What qualifies as “advanced”; when rating sailing ability?

[Kings Gambit]

Suppose you’re wishing to organize a sailing adventure for a few boats (not a big rally), such as a cruise to Haida Gwaii from Vancouver. Or, a cruise from New Orleans to the Dry Tortugas, then on to Key West. You wish only “advanced cruisers“ as in the principle “a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.” But what are the criteria? It’s not like having completed “advanced” coursework confers anything regarding actual ability. The number of years of boat ownership, or the number of weekend trips per year to a popular destination, would also seem to offer little proof of “advanced“ ability. Where to start? Say we start with a look at the boat. What would we take as suggestive of an “advanced” ability of its skipper?

 

[Brian D]

It’s not like having completed “advanced” coursework confers anything regarding actual ability.

Unfortunately that is exactly what it is. Education trumps experience in many ways, say those set the rules. You can have an advanced degree in something and never work in that field, but still be called an expert. It is unfortunate.

Length of ownership does not count unless one has the same amount of time on the water in that boat. I have owned a boat since 2005 but do not consider myself advanced. This in part due to the fact I stay close to the coast (no more than 12 nautical miles). I have never sailed in bad weather nor have I visited the islands off the coast of California. The most I ever spent on my boat at one time was about 12 hours between San Diego and my home port. So I cannot claim "advanced" seamanship.

All this is just my opinion.

 

[Jackdaw]

Resume.

In-charge experience over the the last 5 year on multi-day trips. If its going to be off-shore, then the experience must include overnight sailing, watch-keeping, weather planning etc.

While certifications have their uses, I know many ASA 104 'graduates' that I would not let sail my boat across a pond.

 

[dlochner]

To start I'd like to see the boat and its general condition and equipment. Then I'd look to see how comfortable the person is on his boat. Why did the owner choose the equipment on board?

 

[jssailem]

You wish only “advanced cruisers“... But what are the criteria?...It’s not like having completed “advanced” coursework confers anything regarding actual ability.... Where to start?

This is an interesting exercise. Perhaps starting is best done by defining the words used and the parameters to be used to identify them.

What skills/knowledge/experience identifies an advanced cruiser?

Am I advanced if I have sailed alone in the waters I know? Do the waters I have sailed influence my qualifications? These elements of skill/accomplishment are components of a "resume" and in the absence of other supporting information may be criteria if sailing in the same waters but of little value sailing in unchartered waters.

For the "cruise" we are to assume that the individual will own their own boat. Does the evaluation only extend to the boat owner or the quality of the boat? Or will the required qualifications extend to crew as well? I noted in looking at the VanIsle 360 that the race committee set minimum standards as to Skipper and Crew with regard to their "performance" record (resume). They must have participated (finished) in specified races as both skipper and watch leadership in order to be considered for participation in the race. This race committee defined their race requirements after years of competition and experience in the waters the race is held. One of the announcements specifies that participants enter at their own risk and due to the nature of the waters being sailed must be self reliant as help may be days away.

Will experience on the Pacific Ocean be applicable to conditions on the North Atlantic or the Caribbean?

 

[Kings Gambit]

Resume.

In-charge experience over the the last 5 year on multi-day trips. If its going to be off-shore, then the experience must include overnight sailing, watch-keeping, weather planning etc.

While certifications have their uses, I know many ASA 104 'graduates' that I would not let sail my boat across a pond.

I agree that having overnight experience as skipper would be quite important for advanced standing. One good way to acquire it is by entering overnight races, such as the Isla Mujeres, N2E, and ‘Round Santa Barbara Island, etc. Also, by joining a rally to a distant destination, such as with the Baja HaHa (San Diego to Cabo San Lucas). Still, a stringent criterion for most, particularly with a 5-yr expiration, although the races and rallys are annual events.

 

[capta]

In my opinion it would have to be comfort level (gained from experience) for what one plans to do. Anyone who'd happily jump aboard their boat and given a decent, though by no means guarantied weather window, for a voyage to the Dry Tortugas from NO, would fit the bill. Anyone who questioned the voyage at all, asking what ifs and showing any trepidation would not fit the bill, IMO. This I don't believe can come from education, but rather from self confidence and confidence that their vessel can take whatever comes it's way.
However, if you asked me to join in hurricane season, I'd probably decline the offer, thanks. lol

 

[dlochner]

If the sailor is not known to you, then the BS factor should not be over looked. Some one who is boasting about his boat or skills or the weather he's sailed in, might not be a good candidate, I'd prefer someone who is more modest and honest about their skill levels. As the saying goes, "its not what you know that gets you into trouble, it's what you know that ain't so."

 

[jon hansen]

making up definitions for made up terms is fun.

3x 365=1,095, so, 1,095 days (24hr days) at sea should be a minimum time for one to start claiming an "advanced" claim for their skills on a boat.
LOL, jon

 

[Kings Gambit]

To start I'd like to see the boat and its general condition and equipment. Then I'd look to see how comfortable the person is on his boat. Why did the owner choose the equipment on board?

I would look for specific items of equipment/functionality in addition to the boat’s overall condition. Two examples. Is the boat rigged, or can it be quickly rigged, properly for reefing? Is the boat carrying at least two sets of ground tackle; both anchors, each of a different type, the correct size for the boat? Why? B/c anyone who anchors A LOT knows the need for that capability.

