What makes a 30' boat heavy sea worthy?

Roger Long · Jan 4, 2009

You are looking for absolutes where there aren’t any. Far less capable boats than yours have made circumnavigations. Far more capable ones have gone down in coastal waters and even within sight of land. Ken Barnes in his cost-is-no-object 44 foot steel ketch leaves her dismasted in the southern ocean while grandmother Donna Lange just keeps trucking on in her funky, low budget, 28 footer less than 120 miles away. There is a highly statistical component in all questions of vessel safety.

The crew is the all too over looked factor. A significant portion of abandoned vessels are later found floating in recoverable condition. Captain Bligh took a grossly overloaded open boat 3000 miles with almost no equipment. A professional delivery captain and three strong guys push the easy button and leave an undamaged 40 footer that is not taking on water four days out of Bermuda. Donna Lange comes along single handed the next year and spends about the same amount of time in worse weather, THEN loses her self steering and spends 36 hours at the helm bringing her boat into Bermuda unassisted.

I highly recommend “Force 10” about the deadly Fastnet race. A lot of those boats were as delicate as yours and many survived despite being mishandled.

http://www.amazon.com/Fastnet-Force-10-Deadliest-History/dp/0393308650

The quote on this page of my website is one of my favorite bits of nautical wisdom:

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/Seamanship.htm

I’ve been a better and safer sailor ever since I read it. There is an instinct that adrenalin and excitement are essential to dealing with any emergency. Quite the reverse.

None of this is to say that it’s all a crap shoot so that vessel, equipment, and preparation are not important. The seaman does everything possible, practically and economically, to stack the deck, knowing that it can never be enough. Knowledge and understanding of the specific vessel’s weaknesses and vulnerabilities is essential to its safe management. Even with a light production coastal boat like yours, you yourself are more likely to be the cause of a voyage not completed than the vessel.

The question of what it is appropriate for you to do in your Catalina is a personal and philosophical one more than a technical one. The spectrum of risk is just too wide and the sea too uncertain for there to be easy answers. People will respond here about what they would or would not do with your boat. However, those answers will be about them. They may offer some hints but there are much deeper and more complicated questions you need to be asking.

kloudie1 · Jan 4, 2009

EXACTLY right, Roger, The pilot in command is the thing that mostly determines the seaworthiness of a vessel.. A lot of it is preparatiion and a lot of it is experience based judgment and seamanship.. Scott, your post will probably start some discussions about righting ratios and angles of stability but it ultimately comes down to the captain! Plan it and do it ! Learn the boat in the next couple of years!

Bill Roosa · Jan 4, 2009

personality vs potental

If there is one truth in sailing it is:
It ain't the size of the boat under the man, it is the size of the man in the boat.
Arm yourself with good weather forecasting capabilities and learn how to read the weather maps and you can avoid 95% of all heavy weather.

With that said I suspect that the decision to purchase a C30 is on of those things that tends to select (over the statistically population) folks that have big dreams and small experience. It is a sexy boat. That combination is in diametric opposition to the above truism. Kinda like the guy that buys a Corvette, he wants to (statistically speaking, not pointing any fingers here) go fast and not do any maintenance. You don't expect him to be a great mechanic. Unfortunately being a great race car driver will not get him through the race when he meets a mechanical challenge.
So you have a (statistically speaking again) a population of C30 owners that get into difficult situation due to lack of experience and have a bad experience on the boat. What do you think they blame, the boat or themselves?
So your perception that C30s are bad heavy weather boats may only mean that C30s are more likely to be owned by folks that would have a bad heavy weather experience no matter what boat they crewed on rather than any intrinsic boat failing.

Ross · Jan 4, 2009

Re: personality vs potental

I would recommend "Storm Tactics" By Lin and Larry Pardey as additional reading. Everything that has been said so far is bang on. A more or less full keel with an attached rudder makes the boat a lot more directionally stable. Plenty of handholds are essential to keeping you on your feet and the ease of moving around on deck is a real plus.

