What would you do?

[OldCat]

Little Boats and Heaving too

Jon (frostgfx): Like you, I have a little boat, one with no keel and most of my sailing these days is on lakes. My boat is a 19’ catamaran, so please take my comments with that in mind, may be some differences to a small monohull. Things you will just need to try in calmer conditions to know your boat. On heaving too if you have to ride it out where you are and it is too much wind to sail in: Your boat may heave too with more stability on main alone, or better, reefed main, than it will with the jib backed and the main eased. There was a thread on how to heave too under main alone, it is recent and you should be able to find it in the archives. The reason that I say this is that I got “caught out” recently on my catamaran while on a lake. Lots of wind, but small waves due to the very short fetch. Without a keel, I think that if the jib had been up, there would have been enough wind pressure on the jib alone to capsize me by that force alone, especially if backed into hove too. The other problem is that our lake winds are shifty, a lift would have increased pressure on the jib before the boat could turn into it, increasing risk of capsize. In this recent windstorm, I sat for two hours mostly hove too under main alone, with streaks of foam on the water – so if I interpret Admiral Beaufort correctly, winds just into gale force. Heaving too properly for your boat works. My catamaran lies very well hove too under main alone – the key is to get the boat so luffed upwind that the mainsail is partially backed – blown into a sort of “S” shape.Another storm tactic is to lower the main and reach back and forth under jib alone. You should be able to keep your loss of searoom to a lee shore small this way, & buy time for the wind to drop or to make another plan. We rode out a thunderstorm microburst this way on a J22 earlier this year. Those do pass quickly, we only needed to buy a few minutes.Another option, if you can get the mainsail down is to take it down and run or reach to a downwind beach and beach the small boat. You don’t want the main up coming into a downwind beach in high winds – too dangerous as the main can broach or spin the boat around on the beach or knock it down or into you. If the waves are small enough, as they usually will be in a bay or lake, then this is a good way to go. You can jump out of the back of the boat on the windward side, and the wind will carry it away from you. Release the jib sheet and let the sail flog when you hit the beach - to get the power out of it - and get the sail down as soon as you can.I would worry about beaching upwind – as then you will need the mainsail up and a shift in wind with a capsize could bring the boat on top of you, not good.An anchor is a good idea – I watched a Mac 26 ride a storm that way at a local lake earlier this year. We had seen it coming, and beaten it to the beach. The Mac needed the crowded boat ramp to get off the lake – and wisely chose to anchor instead of dealing with the yo-yos there.Know how to right your boat in the event of capsize, have a rope ladder or similar to aid re-boarding – something to hook your feet on. Make sure all sheets are uncleated and lots of line run out so the sails luff big when you right the boat. If you are in cooler or cold waters – consider wearing a 2-3mm wetsuit – water ski or sail board type. Our local water is warm ‘till fall when I will need the suit, and I always wore a wetsuit on any trip outside the bays when I sailed my catamaran in Southern California.Sorry for the loooong post, hope this helps,OC

 

[Anchor Down]

Re-arranging Deck Chairs on the Titanic

Okay, if you're going to give me 3.5-foot swells instead of 5-footers, I'll gladly take them. But this wasn't an exercise in meteorological theory, primarily.Franklin, I agree, but a "windward shore" wasn't specified in the given situation: it was assumed by some initial responders. It might be there, or you could be beating up with a long stretch of shore parallel to your rhumb line, and then have to turn into the channel. Since it wasn't in the original post, I didn't try to create one. But if it's there, I am soo anchored in it's lee! That goes for a seawall, too.Ctskip, allow me to suggest that ignoring the physical and emotional comfort of your passengers isn't good seamanship. Considering them just "the crier" and "the puker," and leaving them out of the information loop and/or giving them nothing positive to do just leaves you with a bigger overall problem to deal with, instead of turning them into resources that can be applied to the situation. A good skipper will at least try to alleviate some of their discomfort/suffering. A cavalier attitude as skipper in this moment could cause, at the least, extra burden for you, and at the most, the loss of friendships. It's very macho, but irresponsible.Part of leaderhip is affective: inspiring, enthusing, and communicating effectively to your team to bring out the best in them, especially in adverse situations.Jon, in a sailing dinghy, it's wise to have a current weather forecast in your pocket before you decide to go out. Sea anchors are open-water devices. In the (mostly) protected waters that dinghy sailors ply, the two tactics you want to know how to employ are heaving-to (for controlled downwind motion) and forereaching (sailing very high into the wind by "pinching up," usually under main only, and de-powering your mainsail. Reading up and practicing in good weather will give you the skills to deal with (relatively) high winds in a small open boat.

