling at the last minute looking for help to get you off the Lee Shore, just before you go on the rocks.You always have to remember, when you are in trouble on the water, it takes time for help find you and to reach you, because you may read your GPS Lat.-Lon. incorrectly (though this is the best way to give your location) or you may reference the wrong land mark from your chart. Here in Puget Sound (in a 50 mile radius of Seattle) there are many land mark, reference points that have the same name or sound the same so this leads to confusion. So please be careful when calling for help. When giving a land mark as a reference, you can also give the name of the island it is attached too, or a secondary landmark or the nearest town or processing plant, to expedite aid coming to you.

 

[Jim Kolstoe]

Reefing late

Len, you asked what is it like to reef "in those conditions.?" The short answer is not easy and not fun. Unless everything is set up to be accomplished from the cockpit, you will be at the mast, more exposed to wind, waves/spray and the possibility of swimming. Communiciations between you and the helm will be far more difficult. Its a good reason to practice, practice, practice, Its a good idea to trade off who's on the helm and who's doing the reefing. If nothing else, it provides insight to the problems each person will encounter.  Note to Jeff/Anchors Down, I did read the entire thread first. I do agree with much of what you said. I merely felt it needed to be emphasized that ensuring the safety of the boat, and by extension, of the crew, must be the highest priority. The scenario had the boat out of control and broad to the wind and waves. The desire to act compassionatly towards your passengers could lead to ignoring basic safety issues unless you keep priorities firmly in mind. Thanks for your contributions to this thread.Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo

 

[Lloyd Nilsen]

Lost power

Only thing to do is get the main up reefed.If the jib is furling I would add the jib but only partially.

 

[michael]

know your Wx signs

pfds for everyone prior to the blow with the indications as such. motor and reef early, kill the motor and enjoy the ride back to port while the inexperiance play cards buttoned up below.the key i would think is to know your weather signs and get folks in pfds early as well as reef early.

 

[Mark Wieber]

jviss

Some good stuff on reefing, and getting the main back up and reefed. I agree that sailing the boat is the first best priority. Since I am a proffessional mechanic I suspect I would not give up on the motor as fast as some Assuming fuel supply problems (per my previous post) ... My C36 requires one wrench, and a rag, for the primary (canister type) fuel filter. These tools are on a string fastened next to the filter. The engine also has a spin on fuel filter. The canister filter has a bleeder and will prime with the electric pump. By putting some fuel in the spin-on filter, I have never had to re-bleed the injectors. The filter wrench for the spin on filter is top drawer of the navigation station. The spare filters are in the first starboard cabinet. In five foot sea's, with a "sobber and a puker" down below it would be a real pain and would be way down my priority list, but I would get it done if I determined it would keep my boat off the "rocky lee shore"