What is the proper response?

[rpwillia]

Was in a race recently and received a complaint and thought I would post it here. Other boat felt I needed to move out of their way as I was the windward boat. My response is I gave them room and sailed my proper course and did not inhibit them. Situation was we had a nice wind of 8 knots from the South-SouthEast. The course was a triangle with the start just off the marina to the South with the two other ends of the triangle being power pole B and D which we had to pass to port. I reached power pole B first and rounded it and the other boat came behind and was leeward of me. I sailed a direct course to power pole D and then turned upwind and ran as far as I could before tacking. To me it was fun as the other boat was the faster boat, but every time they tried to pass me they hit my wind shadow, lost speed and fell back. I did not attempt to do anything but sail the most direct course to the next mark. The other boat, not the captain, started complaining that since they were the windward boat I was supposed to give them room. The attached graphic shows our course.

My interpretation of the rules are below with the actual rules below that.
11. I kept clear and sailed my proper course.
12. The other boat at times was clear astern, especially after hitting my wind shadow.
14. We had no contact.
18.2.1 They did give me room and I made a super smart turn around the mark and immediately beat hard up into the wind. The other boat did lost some ground and eventually tacked behind me (the oncoming shore also likely made them nervous).
19. The other boat did give me room so no problem there.

I went through the RRS and feel the following are relevant.
11. ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

12. ON THE SAME TACK, NOT OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and not overlapped, a boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead.

14. AVOIDING CONTACT
A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one sailing within the room or mark-room to which she is entitled need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room.

17. ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

18. MARK-ROOM
18.1. When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply

1. between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
2. between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack.
3. between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
4. if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies.

Rule 18 no longer applies between boats when mark-room has been given.
18.2. Giving Mark-Room

1. When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
2. If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give her mark-room.
3. When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
   1. she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a new overlap begins;
   2. if she becomes overlapped inside the boat entitled to mark-room, she shall also give that boat room to sail her proper course while they remain overlapped.
4. Rules 18.2(b) and (c) cease to apply if the boat entitled to mark-room passes head to wind or leaves the zone.
5. If there is a reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap at the time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
6. If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap begins, the outside boat has been unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it.

19. ROOM TO PASS AN OBSTRUCTION
19.1. When Rule 19 Applies
Rule 19 applies between boats at an obstruction except

1. when the obstruction is a mark the boats are required to leave on the same side, or
2. when rule 18 applies between boats and the obstruction is another boat overlapped with each of them.

However, at a continuing obstruction, rule 19 always applies and rule 18 does not.

19.2. Giving Room at an Obstruction

1. A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.
2. When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.
3. While boats are passing a continuing obstruction, if a boat that was clear astern and required to keep clear becomes overlapped between the other boat and the obstruction and, at the moment the overlap begins, there is not roomfor her to pass between them,
   1. she is not entitled to room under rule 19.2(b), and
   2. while the boats remain overlapped, she shall keep clear and rules 10 and 11 do not apply.

 

[Jumpstart]

I didn’t look at your course diagram. On a beat, you as the windward boat needs to keep clear. Proper course does not enter into it. On a offwind leg when the leeward boat approaches from clear astern or within 2 boats to leeward the windward must keep clear of a boat steering the leeward boats proper course which may be different than the windward boats proper course. I.e. boat L with an Asail sailing hotter angles than boat W with S sail.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I’m with jumpstart that the essence of the question is whether they could sail their proper course, not necessarily whether you sailed yours. Rule 17 entitles them to sail as high as needed to get around the course as fast as possible in the absence of any other boats. In some cases that could mean pointing above the mark. Some cases where that could happen are if their polars said going higher and then lower were faster than going straight across, or if there were a current or waves suggesting a higher course were favored. Also note that if you’re both pointing directly to the mark you’ll be converging, and they’re still on their proper course, so you still need to keep clear (at least until mark room takes effect). It would be hard for them to argue that going as high as a luff was their proper course; but they definitely have some flexibility to say their proper course was higher than what you might expect, and you need to give them room accordingly.

On a beat, you as the windward boat needs to keep clear. Proper course does not enter into it.