 

[jviss]

Let's make it real

A spot very similar the initial scenario - almost exactly, and the weather suggest can do (and often does) exactly as suggested. Buzzard's tower, at 41 23.782N, 71 01.995W is 3 miles West of Cuttyhunk, which ahas the infamous "sow and Pigs" shoal to it's Western shore; and it's 7 miles South of WH, the harbor entrance buoy for Westport. In the afternoon you can get a siff breeze from teh NNW, right on the nose going back to Westport, and a 5' chop rolling in from the WSW. It gets worse as it is complicated by the durrents in at the entrance to Buzzards Bay, North of Cuttyhunk, adn I've seen "square seas" off Sow and Pigs. I've also seen people suffering after having furled sails to motor North into Westport, when sailing or motorsailing close hauled, beating to windward is actually much more comfortable.So, my answer is that I almost never furl sails, because if the engine quits entering Westport harbor, which can ebb at 2.5 to 3 knots at hte entrance, there is little option but to anchor and then set sail or call for help. If those folks were at Buzzard's tower, they should just cal Towboat US or the Westport Harbormaster to come and get them.

 

[Tim Sheehy]

Well it's a sailboat isn't it?

Well...it IS a sailboat isn't it? I think in this type of situation the skipper's demeanor and responses have a lot to do with the tactical and emotional outcome of the experience. As the skipper, your most important responsibility is for the safety of the passengers, crew and the ship...both physical and experiential. My response would be as follows:- stay calm- communicate your calm and in-control demeanor by calmly and quietly explaining what it is you need to do, how you are going to do it, and then enlisting the assistance of your passengers and crew to execute.- no motor....? Well, that's what sails are for. Get underway with reduced sail...a reefed main and a storm jib or furled jib ( with 30 knots of wind just the furled jib should give you enough front-end windage to help you steer the boat) and make for the marina. - set expectations. Let your frightened passengers know that the boat can easily handle the wind and the waves and although they make look threatening, the boat has been designed to withstand much worse. - explain the route and what is required to navigate it.- explain why tacking is necessary and how it works to get you to your destination.- have your passengers in the cockpit if possible as seasickness is usually worse below-decks.- rig a lifeline- make sure everyone is wearing a PFD and is clipped to the lifeline- sing sea shanties and try to make the best of the situation.- remind them of what a great story they will have to tell on Monday morning at the water-cooler.

 

[Franklin]

Let's up the anty

Has anybody here ever sailed in 50+ knots before? I've always wondered if I could feather (pinch or forereach) and make progress against a 50+ knot wind with just a storm sail main up. I'm not sure if I could generate enough power (but not too much that stress on the rig is a concern and being danerously over healed) to over compensate the push against the hull backwards. If I can't make progress, then there is a good posibility I can't steer either.Just been wondering about that.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Anchor Down

I agree with most everything you've said, as far as handling an emergency. The only emergency in this situation is that the boat needs a skipper.Leadership and inspiring confidence in your crew and guests is part of being a good skipper in my book.Good skippers tend to have action plans for most foreseeable situations. Having a plan goes a long way to set the mood positive when something unusual comes up. I don't don't know anyone that I consider a good skipper that would have dropped the sails and motored in those conditions. Since the skipper in the scenario has already demonstrated a capacity for bad judgement, I see no reason to expect he or she to develop leadership skills in the midst of the fire drill they have created.

 

[Ctskip]

Leadership

I've got a rocky shore to my back and 30 mph winds on the nose ,no motor and sails down and you want me to be comforting to someone who is barfing and his mate is sobbing? Thats got nothing to do with being macho. It has to do with taking care of business. A captain that is well prepared for anything mother nature can throw at him has his act together and the comfort part can come later. Now is the time to rise and if you (puker), can't rise then I will do all of it. After all it is my boat and I'm ready. I will get you there in one piece,safe and sound. I'm not about to forget about the wind and rocks to comfort a sick person. First things first.Thats all. Stay with me and you'll get there. No frills unless you bring them. Keep it up, Ctskip  PS: I'm not looking for popularity and friendship. I'm looking to get home in one piece. A good skipper will do this,come hell or high water. A plan and a positive attitude and straightforwardness is what is needed. Not consoling and babying.

