What would you do?

Status
Not open for further replies.

rsn48

.
Jun 7, 2005
257
- - Sewell Marina - West Vancouver
What Lin and Larry Pardey

I would ask myself what Lin and Larry Pardey would do in their first boat, the 24 foot Seraffyn in a 30 knot wind. The answer is reef the main and go to a storm jib and keep sailing. If this was a passing gale, I would not be inclined to go to the marina in such conditions but wait out the storm. Even if I had turned the motor on - the Pardey's Sarefynn did not have a motor and they sailed 10's of thousands of miles in it - I would have left the jib up to steady the boat and reduce some of the motion. A motoring sailboat is a bouncier sailboat than one with sails. Now to the couple, I would tell them there is nothing I can do to make them feel less scared, but as time progresses maybe they will have more confidence in the boat. I would explain to them that a boat at sea is safer than a boat approaching land in a bad blow up and it would actually be safer to wait out the storm. I would explain that motorcycle racers fall all the time doing ninety miles an hour on a race track, but they slide and only hit straw bales or nothing. That same motorcycle rider falling off a bike doing 90 would die on the highway, not because he fell or slid, but because of what he hit. Sailboats are the same way, as long as there is nothing to hit, it's a lot safer than getting closer to land and hitting something. If the wind really picked up and became serious, I again would do what Lin and Larry would do and that is set out the para-anchor and wait out the storm. To me the visiting couple is a side item, the safety of the boat and crew as a whole is most important. If I set up the para-anchor, I would broadcast a "securite" to let others know of my location and estimated drift. As a side note: most production boat main sails don't reef as deeply as those in the know with heavy weather experience. These people have extra reefing points added to the main to allow a deeper reef. You either want a deeper reef or use a tri-sail.
 
Jul 20, 2005
2,422
Whitby 55 Kemah, Tx
Sailing in 30+ knots

Twice. Once when I was in the Gulf heading to Port Author in the middle of the night and I had 6-8 waves and it was pitch dark. I just reefed both the jib and main and kept sailing until I got sick and then turned around. It was a very ugly night. When I tured around, the outhaul broke and the autopilot wouldn't work and also wouldn't dis-engage. So I sailed home with just the jib and a very hard steering. Once when I was coming back from a weekend anchor trip...this is why it was so hairy 1) hit just as I entered the Houston shiping channel and had 3 hugh tankers verging on each other at my location. 2) wind was on my beam 3) at that point in the channel, there isn't any way out of it for a mile 4) can't change direction...shipping channel only like 150 yards wide. 5) I WAS ALONE and autopilot couldn't handle the conditions. 6) I was trying to beat the storm coming home because I could see the lighting hitting houses and stuff on shore. So, I saw it coming, rolled up the main and started the engine. I didn't want to be overpowered in the channel and wanted to be able to roll the jib at a seconds notice. I kept the engine at idle so it wouldn't suck much fuel but would be ready if I needed it (damn if I was going to be hit by 500 tons of metal). Once I realize that I was being overpowered with just the jib up and that the 3 tankers were going to cross each other at my location in the channel, I put the engine in gear and locked the wheel and then rolled the jib. I motored the channel for the mile and then got out of the channel and headed for Kemah. I realized I wasn't going to beat the storm and the lighting was scary so I turned around and motored into the wind and 5' waves to get out of the way of the storm. I know...not a good idea but I already had the sails down and was alone so I figured I'd just leave them down. I was only able to do 2 knots at almost full throttle against the wind. Luckly my engine didn't die. After the storm passed, I turned quickly to get in because another storm was on it's heals. After turning I put up the jib and turned off the motor and ran with the wind for the last 4 miles to the Clear Lake Channel. Just after I tied off at the dock the second storm hit. Being alone really makes things difficult with a weak autopilot. This spring I'm putting in a strong below deck autopilot. In the meantime I stay away from high winds :)
 

tweitz

.
Oct 30, 2005
290
Beneteau 323 East Hampton, New York
Local conditions

The best proof of how the differences in what we get used to sailing affect our assumptions is Franklin's answer. In your local conditions, sailing to the windward side might reduce the waves. The windward shore here in the end of Long Island is sometimes 3000 miles away, so we have to find an alternative.
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
More VHF