I’m not sure I agree with that part. The Proper Course rule doesn’t exclude upwind legs in its text. If a leeward boat wanted to luff a windward boat while on a beat I think they’d still be limited by whether that luff were leeward’s proper course.

 

[thinwater]

No overlap, no problem. As I understand it, they were clear astern at all times. If they could not roll over you to windward, tough toodles. The helmsman came up sligtly after mark B to make that harder, which is common.

 

[Apex]

you said no contact, thus you kept clear. The leeward boat could have continued to pinch up, forcing you up to keep clear, but that is just slow for everyone. A close overlap as windward boat will also see you slowed (lee bow). That course offers little strategy though, sail 1 tack to the mark, sail 1 tack to the mark, sail 1 tack to the mark.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I really couldn't follow your description. Where did the supposed infraction occur? Was it between Mark B & Mark D? (I'm assuming B was first, then D). Was the infraction at Mark D or after Mark D? It looks like you were on a broad reach (nearly a run?) between the 2 marks. You described them as being leeward and they couldn't get past your wind shadow. That makes sense on the reach. But how could they be in your wind shadow if they were astern as you described? Was this after rounding D when you were beating upwind? But you said their complaint was that you should have given them room because they were windward ??? But you also said that they gave you room. That doesn't make sense. How were they the ones giving you room at Mark D if they were windward? You were rounding from a reach to a beat, no? Were they windward at Mark D after they tried to roll you to leeward before the mark? It sounds like you were clear ahead all along, so why should this be your problem. If they did get to an overlap before reaching the mark, then you did need to provide room, but it sounds like you did or they did, I can't tell. After rounding Mark D, you would be tacking upwind and windward/leeward rules should have been clear. Sounded way more complicated than it actually was, I suppose.

 

[jssailem]

I miss the old days when the Americas Cup had great tacking duals. Heading up and covering was the tactic. matched boats pushed the skills of the tactician/skipper and crews.

Then all of the nuances of the rules were visible to the sailors.

 

[jssailem]

Did the other skipper file a protest?
If so what was his claim?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

This sounds like one of those classic cases that Jackdaw used to describe. If you are on a broad reach and a faster boat is trying to roll you to windward, as Jackdaw once said, never never never let them roll you without forcing them way out of their way to windward. Windward /leeward rules still apply and if you don't force that guy off his course and make him go way out of the way, you will lose all respect and you'll get rolled that way routinely. If everybody learns that you won't get rolled to windward, the faster boats will be forced to go through your wind shadow if they want to get by you. If you let them get a windward overlap in the zone at the mark, then you were too late to force them off the course and you owe them room. You should have done it earlier, before they got to the zone.

 

[Davidasailor26]

This sounds like one of those classic cases that Jackdaw used to describe. If you are on a broad reach and a faster boat is trying to roll you to windward, as Jackdaw once said, never never never let them roll you without forcing them way out of their way to windward. Windward /leeward rules still apply and if you don't force that guy off his course and make him go way out of the way, you will lose all respect and you'll get rolled that way routinely. If everybody learns that you won't get rolled to windward, the faster boats will be forced to go through your wind shadow if they want to get by you. If you let them get a windward overlap in the zone at the mark, then you were too late to force them off the course and you owe them room. You should have done it earlier, before they got to the zone.

If I’m reading the description right this is sort of the opposite - the trailing boat was trying to pass to leeward, but kept on getting my into the OP’s wind shadow and sliding back. Then they’d creep forward and try again. At some point they claimed their proper course was to sail higher than the OP wanted, but the OP was sailing his own proper course to the mark. OP was probably wrong to prevent Leeward from sailing his own proper course, assuming Leeward only wanted the proper course and not to luff up higher.

The other boat, not the captain, started complaining that since they were the windward boat I was supposed to give them room.

I presume you mean “since we were the windward boat”?