 

[Scott]

Ok, so let's be a sailor ...

This is an interesting scenerio. We're in 30 knot winds, the sails are down and the engine won't run. Things aren't so bad yet. We've all got PFD's on, we called CG to let them know our situation and that we intend to attempt to sail to our marina. We've regrouped and everybody is ready work as a team.My questions are as follows, since I have not attempted raise sails in these kind of winds without the engine to assist me in keeping bow to wind. I assume I won't be able to raise the main and set a deep reef first since it will be impossible to keep bow to wind. Do we raise raise the hanked storm jib or unfurl the headsail to a storm jib size to get the boat sailing first?I've sailed our boat in 30 knot wind (but with no waves) with the jib alone. We have a masthead rig. I found that a close reach is achievable, but do we attempt to pass the head thru the wind to heave to in order to get into a stable position to raise the main?Or do we sail on close reaches (not making much headway) and maintain stability while we are slowly making our way upwind? When it is necessary to tack, do we attempt to head upwind or gybe? I've found that a gybe is fairly easy with just the jib in high wind, but that is with no waves. With 5' rollers are we better off heading in one direction on a close reach away from the lee shore to get some sea room and wait for the blow to ease up before raising the main. I'd be worried about a broach with the seas as they are in this situation. What are the thoughts?I also thought that it may be possible to head up with the jib to get some momentum and raise the main quickly as the nose is on the wind before it is necessary to fall off again to maintain some way on. It may take a coordinated effort with the helmsman and the crew and it may take more than one attempt to get the main up enough with the reef already set.Basically, my question is ... what are the techniques that should be considered in order to get the main raised (and reefed) when you don't have the engine available to keep your bow into the wind? If you need to heave to, how do you accomplish this? Or are you better off dealing with the situation with just your storm jib?

 

[jviss]

50 kts. situation

I've been in a steady 30 kt. blow and the boat sails fine if you know how to shorten sail (C36). It never seems to stay at 30 or more knots very long, 'though it can seem to blow 20 or 22 all day. If it go tot 50 kt. and seemed as if it was going to stay that way for a while, I'd sail the boat for survival rather than trying to make a particular port. If I were at Buzzards tower and it blew 50 from the North, I'd head to sea, SSW towards Montauk buoy, 23 nautical miles SW of Montauk point. Once I cleared the traffic and dangers from shoals, I'd stand off shore by either heaving-to or sailing back and forth. I'd make sure I had communications with someone who I could inform of my position and intentions, and that my batteries were charged up in case I had to stand off 'til morning. Meanwhile if we could get some soup and sandwiches going, we would. No alcohol. Stay hydrated, stay calm, warm, and dry.

 

[Ross]

I think that one factor that is being ignored

here is that at 30 kts the wind is blowing 9 times as hard as at 10 kts. Therefore not very much sail area is needed to give you steerage and control of the boat. I don't believe that most pleasure boats are equiped to reduce sail enough to sail in conditions that have been described. Can anyone here reduce sail by 80 percent without hoisting storm sails? when do you hoist storm sails? and do you even carry storm sails?

 

[jviss]

Question about 80%

Ross, I never heard the 80% number, where does it come from? I have three reef points in my main, the first being just a flattening reef, adn two reinforced reef points on my jib, although I could theoretically roll it in to any point. I've sailed in 30 to 35 all reefed up and it seemed like I didn't hae too much sail. It's important to flatten the sails as much as possible, and of course depower with the sheets appropriately.

 

[Franklin]

sail area

Ross, from my two experiences, you can sail in 30 knots if you have roller furling main and jib or just a 110 jib on a fractional mast. You will need to spill air though.If you feather (pinch or forereach) then you can handle a lot more wind but if you have too much sail up for the conditions, of course your going to want a good helms man. This is why I say I would feather in this situation. For those who haven't tried it, I highly recommend trying it someday.As for 50 knots not sticking around...I sat at anchor one night with 50+ for an hour and then it calmed down to 20-30 knots for a few more hours. I sure am glad I wasn't sailing but have wondered ever since if I could feather in that type of wind. Considering the effect it had on my boat at anchor, I sure wouldn't want to try heaving to under that kind of wind unless it was the last option. Because somehow my rode got wrapped around my keel and took the wind on the beam, I was at a 50-60 degree heel for most of the time and that was without any sail up.

