What is "Ocean" worthy?

Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
In a recent post about sailing trailersailers to big destinations, I mentioned the MORC certification of my little trailersailer, Dragonfly in the context of being good to go on long range trips. I got some pushback on the significance of that rating. I don't think the pushback was at all inappropriate. My comments may have been a bit cavalier. I know, big surprise! Anyhow, I thought, rather than get into a back and forth about it on a thread about trailersailer bucket list destinations, it was a good subject to start a new thread on.
So, my response is below and you can checkout the original exchange on my thread "Bucket List" https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/bucket-list.195037/page-3#post-1527157

It for sure does not mean that any boat that gets a certification is 'ocean rated'. Thats a silly and dangerous line of thought.
That's not exactly what I was trying to say. The Midget Ocean Racing Club certified boats for self-righting. As you have pointed out in the past. There are almost no (if any) sailboats that are truly self-righting beyond a certain point of heel.
The purpose of the club and its certification, as much as my research has lead me to believe, is to participate in and promote ocean racing for boats under 30'. I'm not referring to ocean crossing or even an "ocean" rating, but to competitive sailing off-shore, as opposed to the bay. The MORC plate on Dragonfly that documents the design's certification, says, as you point out, nothing about oceans except in the name of the organization. If my statements could mislead someone to believe their MORC certification made their boat fit for ocean crossing, I am truly sorry. The only thing that can make any boat fit for ocean crossing is the sailor. However, there is also a difference between a sailboat that is self-ballasted and one that is crew ballasted. Many small boats are crew-ballasted and some self-ballasted boats don't have their CoG low enough to recover from a knock-down. I wouldn't think any boats in these two groups would qualify for a MORC certification.

I sent an email off to MORC a while back. Their website looks like someone was trying to revive the organization, but no response. I believe MORC is no more.

So what's your take on small boats that are "ocean" ready and is there a size limit?

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
"There are almost no (if any) sailboats that are truly self-righting beyond a certain point of heel."

what? Will, all my keel boats are totally self righting. all keel boats are self righting. that's the whole idea of a keel boat.

strength makes a vessel sea worthy. comfort is huge in my book. some will claim comfort does not count. that's why they are bachelors. :)
 
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Jim26m

.
Apr 3, 2019
579
Macgregor 26M Mobile AL
Was that the lid to Pandora's Box that I just heard open? Great question, which I'm sure will bring a lively discussion. Being a Macgregor 26m owner, I'm keenly aware of having my boat seaworthiness discussed. I did a lot of reading in forums before I bought my boat and, frankly, was amazed when I survived the test sail. Since purchasing, I've come to really appreciate how enjoyable the boat is. I needed the shallow draft, and high speed capabilities. We have a lot of thin water here, and my first mate doesn't want to get caught out in a blow.

One of my daughters and I have been out in a pretty good blow, heavily reefed, and the boat was well behaved. Seas were probably 4-6, fairly close. I did not feel any concern that the boat would let me down.

Would I consider it ocean worthy? On the right day, yes. For anything other than perfect weather no. Rigging is light, rudders/rudder brackets too flimsy for big seas. Daggerboard seems a little light for big seas also.

I think you may have said that the sailor determines how seaworthy the boat is, and I agree; within structural limits. Then, there are those pesky unknowns that pop up when least expected. We all know that there are a lot of seaworthy, ocean capable, vessels resting on the bottom of the ocean.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
If a sailboat goes over to the point that their sail is underwater, it is more likely they will remain upside down. Granted, a keel boat is like a Weeble, but with the shift in cabin contents and a sail that resists righting due to the weight of water on it, I don't think there are many boats that can recover before they sink. I'm willing to be wrong. In fact, I'd like to be.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
not my boats Will. mine will always right. my load is not going to shift. no water will be coming in. hatches are secured, companionway closed. hull integrity is #1 saftey rule for all sailors.
 