 

[BarryL]

Hi,

One comment - proper course means the proper course for the boat trying to pass another boat. So if you are to windward and a leeward come up to you. HE must sail his proper course, not you. BUT, proper course is mostly meaningless, unless you are pretty close to the mark. Proper course does NOT mean you can't sail higher than the mark. You can sail higher than the mark, much higher, if you think there will be wind shift, or current, or some other REASON you have to sail high. Trying to push another boat up and out of your way is NOT a reason, but if you think there will be wind shift ahead and want to get high of mark to be in a good position for the shift, that is perfectly reasonable. Now if you are 100' from the mark, and you started sailing so high that you were going away from the mark, that would NOT be sailing a proper course.

Anyway it sounded like sour grapes from your competition. Ignore him and have fun.

Barry

 

[Stu Jackson]

I reached power pole B first and rounded it and the other boat came behind and was leeward of me. I sailed a direct course to power pole D and then turned upwind and ran as far as I could before tacking. To me it was fun as the other boat was the faster boat, but every time they tried to pass me they hit my wind shadow, lost speed and fell back. I did not attempt to do anything but sail the most direct course to the next mark. The other boat, not the captain, started complaining that since they were the windward boat I was supposed to give them room. The attached graphic shows our course.

Ray,

Let me see if I understand this for starters:
The course was unusual (to most of us) because it was a downwind start, to B, then reaching to D, and only upwind finally from D to the finish line.
Do I get this right?
If so, then if he was behind you from start to B and also from B to D, then unless he overlapped you at some point, his claim is foolish.
From D to the finish you were going upwind, so both of you were tacking, right? Or maybe just being able to sail on one tack, perhaps?

What I didn't understand was this: "...the other boat was the faster boat, but every time they tried to pass me they hit my wind shadow..."

If they were behind you from start to B, how could THEY be in YOUR wind shadow? The wind was behind you.
If they were behind you from B to D on the reaching leg (which looked like a beam to broad reach depending on boat sped vs. wind speed) then how could THEY be in YOUR wind shadow?
If they were behind you on the tacking (or singler tack) final leg, tough noogies on them.

Please help me out if I misunderstood.

If I didn't, they were full of hogwash, simply because they physically couldn't be in a position to do so.

 

[Apex]

.......OP was probably wrong to prevent Leeward from sailing his own proper course, assuming Leeward only wanted the proper course and not to luff up higher.........

Nope, Windward boat needs to keep clear, but in what I read in description the leeward boat couldn't get through. Understandably a frustrating position to be in. At 3boat lengths of mark, if there is an overlap the leeward boat is entitled to room, but not all the room they want, enough to make a rounding. The OP could have simply invited the complainer to "come on up and push me higher" when overlapped, and when not overlapped: Piss Off

 

[rpwillia]

OK, Let me help out as I did not explain everything. I am a 31' boat, the other is a 36' boat and slightly faster boat for boat. I beat then to the mark by about 50 yards and settled on beam reach directly for the next mark about 200 yards away. We were both on a beam reach at that point. I could not go any further up to port as there were big power poles (actually big square concrete structures with power poles on top) to my port. I actually cleared them both with about 25' to my port. The leeward bigger boat did catch me, but every time they tried to pass me they hit my wind shadow and dropped back. The skippers daughter (31f) yelled I needed to maneuver to let them through and I stated I would hold my course and not come up or down. I had no intention of leaving any of my fiberglass and gelcoat on a 50'x50' concrete structure. There was no protest, just some complaining that I did not move out of their way so they could pass. I feel good about my position and the other skipper seems OK with it. I just want to make sure I can understand it and explain it (this is a great article for our YC newsletter). I would also note the following, with the last sentence. When they attempted to pass me to leeward I held my course as they were to my starboard and the big power poles were to my port.

https://www.flindersyc.com.au/resou...ocs/SIMPLIFIED-RACING-RULES-FOR-BEGINNERS.pdf
8. DEFENDING AGAINST OVERTAKING BOATS: If a boat tries to pass you to windward, you are entitled to defend your wind by luffing up but must do so in such a way as to give the windward boat room to keep clear (see also item #4). A luffing boat may not pass beyond head to wind while the other boat is there. If a near-by boat tries to pass you to leeward on a reach or run, you are not allowed to make life even tougher for that boat by sailing below the course to the next mark.