Ken Honeycutt · Jan 4, 2009

Re: personality vs potental

I wondered if my 1984 31' Hunter would make it to the Bahamas...then I read Roger Mummah's book about cruising their 31' Hunter to the Bahamas. Roger used to post on this forum but haven't seen anything from him for a couple of years. Make a long story short - if your goal is the Bahama's I'd read Rogers book.. Cruising Endless Summer. Lot of good information on sailing a 30 foot production boat to the Bahama's as far as provisioning, anchoring, marinas, weather windows etc. (not much difference between your Catalina and the Hunter).

David in Sandusky · Jan 4, 2009

The Pacific Cup Handbook by Jim and Sue Corenman includes a lot of excellent description of requirements for the boat systems, supplies, crew, and equipment for blue water sailing. An excellent book for understanding why some boat designs may be better for heavy weather is Roger Marshall's Choosing a Cruising Sailboat. If you are serious about this question, and are intending to sail off-shore, then I recommend you do some serious reading, and see if you can crew on an offshore delivery, or race.

We discuss this issue a lot on this site - here is the summary of my conclusions:

The capsize screen was developed years ago, after extensive research (including tank tests of different hull designs) prompted by the Fastnet race disaster. Capsize screens below 2.00 tend to be safer in heavy weather, those above less so. Since then, every sailboat designer understands this ratio, and knows that others will evaluate their designs using it. The Catalina 30 Mk II has a capsize screen of 2.00 by my calculations, and according to Marshall's book. (The 1.84 listed on this website is incorrect for the displacement and beam shown.) This means that the designer did not have offshore heavy weather performance as a high priority for the boat.

We chartered this boat for a week in the San Juans. We rated it the best of the 8 different boats we have chartered for this purpose. But if I were planning to buy a boat to cruise offshore in heavy weather I would look elsewhere.

Note that that like many coastal cruisers, the Catalina would be both safe and reasonably comfortable in heavy weather near the shore where you could make it to a safe port in under 24 hours. To me, the offshore concept means dealing with heavy weather for days, and the capability to survive a capsize.

Roger Long · Jan 4, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
You said 'alot of those boats were as delicate as yours..' what is delicate about it?

I didn't intend to single out the Catalina. It is simply a production boat primarily intended for fair weather coastal sailing. It's not a Feya, Valiant 40, Westsail, or other type intended for long distance cruising and greater exposure to heavy weather. That doesn't mean that it is not capable of surviving severe conditions with proper handling.

There are two basic kinds of losses.

The first is where a perfectly sound and uncompromised boat is suddenly wrecked. The freak sea capsize is in this category.

Far more common is the vessel and crew simply being worn down. Repeated impacts expose a weak spot in the structure or rig. Systems such as pumps break down and the problems cascade. Crew fatigue plays a big part in this, becoming too tired and seasick to clear a pump sump or troubleshoot an engine that won't start, for examples. Fatigue can also result in poor decision making that can lead to an accident in the first category.

Again, luck, probability, statistics, (whatever you want to call it) plays a big part. My boat is not the one I would have picked if I were planning a circumnavigation or cruising that was primarily blue water passages from one port to another. My goal is extensive coastal cruising. Cruising the coast and islands of Scotland is on my bucket list. The only way to get the boat there in my economic circumstances is to sail it over. I would consider doing that. The exposure is just one trip. I wouldn't have done it before my boys were grown and I would get another boat if I intended to do it a lot but I think it's a reasonable level of risk in my specific circumstances.

henkmeuzelaar · Jan 4, 2009

Aaah, the capsize screening factor......

Don't worry, if your boat has a bad CSF just hoist a heavy weight into the top of the mast and that calculation will come out a LOT better!

Have fun!!

Flying Dutchman

Maine Sail · Jan 4, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
Roger-I just ordered Force10. Also your site is extensive as well as the work on your boat. You said 'alot of those boats were as delicate as yours..' what is delicate about it?

I would tend to disagree with that a lot of the boats in Fastnet were "delicately" built. Even Grimalkin, one of the smallest, was a fairly robust 30 footer for a racer. She was designed by Ron Holland and built by Camper Nicholson. While arguably lightly built she could still not be compared or put into the same class as a C-30 in terms of construction.