Of course a second VHF, tools, and spares are part of the kit. I just don't see any need to call for help in this situation. There is a big difference in communicating to advise others and having "call for help" on the VHF as a primary response. I see an increasing number of people that put call for help at or near the top of their list for emergencies. This situation is far from being an emergency. In a 30 knot breeze a boat beam on to the wind might drift at 1.5 knot or so. There are 2 hours before it is on the lee shore. The chances of a sudden 30 knot wind continuing at 30+ for 2 hours are small. Remember that the forecast was not for high winds. I have to assume that the 30 knots came from a thunderstorm or a local squall. Thunderstorms rarely last more than 45 minutes. This is not the end of the world. Calling on VHF is going to get you to answer a few questions. Is the boat in *immediate* danger of being lost? The answer is NO. Does anyone on-board require *immediate* medical attention? Again the answer is NO. The next question will be, "Would you like us to contact a commercial tow/salvage service?" Since you have no immediate danger to boat or crew, conditions that are very likely to get better and at least 2 hours before the danger becomes immediate, what point is there in calling for help on the VHF? You are going to have to take care of yourself anyway, why not just get on with it? If the boat is in or near a shipping lane, I can see calling the CG to inform them that you are or may become a hazard to navigation. You might even advise them that you are attempting repairs and will check in every 30 minutes to advise if you require assistance. I've sailed many times in breeze gusting over 30 and several times in sustained 30+ gusting over 45. The old C30 with a 100% jib and deep reef in the main was not bothered in the least. As far as sailing into the marina, most marinas have a guest dock or fuel dock that has easy access. If you learned to sail in boats that have no engine, you don't rely on the engine very often. One of the most difficult things I had to do to qualify as a sailing instructor was to dock under power. I always plan docking that could be done under sail, when asked to motor up a fairway then back into the slip I had a hard time ... I would never plan to do that, since I couldn't do it under sail. The main point here is that we are discussing responses to a situation that should never have developed. Since it did (for whatever reason), the proper response is still the first one: "be a sailor"
 
Jul 20, 2005
2,422
Whitby 55 Kemah, Tx
Ted, these aren't generic responses

But responses to this senario. He was 7 miles from the windward shore. There is no generic response to heavy weather sailing. Forgive me if I made it seem that way.
 
M

mortyd

what would

maybe you don't see a need for a vhf call, but i consider the safety and comfort of all aboard to be my first concern, and have no idea how a vhf call could do anything but further that puropse. letting others know your situation, regardless of the final outcome, will always be a priority on my boat. just maybe if an old master tar like you were listening he could calm me down and dispense pearls of wisdom like we have done here. no?
 

tweitz

.
Oct 30, 2005
290
Beneteau 323 East Hampton, New York
Windward shore

Franklin -- You are correct. I missed that. Of course I am in my house at the moment. I would be perfectly calm and miss no detail if in that captain's situation. LOL.
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
True enough :)

A Pan Pan might get you some information to help you help yourself. I did not consider that. There might even be a safe harbour downwind from your position that you didn't know about, giving you another option. I guess I see and hear too much helpless whinging that I've gotten jaded. :( The typical case is a friend of mine. The fan belt broke and his first clue was when the engine died. He had no tools and no spares aboard his (power)boat. No VHF, so he uses his cell to call for help ... just like he would call AAA ... Is it not odd that the people that have good plans and carry back-up equipment hardly ever need them?
 
B

Bob

Depends...

If the one sobbing is stacked and wearing a bikini, first priority is to make sure she is adequately comforted. Then make certain the sick one has a bucket. Seriously, the skipper of course has his Plan B in mind and ready to implement. In this case, with an engine stoppage, that plan is to get some sail up and steerageway on the boat. Somewhere in that process he gives everyone a job, even if it is minor or unimportant. That will focus them somewhere else than on what they see as their horrible predicament. The more the skipper acts as though what they need to do is routine, the more the others will realize they aren't really going to die and will help him deal with what is happening. Since he explained to them before they left the dock that heeling and shipping some water is normal, and that the boat is built to take very extreme conditions, his refusal to panic will go a long way towards helping them be contributing crew members. A calm and measured tone lets them know he isn't worried and has confidence in his and the boat's abilities to weather this storm. In fact, solving problems and accepting challenges is one reason he loves sailing.
 