 

[Ross]

Jviss, 80 percent was somewhat arbitrary,

but if you can sail comfortably at 10 -12 kts. then 30-36 kts. blows 9 times as hard. An 80 percent reduction in sail area still leaves more sail power in place than at 10 kts. Granted that the center of effort is brought lower with each reef and we can depower our sails by trim, the force of the wind cannot be denied. Therefore we must be able to reduce sail area to avoid over powering the boat.

 

[jviss]

There's always bare poles!

Hey Franklin, another good argument for an all-chain rode! On wind speeds, the only time I've seen 50 or more kts. in teh summer time has been either due to a hurricane or a thunderstorm. Hurricanes you get plenty of warning. T-storms, the wind doesn't last that long.

 

[G. Bean, s/v Freya]

Forget about taking up golf…

… After the divorce the skipper probably won’t have enough money left over to buy a set of used clubs. I wonder what the drive home with the wife was like after a trip like that? Kudos to Gary Wyngarden for coming up with the scenario. Thought provoking and quite illuminating. Keep them coming.In regards to raising sails. In this scenario, raising the main is problematic as the boat is lying a hull, beam on to the wind. I would raise/unfurl the jib first and get the boat moving to windward. The boat will stop gyrating and begin to pitch more but you can still raise the main with the mainsheet eased all the way out. Setting the reef is also easier if the main is on the boom. Yes, the wind pressure at 30+ kts is unbelievably strong even if you are used to sailing with winds in the twenties. It always amazes me how calm (and boring!) it feels when it drops to twenty after a day in the thirties. We use a blade (90-95%, straight leech and high clew) when the winds are predicted to be high along with reefing the main. Modern sloops are not designed well for running storm sails. To effectively use storm sails you need a cutter rig where you can run up the storm jib on a baby stay and you have running back stays that can take up the load produced by a deeply reefed main. On S.F. Bay, we only sail in these conditions a few days each year. I haven’t sailed in 50kts (nor do I want to!). Those survival conditions are more in kin with the 79 Fastnet or the Sydney-Hobart race than the pleasure sailing I do. I did encounter 40+ kts one night going down to SoCal. But I have flown spinnakers in 30kts before (apparent wind drops to the teens when you’re really hauling, but man, trimming that beast takes a lot out of you.)

 

[Mark Wieber]

Totally Defensive

Rooky crew, Lee shore in three miles, wind at 30 plus knots, five foot sea's and a failed engine. #1) get some sail up, steady the boat, and attempt to stop progress toward the "rocky" lee shore. In a "production" sail boat this is pretty servere weather.#2) RPM's "dropped off", and engine stalled while motoring diretly upwind. This has a pretty high probability of being a fuel supply problem (I probably have not polished the fuel or serviced the tanks in 10 years, and the rough weather has bounced the crud up from the bottom of the tank and clogged the fuel filter). No mention is made of a failed radio or nav system, so I will assume electrical is functioning. If I had spare filters, I would try to get the engine running, or at least know why I can't. Then I would head for the closest available shelter. Sea sick, or scared passengers need to be instructed to keep warm and dry in the 'house', they will be a liability on deck anyway. The captains job is to get the boat home safely. Today, tonight, tomorrow, all less important. Docked at an alternate marina, or anchored in the safest place available. Almost dying is a blast as long as you don't and it gives you a great "no-shit, there I was" story. Your friends may be angry, hungry, and sick at first but they will recall the story at parties for years, and you will be the hero that got them home safe

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Turning the boat ...

Scott raises a good question. How do we get the boat close to head to wind to get the main up?The first things that spring to mind are:With a small jib you should be able to sail close enough to the wind to raise the main.If the boat will not head up with a small jib:1. If the water is deeper than the length of your ground tackle, drop the anchor and pay out most of the rode. The drag of the anchor line will act as a drogue to bring the bow close to the wind. This will make the boat's motion easier while you get the main up. If the water is shallower than the length of your rode, I'd be tempted to un-shackle the anchor and just toss the chain and rode into the sea. I don't want the anchor to set, since retrieving it under sail in these conditions would be a new challenge.2. If you have a small drogue for your life ring, use that on a couple of hundred feet of line to bring the boat head to wind.3. Finally a case for a main sail furling! It shouldn't be a problem to get enough main out to start the boat moving with a furling main.Ross,The amount of power that the the sails create is not a simple function of area. You are quite correct that the force *available* increases with the square of the wind speed. 3 times the wind is nine times the force. However, in 10 knots we are trimming for maximum power. In 30 knots we have more than all the power we need, so we are trimming for just enough power. Flat sails and small trim angles to extract only 10% of the available power is all we need. A deep 2nd reef and a good 100% blade will get the power we need with enough efficiency to sail the boat upwind in 30 knots almost as well as with the 150 and a full main in 15 knots.