Here is an example of hull reinforcement on a Nicholson Half Tonner:

Cruising to the Bahamas is, and should be, fairly tame if you chose your windows wisely.

Having owned a C-30 these are some areas I would have concern over for serious off shore work..

Cabinetry: It should be reinforced and held in place by more than just a few screws. Having been dropped of a wave in a very heavy 50 footer I have comfort in saying that the majority of the cabinetry would have been ripped out by the roots on a C-30 in that situation. It shattered brass hinges and positive locking clasps. The entire galley counter comes to mind in this situation. Imagine that thing landing on you in a roll. Install positive locking hasps on all drawers and cabinets.

Water: The tanks need to be secured in a much more robust fashion that they are. Ask yourself where all that water in that tank would go in a roll over. What would stop that tank from breaking free?

Fuel: See above

Batteries: This is a given and they should always be well secured.

Cockpit: Bigger drainage and perhaps the addition of a bridge deck to reduce volume.

Water heater: Should also have additional straps or tie rods holding it down besides the base plate screws. Those shelves the heaters sit on tend to get damp and moist and the screws could rip out in rough weather.

Drop Boards/sliding hatch: This opening is far to wide for my comfort in an ocean storm.

Bulkheads: The C-30 has screwed in bulkheads that tend to flex, creak and move in rough weather. Most boats built for off shore work have glassed in bulkheads. I delivered a Hunter, in somewhat rough conditions, that had some serious movement of interior furniture and bulkheads. The owner was none to happy about. The Hunter also uses screwed in bulkheads.

Rudder: This is a simple and efficient design for coastal sailing but the rudder stock is hollow and the design incorporates no rudder bearings which in turn increases the loads on all associated steering gear when in heavy weather loads.

Rig: While the stays are generally sized well enough I don't like the chain plate attachments to a "floating" bulkhead and would not feel comfortable with that in severe weather off shore.

Hull/deck joint: While the C-30 is through bolted it is only through bolted about every 14-18", if my memory serves me correctly. Even my 2005 310 used alternating screws and bolts and was not totally through bolted. I would want to though bolt it at every penetration for my own personal comfort level.

Lee Cloths: You will eventually need to get sleep.

Hand Holds: The cabin needs more and better placement.

The C-30 can do what you want but do keep in mind that her motion in a sea is not all that comfortable and she tends to get bounced around due to her displacement and her relatively flat bottom sections combined with a wide beam and short waterline. The C-36 has a much better motion in a sea than the C-30 or C-310. I've owned all three, and sailed them in similar rough weather conditions, so I feel qualified to make these assessments. That being said I still would not choose a C-36 for extended blue water voyaging but it is an awesome boat for coastal cruising just as all the Catalina's are.

Even my 2005 Catalina had some issues with bulkhead movement and the bulkheads were bending and distorting, due to movement, where they met the hull in a few areas. This was causing hard spots on the exterior..

As Roger said the Captain is the MOST important safety consideration. Before you set out do yourself a favor and head out into the bay on those days when it's blowing 30+, and turning up a sea, and get yourself some practice so you'll understand how your boat handles.

Roger Long · Jan 4, 2009

David in Sandusky said:
The capsize screen was developed years ago, after extensive research (including tank tests of different hull designs) prompted by the Fastnet race disaster. Capsize screens below 2.00 tend to be safer in heavy weather, those above less so. Since then, every sailboat designer understands this ratio, and knows that others will evaluate their designs using it.

Having devoted a good part of my life to the capsize question and been in contact with a principle investigator of the Fastnet losses and the capsizes in it while the groundwork for the capsize screen was being laid, I'll have to say that I take the capsize numbers with a huge crystal of salt. It's interesting research for people like me but of limited value otherwise. The "tend" and "er" business is the rub. Even if your number is .2, it doesn't mean much when that one wave isn't going up and down behind the others but just staying up there coming fast... (been there twice and sat on the bottom of a boat once going, "Wow! Now what?")

But if I were planning to buy a boat to cruise offshore in heavy weather I would look elsewhere.