Jun 2, 2004
40
Hunter 430 Schooner Cove, B.C.
Miserable Experience

There you go again Gary, stirring the pot and making us think. Aren't you the guy who crafted all those great quizes a few years back? Picking up from the situation this skipper finds himself in rather than what I would do differently, if there was some place safe and practical to run to, I would unfurl the jib and head downwind, which should make life much more comfortable for the guests. If there was no place to run to, I would put a double reef into the main and pinch my way upwind. The challenge will not be the boat but the guests. The boat will likely be heeled 20 degrees or more, and now the apparent wind will be 35 knots and you may still be pounding! A trying experience for even experienced sailers in a larger boat. The best you can do is make sure everyone is warm (with a PFD), turn the music up (CCR?),put the greenest guest on the wheel, offer tea and buscuits and start a debate about whether Mr. Bush should get out of Iraq! Once you get to the vicinity of your marina, make sure you are well off any lea shore, heave to, call the Coast Guard and tell them you're situation, relax, if thats possible, and when the wind quietens down, call for a tow. Had a similar experience a year ago. We were planning a morning sail across Georgia Strait from Vancouver to Naniamo (30+ miles)with three inexperienced guests. Morning came and the weatherman was calling for 20 knot winds, rain and cool temperatures. We called our guests and suggested that this would not be a good time for them to go sailing and promised we would find another time. They were not to be put off (they were all women) and against my better judgement I said ok. The weatherman was right. We had 25 knots of apparent wind out of the SE just forward of the beam and 4-5 waves, driving rain, less than 1 mile of visibility and cold! The good part of this saga is that the boat performed flawlessly. Double reefed mail, full jib, auto on the wheel, our speed through the water never dropped below 8 knots. Fastest crossing of the Strait we have ever made. However, our three intripid crew members did not fare so well as we corkscrewed through the waves at 15-20 degrees heel. They were each very green and very sick, but true troupers. We drank alot of tea, ginger ale and a box of saltine crackers and sorted out alot of difficult political problems. When we got into harbour at Naniamo, we dropped anchor and headed over to the Dinghy Dock Pub. Soon the worst of the trip was forgotten. Notice the crackers in hand! Peter Milne S/V Blue Heron
 
Jul 15, 2005
23
Catalina 30 Fort Myers, FL
Gee, Isn't sailing fun?

I haven't read the replies yet, so I'll probably repeat a lot of what's been said. I would: 1. Get life jackets on if not already on. 2. Call the Coast Guard, inform them of the situation and ask them to monitor my status periodically. 3. If the boat can reef main and jib, do so and sail out of the mess. 30 kts isn't that bad if you can reef properly. If you can't reef and get the boat halfway balanced under sail, you're probably going to close on the lee shore. Also you don't know if the wind is going to increase and all this time the seas are building. Time to start considering slowing your progress towards the shore, perhaps with an anchor, and asking for help.
 
D

Deborah Klais

response

First of all, I would never drop sail and try to motor against chop....sailboats are made to sail not motor. That chop would only stir up sediment in the tank. I would reduce the headsail or reef the main, maybe both depending on what my boat is (in my case it is an Ericson 30, she could take it) and start tacking up to my marina....when I got within a mile (most likely less than a mile), I would crank the engine and then perhaps take down the headsail and start heading for the harbor....Wouldn't take down the main until I got almost to my slip. Bad scenario for new sailors--probably ruined sailing forever for them.
 
M

Matt Hevron

What I would do...

1. Life jackets on all. 2. seasick companion to what will be the lee rail and make as comfortable as possible. 3. My wife and I bend the 1st reef into the main and hoist. That should give us some forward momentum and help stabilize the boat. 4. Hoist or unfurl an appropriate amount of headsail for the conditions and begin the beat to windward and safety, get offshore and away from rocks and shallows removing some of the chop. 5. Finally if necessary contact coast guard with position and info regarding loss of aux. power to alert them to follow your progress incase of further difficulties.
 