 

[Davidasailor26]

We really need a better diagram to show who was windward and leeward, when there was an overlap and hail, etc.

The unusual course layout and timing are making it hard to say the exact rule interpretations otherwise.

 

[rpwillia]

Ray,

Let me see if I understand this for starters:
The course was unusual (to most of us) because it was a downwind start, to B, then reaching to D, and only upwind finally from D to the finish line.
Do I get this right?
If so, then if he was behind you from start to B and also from B to D, then unless he overlapped you at some point, his claim is foolish.
From D to the finish you were going upwind, so both of you were tacking, right? Or maybe just being able to sail on one tack, perhaps?

What I didn't understand was this: "...the other boat was the faster boat, but every time they tried to pass me they hit my wind shadow..."

If they were behind you from start to B, how could THEY be in YOUR wind shadow? The wind was behind you.
If they were behind you from B to D on the reaching leg (which looked like a beam to broad reach depending on boat sped vs. wind speed) then how could THEY be in YOUR wind shadow?
If they were behind you on the tacking (or singler tack) final leg, tough noogies on them.

Please help me out if I misunderstood.

If I didn't, they were full of hogwash, simply because they physically couldn't be in a position to do so.

Hey Stu, They are a bit faster than me on a beam reach, but upwind I have a bit of an advantage since after we cleared the 3 power pole and headed upwind I actually increased the distance and held it for far longer (they tacked as they were heading a little more directly to the power plant piers than I was ;-) ) You are correct it was a downwind start, but at the beginning we had 4 knots that guickly built to 8-12 knots by the time we got to the power poles. At points B through D we were both on a beam reach and they were a bit faster until they hit my wind shadow.

As always this is a learning curve for folks. The daughter is super sweet (in a perfect world I would have a son her age I could marry her off to) but definitely does not understand all of the nuances of racing. In a race last year they went up to Alexandria (where they are super serious about racing) and got caught out of position away from the start line and complained that boats (in their pre-race sequence) did not motor out of their way.

 

[Davidasailor26]

So to confirm, do we have a situation that looks like thiswith you as the white boat and Leeward as blue?

If so the power poles in red introduce another rule, 19.2(b) -When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

So, Leeward overtaking from astern is entitled to sail as high as she wants and you must give room, with the following caveats:
1) Leeward cannot ask for room to sail above her proper course
2) Leeward must not sail so high that she runs you into the obstruction (power poles).

 

[rpwillia]

Davidasailor26, Correct on both. I was boxed in by both power poles and the other boat. I would not the blue boat (leeward boat) was at times 5-6' off of my beam.

 

[Apex]

@Davidasailor26 GREAT DIAGRAM!
I read this as the other boat simply couldn't push up the OP, they just put themselves in poor position. Stop reading the rules when the appropriate rule meets the situation:
10: Port/Stbd: n/a
11: Same Tack/Overlapped: at times. Windward boat kept clear? YEP.
12: Same Tack/Not Overlapped: at times. Astern keep clear? YEP
so it is DONE THERE....any protest would end there. furthermore for fun, since we might assume the other boat would state they were forced to alter course in accordance to rule 14......
13: While Tacking: n/a
14: No matter right of way, avoid a collision. worth always repeating, but n/a
15: Acquiring right of way: she shal initially give the other boat room to keep clear. YEP
16: Changing course: 16.1 room to keep clear, 16.2 turning down on a beat N/a to both.
17!!!!: if a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within 2-3 of her hull lengths (the 36ft vessel in this case) to leeward of a boat on same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
..so a boat overtaking can't come from behind, then push up the other boat. The leeward boat can bail out of the position, passing astern when tacking. The N/A for rule 13 is while tacking...so should the OP have tacked while overlapped to a windward position, 17 does not apply.

 

[Davidasailor26]

..so a boat overtaking can't come from behind, then push up the other boat.

I was with you until that point, but there’s a subtlety there. The leeward boat can come from behind and push up the other boat, but only as high as leeward’s proper course. That proper course could be higher than windward had been sailing and potentially higher than a straight line to the mark in some cases.

But here leeward has the additional restriction that she can’t run windward into the obstruction, even if her proper course would be that high.