 

[jssailem]

Anyone who questioned the voyage at all, asking what ifs and showing any trepidation would not fit the bill,

I would think that asking the "What Ifs" is a sign of mental pre planning. Considering the issues to evaluate your boat and your crew's capabilities in consideration of participation. I would be a little more leery of the individual who just jumped up and said "Let's go" than one who started checking off a list of go no go considerations, as in "Not during Hurricane Season".

 

[jon hansen]

as a young pup, the first set of papers i had was "ordinary seaman". that qualified you to be a deckhand and a deckwatch. nothing more. the coastguard required you the be signed on a ship for a minimum of 1,095 days before you could go to "able bodied seaman" school and study to write your AB's ticket. with the AB ticket you could sail as a wheelsman, watchman, or bosun. these are unlicensed positions on ships.
hence, i think for this made up term of 'advanced' sailor, that three years at sea would be a good place to start

and remember, these are 'minimum' requirements, prolly many more years at sea to really hone one's skills and feel 'advanced'

 

[Kings Gambit]

If the sailor is not known to you, then the BS factor should not be over looked. Some one who is boasting about his boat or skills or the weather he's sailed in, might not be a good candidate, I'd prefer someone who is more modest and honest about their skill levels. As the saying goes, "its not what you know that gets you into trouble, it's what you know that ain't so."

Actually, what I‘ve encountered are folks who have overestimated their skill and experience, but honestly so. Not exactly BS. But, they may be unaware of where they are lacking in “advanced“ ability. One example I recall is with a couple we were cruising with several years ago. Sailing near one another, we encountered a situation where we needed to stop suddenly to avoid a collision. We “stopped” but they did not know how to “stop” their boat under sail. (Not enough practice holding one’s positionIng at a starting line.)This led to some scrambling and “panic” for them.

 

[jon hansen]

i had been captaining dad's 38' alden, US ONE design. with my bud's when just 14. that did not mean much (it meant nothing) to the boys on the ships

 

[JohnShannon]

So one gate would be a minimum equipment list. Going offshore make sure they have at least the equipment to reef their sails and a functioning VHF with DSC. GPS and backup GPS paper charts.. Lifejackets fire extinguisher anchor and rode.....

 

[Kings Gambit]

hence, i think for this made up term of 'advanced' sailor, that three years at sea would be a good place to start

It may indeed be a “made up“ term, as it cannot be easily defined except by completion of “advanced“ course work or by time in service, the implicit assumption being, I suppose, that if you are there long enough then you will learn everything you need to know to that point. More than just the basics.

 

[Kings Gambit]

So one gate would be a minimum equipment list. Going offshore make sure they have at least the equipment to reef their sails and a functioning VHF with DSC. GPS and backup GPS paper charts.. Lifejackets fire extinguisher anchor and rode.....

It’s not enough to know that someone has the equipment, but is it fully functional? For example, there are many DSC-capable radios out there but there are also many not programed with an MMSI number. Fewer still have built a directory. A fully working DSC radio is an important component of “fleet cruising“ IMHO. Not being able to use it effectively hinders best operation of the fleet.

 

[DrJudyB]

If you are organizing a flotilla, tell would-be participants that they must be self sufficient and cannot rely on being rescued by others In the flotillla. They have to judge their own competency. the trip you are describing is near shore. If the weather is nasty, and the skipper is worried, the skipper can stay in safe harbor.

if you want to be set standards for who is competent to make the voyage, you’re assuming a lot of liability. Unless you taught the sailors yourself, there is no way you can evaluate if they are competent to make the voyage as planned. I wouldn’t put myself i that position.

having said that, I think you can have a conversation with prospective skippers and discourage them if you think they are getting in over their heads.

It’s okay to require that the boats are at least a certain size, capable of motoring for a certain range and minimum speed, and equipped to certain standard, including electronics and safety gear like tethers and jacklines. Offshore racing rules provide guidelines you can copy as a starting point. But, keep in mind that small boats can and do make trips like you describe. I’ve done a bunch of cruises in flotillas in a small boat that wasn’t an “ offshore” boat.

if you want, you might require that a skipper Has done a similar cruise previously, but that will probably exclude a lot of good sailors. Keep in mind that Every skipper who has done that had a first time.

JudyB

 

[Michael Davis]

It may indeed be a “made up“ term, as it cannot be easily defined except by completion of “advanced“ course work or by time in service, the implicit assumption being, I suppose, that if you are there long enough then you will learn everything you need to know to that point. More than just the basics.

I’ve been sailing for quite a while (66yrs). In the four years we’ve owned this boat we’ve cruised for 17 1/2 months, Victoria to Alaska and twice around Vancouver Island. Still learning everyday, not advanced yet!

 

[Kings Gambit]

I’ve been sailing for quite a while (66yrs). In the four years we’ve owned this boat we’ve cruised for 17 1/2 months, Victoria to Alaska and twice around Vancouver Island. Still learning everyday, not advanced yet!

Just suppose we have Beginner, Intermediate, ADVANCED, & Expert. Becoming Expert, some say, is when you know more and more about less and less until you know everything about nothing! So, that category remains out there for many of us still to grow into!