 

[jviss]

Raising the main

I don't think setting a jib will broing the head to wind. Although I never sail on the jib alone, I think in high winds and rough seas setting hte jib would be more likely to turn the stern to the wind than the other way around; but I'd like to hear form more folks on this. With the main down I'd sheet the boom in to the center of the boat, tie in the deepest reef, and hoist the main. On my boat the first third or so of the main goes up easily regardless of the wind, and the rest can be winched up. If the halyard winch is not enough, you can lead the halyard to the primary. As the sail goes up it will tend to bring hte head to wind, which will make hoisting fully easier. I'd hoist it up tight and then puull in all of the vang tension I could get to flatten it as much as possible, and then, since I'd probably be close to head to wind by now, fall off onto a close reach. A little jib now would trim out the weather helm, and you're off to the races!Forget about trying to start the engine! It's tough enough to change filters, 2 of them, and bleed the fuel system at the mooring, never mind in heavy weather. Do you have a remote starter switch and electric fuel pump switch at the engine bay so you do this unassisted? Have you ever done it before? Know where all the necessary tools are? I have done it several times, and I can imagine doing it under stressful conditions.

 

[jviss]

Raising the main

I don't think setting a jib will broing the head to wind. Although I never sail on the jib alone, I think in high winds and rough seas setting hte jib would be more likely to turn the stern to the wind than the other way around; but I'd like to hear form more folks on this. With the main down I'd sheet the boom in to the center of the boat, tie in the deepest reef, and hoist the main. On my boat the first third or so of the main goes up easily regardless of the wind, and the rest can be winched up. If the halyard winch is not enough, you can lead the halyard to the primary. As the sail goes up it will tend to bring hte head to wind, which will make hoisting fully easier. I'd hoist it up tight and then puull in all of the vang tension I could get to flatten it as much as possible, and then, since I'd probably be close to head to wind by now, fall off onto a close reach. A little jib now would trim out the weather helm, and you're off to the races!Forget about trying to start the engine! It's tough enough to change filters, 2 of them, and bleed the fuel system at the mooring, never mind in heavy weather. Do you have a remote starter switch and electric fuel pump switch at the engine bay so you do this unassisted? Have you ever done it before? Know where all the necessary tools are? I have done it several times, and I can imagine doing it under stressful conditions.

 

[Bill Roosa]

50 kt wind

The issue when you get that much wind blowing is the waves not the wind. But let's stay on subject. In a 50 kt wind the freeboard of the hull is going to be contributing significantly to the "sail area" and in a bad way. Also the furled headsail, other standing rigging and bimini and such contribute to windage in a bad way. The book "storm tactics" suggests the following items in no particular order.Don't us a para anchor over the bow. They just don't work as advertised in this situation. Also recovery is VERY hard and dangerous.Do put up the storm jib on a inner stay. The forestay should have the roller furled jib taken down to reduce windage. The thinking being the extra windage "up front" keeps the boat from being able to turn upwind and the storm jib has to be raised closer to the mast to keep the sail areas in balance. A storm jib on the forestay will cause the boat to be out of balance which will only make your job harder.Do put up a tri-sail. There where mixed reviews as to the actual sail configuration as different boats required different sails and the sails where all different. The gleanings where to know your boat and sail configuration and don't be afraid to experiment in 40 kt winds to find out what works.Sail upwind or downwind depending on where you want to go. Reaches where right out as they expose the boat to the waves. Did I mention waves where the more dangerous thing in this situation?Trailing warps or a series drogue or anchors on their rode helped to slow the boat down and make it more comfortable for the crew to ride out the storm below.Use a self steering system for as long as you can and save your energy for the really bad part of the storm where you will have to manually steer the boat.And finally step up into the life raft. There must have been 15 stories of folks who did not make it because they abandoned ship after a rollover (waves again) and the boat was found 3 months later with no mast but afloat and in some cases with no water inside. Stay with the boat!!!There was one picture of a boat (~35') going to windward with only a storm jib on the inner stay and the winds where 70 kts. They arrived safely but tired. It can be done but preparation is the key. Which is what I have taken away from this thread. Be prepared and practice BEFORE you need the skill.