Why cruise offshore in heavy weather? Circumnavigators need to be prepared for it but many get all the way around without ever seeing it. Hiscocks seven times without a major storm. Delivery skippers taking boats from New England south after hurricane season are at high risk. I don't think going from Texas to the Bahamas at a reasonable time of year falls in this category. They could get caught. It can happen any time. But, I don't think it makes sense to get a boat for the conditions you may never encounter and which you have an excellent chance of surviving if realistic and prepared on a route like this.

Note that that like many coastal cruisers, the Catalina would be both safe and reasonably comfortable in heavy weather near the shore where you could make it to a safe port in under 24 hours. To me, the offshore concept means dealing with heavy weather for days, and the capability to survive a capsize.

The time to make it to safe port on most coasts is before the heavy weather. Attempting to enter many ports south of New England after you have been beat up, fatigued, and mistake prone may be more dangerous than remaining at sea. Rocks and sand are harder than water.

Few boats, even "blue water" ones will survive a capsize with the rig intact. Capsize danger increases as the water gets shallower. On the TX to Bahamas route, heavy weather that lasts for days should be reasonably foreseeable.

A final note. Most of the well publicized "rescues" you read about in the paper aren't actually in heavy weather and the boats weren't actually in immediate danger (or at least didn't need to be). They are like the snowbound hikers they pull out of the mountains in running shoes without sleeping bags or tents every year.

Roger Long · Jan 4, 2009

Maine Sail said:
I would tend to disagree with that a lot of the boats in Fastnet were "delicately" built.

In retrospect, I would agree with you. I forgot just how much time has passed since those days and boats get lighter and more delicate each year. Why, the "Cynthia Woods" is now officially "industry standard"

The specifics you cite do make the C 30 sound a bit more delicate than the one next to me at the marina seemed.

All the other stuff I agree with you on. You wouldn't want to get dropped off a wave or roll over in a C 30. A lot of seamanship, weather forecasting, season selection, drogue use, etc. has to do with not getting dropped off waves or a situation where the Capsize Number becomes signficant. Sometimes, you are going to get caught but you ought to be able to get from TX to the Bahamas with a reasonable chance of avoiding it.

tsmwebb · Jan 4, 2009

Roger Long said:
Having devoted a good part of my life to the capsize question and been in contact with a principle investigator of the Fastnet losses and the capsizes in it while the groundwork for the capsize screen was being laid, I'll have to say that I take the capsize numbers with a huge crystal of salt. It's interesting research for people like me but of limited value otherwise.

Assuming the we're talking about the beam/volumetric displacement^.33. The factor aims to get a dimensionless number which designers can use to compare the "capsiziness" of otherwise not easily compared designs. The capsize factor is pretty much useless, in and of itself, for determining the resistance to capsize of any boat. An ocean liner might well have a factor approaching 3 while a folkboat might have half of that but the folkboat is much, much, much more likely to be capsized by any given sea. In a static case the area under the positive side of the righting curve represents the resistance to capsize, but even that misses major factors. Bottom line: seaworthyness isn't about transcendental capsiziness; it's about size, strenth, inertia and such.

--Tom.

Stu Jackson · Jan 4, 2009

Good questions, and like any boat

there are obvious issues to make do.

I saw John, who asked the original question (partly about his C36), and while we were motoring along at about 2 knots together just to say "Hi," I mentioned: "Hey, here's a summary of your options, John: Beef up your boat and become completely knowledgeable about all of its systems, or buy a "beefier" boat and become completely knowledgeable about all of its systems."

Lots of it has to do with where you want to go. He said the South Pacific. I noted that a number of C36s have done just that.

There was an article in Cruising World a few years ago about a C36 that got "beefed up" and did just fine.

Maine Sail's "production boat" suggestions are wonderful in that they are specific to issues that one would face.

Oh, and the weather...these days, unless you're on a 30 day trip, like to the Marquesas from Mexico, weather information is so much better than it was just a few years ago.

And practice, practice, practice.

Franklin · Jan 4, 2009

Scott:

Don't sweat that run. Sure, it's a blue water run (because it takes longer then 5 days to get there) but, except during a hurricane or during winter, conditions aren't bad enough for weather for you to sweat. But to be safe, all you have to do is take a Jordan Series Drogue and you'll be fine. If weather does turn out bad, deploy it and ride it out (assuming you have sea room).