W

Walt

Deal With It

30 knots can be rough on rookies, but a 30 footer is not in any danger, provided you keep it afloat. Heck, most production boats need 15+ to get out of their tracks. Shout "Wow, you guys just got lucky...We finally got enough wind to show you what sailing is all about". After the first gust signaling approaching weather, have the next most experienced person break out foul weather gear, PFDs, and show the new guys how it all fits on. Show them how to clip into a safety line. Immediately, reduce sail. Reef the main, drop and secure (or furl) the jib, and inform the new guys that the cockpit will be much easier on them than staying below, but they usually don't believe it. I would never run downwind unless that was my destination...Head it up into the wind just one point off a luff. Most squalls or fronts will blow through within 15 minutes to an hour. Running downwind would extend the time you spent in the highest winds and present you with the problem of having a following wind and surfing, which is scary for newbies and demands more skill in boathandling. Rely on your sails, not the engine. The engine should be your back up, not your main plan. Start the engine, it might be a help. But this is a sailboat afterall. If it so rough the prop clears water, kill it. The smell, vibration, and the desire to head into the waves with the exacerbated motion would probably be too much for the new guys, especially when they see how little actual forward motion there is. Have the next most experienced person check below for items that need to be secured. Make sure the helmsman has a snack, a warm drink if possible, and something to clean his glasses with. If the new guys are still freaky, tell them to start writing their last note to the kids and you will put it into the wine bottle, as soon as you can finish it off. You know, something reassuring. Don't let them hear the VHF traffic, since way too many rookie skippers will be on the air confusing a spilled cocktail with an emergency. Then just sail and enjoy it.
 
M

mortyd

what would

i find it astounding how many how many daring sailors totally disregard the advice of rescue and tow services TO COMMUNICATE IMMEDIATELY ANY TROUBLE YOU FEEL YOU'RE IN. don't any of you wonder how many fewer 'WKS' might be on the charts if they had a vhf? how can any of you know that the situation posed by this question won't get worse - much worse? how does putting people in discomfort and danger increase your self image as blue water sailors?
 
C

capn Bill

Can I mention PANIC?!

The first time this situation happened to me I was a green sailor with no experiance in doing things quickly and efficiently. Needless to say - I screwed up several ways! To make a long story short - I sailed her back to harbor on minimal sail and had a friend tow me to my dock from there. Now I know there's no better course of action than situational awareness at all times. If you even suspect a squall, get the boat ready BEFORE the wind comes blasting through! Luckily, 7 miles is about the limit of distance I would be in case this happens. And - I DO have destination choices. Squalls like that don't last. Just ride it out - PREPARED. Bill on STARGAZER
 
Dec 2, 2003
392
Catalina 350 Seattle
Concise

Response #30 (Patrick Conner) has it. Concise, Thorough, in the proper order. I had read about 20 of these before anyone mentioned PFD. The next 10 had several mentions. Ever notice when monitoring the VHF that if someone calls the Coast Guard for assistance, one of the very first questions they ask is "Is Everyone Wearing a Life Jacket?"? On the subject of considering a tow - can you imagine how difficult it's going to be to rendezvous and hook up with a tow boat in high wind and bad sea conditions? That's no easy step in reasonably benign conditions, try going forward to catch and connect a towline on a pitching deck..... Good Luck! Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
 
M

mortyd

what would

tom brogan, i don't think you get it. why would you ask a green sailor - any sailor - to decide what a tow boat can or can't do? why wouldn't you leave that up to the tow boat? do you think most tow boats are only capable and prepared for calm windless water? plus, i never said call for a tow, all i said was to communicate. moody buccaneer seems to have agreed.
 
Dec 2, 2003
392
Catalina 350 Seattle
Communicate - I agree too!

Mortyd - Communicate - I agree also. The main point in my previous post was to get everyone in PFD's! If they all had them on when they left the dock, there wouldn't be a question. If they didn't have them on and things were going to heck, it's no time to regret not getting them on then. I wasn't suggesting that a tow boat wouldn't be capable of operating in difficult conditions, just like the sailboat is capable of operating in difficult conditions. I was suggesting that what the sailboat skipper might have to endure or risk in order to get him/herself attached to the very capable tow boat might be more hair raising than many of the other suggestions, such as pulling in a deep reef, heaving to, anchoring, etc. Good Luck! Tim Brogan April IV C350 #68 Seattle
 
M

mortyd

what would

one important point of agreement, nodody boards or stays aboard my boat without a pfd while above. over half the people who go off sailboats are hurt badly.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.