Don't get me wrong in that the trip can't be bad, it can get really rough, but the boat isn't going to sink unless it has maintanence problems before you start. One of the complaint that hasn't been covered so far is that production boats tend to have a lot of room with nothing to hold onto and in rough weather it becomes very hard to stand. So it would be a good idea to run some lines through the cabin and maybe cockpit that can be used as handhelds. I run one from the handheld on port side to compression post and back to galley on starboard side when I go offshore.

Many times you hear it's the captain and not the boat, right? But what does that really mean? Well, good captains don't let the boat capsize. He knows the limit of what the boat can take on the beam and when conditions reach that limit, he changes course. He has two options...head into wind or down wind. Now of course downwind is much better and the wind may be so strong you just can't go into the wind enough, so lets just say there is only one option...down wind.

When going downwind, there are three things to worry about: 1) running into land 2) Broaching 3) pitch pooling.

1) Good captains don't leave a dock with bad weather in the forcast, so that give you 5 days to get away from land. On the other end of the trip, hopefully you don't get close to land except when there is a port you can or are going to. If you suspect bad weather at your arrival, you better be sure you can navigate it in bad conditions, if not, slow the boat down with a drogue. How to suspect? Get weather reports. A good captain doesn't steer blindly.

2 & 3) Broaching and pitch pooling are caused by running down very large breaking waves. Some captains say they can dodge breaking waves at sea. If you can do that, then you are safe. If not, then you need to deploy a drogue to try and prevent broaching and pitch pooling. A drogue will slow the boat down and provide a pull on the stern creating resistance on the boat to spin on it's keel. A good drogue willl prevent it from sliding down a wave and crashing into the trough. Many people including me believe a Jordan Series Drogue is the best (I used to think a sea anchor was the best but not anymore). If you don't have a drogue or sea anchor, then try wraps or a bucket or an anchor or anything to create drag.

A good captain also knows that a confused sea is a very dangerous sea and many times the sea gets confused at the end of a storm, so just because the wind has died down a little doesn't mean you can relax and go to sleep.

novelman17130 · Jan 4, 2009

I bought a new Catalina 30' in 1984 and used it along the southern California coast for 7 years. During this time I sailed in Santa Anna wind conditions several times (gale warnings or more). Coming back from Catalina to Long Beach (about 30 KM) one time we encountered 25/30 foot waves and 40/50 knot winds. We also sailed back from Marina del Rey in a gale with the full roller furled, 150 genoa up and an unreefed full main. In addition we sailed from Long Beach to Santa Barbara Island (60 KM) at night. At no time did we ever have the boat heeled more that 30 degrees or have any green water crossing our deck.I personally would feel comfortable sailing my 30' Catalina in the open ocean, offshore provided I had competent sailing buddies and the boat set up for it.
Duane "novelman"

Ross · Jan 4, 2009

I am a bit surprised that there has been no mention of heaving-to when either the weather pipes up or you want/need to wait for daylight or mild weather to approach a harbor. There is /was a factor often used and seen in the past that referred to the ability of the boat to come back up on her keel. I have seen curves that indicate that some boats rolled past 120 degrees will keep going and be stable when turtled. I have seen other curves that showed a positive righting ability to about 170 degrees. Have these concerns taken a backseat to capsize ratios?

kloudie1 · Jan 4, 2009

Scott, here is an example of that run….. Left Kemah May 10, 2000.. around the tip of Louisiana and to Destin Florida May 13,.. Left Destin May 14 late, to Key West May 18.. Left Key West May 19, arrived Alicetown May 21.. left Alicetown May 23, into Port Lucaya in the Bahamas May 24.. From Corpus, you could shorten it by going direct to Key West, but that is a pretty long pull.. over 960 miles.. .. The coast route is about 1200 miles, not as much further as it would seem and it gives you some break and sightseeing time. We traded crew several times along the way because none of us were retired at that time.. It was a 1983 Tartan 37. No significant storms along the way.

Rick Webb · Jan 4, 2009

Have You Thought About Going the Other Way

Cozumel, Grand Cayman, Jamaica, etc.?