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DArcy

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Feb 11, 2017
1,691
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
The World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations have a good section on what some learned people think makes a boat suitable for offshore sailing. You can download the regulations here http://www.sailing.org/documents/offshorespecialregs/index.php
Section 3 talks about Structural Features, Stability, Fixed Equipment.
For category Mo0, Mo1, or Mo2 ISO 12217-2 category A is referenced for monohull stability or demonstrate a STIX (stability index) value of not less than 32 and AVS (angle of vanishing stability) of not less than 130 - .002 x Mass but always >= 100°. AVS:

Even Jon's Alden doesn't have an AVS of 180° so technically won't always right although the chances are you would never get past the AVS in conditions without enough waves to push it back to a positive righting moment.
In terms of hull construction, or scantlings, the offshore rules point to ISO 12215 category A for categories Mo0,1,2. This includes all kinds of good information on hull-deck joints, longitudinal stiffeners, load bearing elements etc. Construction is a much bigger question than stability with much more complicated answers.
There's a lot more to it including sail configurations, comfort, speed etc. For some simple comparisons you can look at capsize ration and motion comfort, readily available for a lot of production boats on the Sail Calculator http://tomdove.com/sailcalc/sailcalc.html
Compare a Hunter 23.5 water ballast to a Westsail 43 and you can see the the Hunter with a capsize ratio of 2.31 compared to 1.65 for the Westsail and motion comfort of 12.33 vs. 43.79. These are extreme differences and very basic calculations that don't tell the whole story but give some idea of what to expect for each of these boats.
 
May 25, 2012
4,333
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
The World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations have a good section on what some learned people think makes a boat suitable for offshore sailing. You can download the regulations here http://www.sailing.org/documents/offshorespecialregs/index.php
Section 3 talks about Structural Features, Stability, Fixed Equipment.
For category Mo0, Mo1, or Mo2 ISO 12217-2 category A is referenced for monohull stability or demonstrate a STIX (stability index) value of not less than 32 and AVS (angle of vanishing stability) of not less than 130 - .002 x Mass but always >= 100°. AVS:

Even Jon's Alden doesn't have an AVS of 180° so technically won't always right although the chances are you would never get past the AVS in conditions without enough waves to push it back to a positive righting moment.
In terms of hull construction, or scantlings, the offshore rules point to ISO 12215 category A for categories Mo0,1,2. This includes all kinds of good information on hull-deck joints, longitudinal stiffeners, load bearing elements etc. Construction is a much bigger question than stability with much more complicated answers.
There's a lot more to it including sail configurations, comfort, speed etc. For some simple comparisons you can look at capsize ration and motion comfort, readily available for a lot of production boats on the Sail Calculator http://tomdove.com/sailcalc/sailcalc.html
Compare a Hunter 23.5 water ballast to a Westsail 43 and you can see the the Hunter with a capsize ratio of 2.31 compared to 1.65 for the Westsail and motion comfort of 12.33 vs. 43.79. These are extreme differences and very basic calculations that don't tell the whole story but give some idea of what to expect for each of these boats.
i can live with that :)
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Construction is a much bigger question than stability with much more complicated answers
:thumbup: for sure.
There is also a difference in types of stability. Ballast vs form. For example, take the image posted above. The hull form is sort of like a log cut in half down its length. For a shape like that, with no additional ballast, upside-down would be its natural stable position. A plank floats on the face, never on the edge and if you round one face, it will always turn over until the flat face is down. Boats are designed just the opposite. More recent designs with flatter bottoms and wider beams are better. But, stick a keel on that form and the whole thing can change. Take that same flat board and put a keel on it. If the keel is on a flat face, it will be very stable, but still stable upside down, as well. Put the keel on the edge, it will only ever settle keel down. A skinny boat rolls less because there is less outboard flotation to be lifted by a wave. It will stand upright no matter how the water is tilting, a Weeble. A wide boat, on the other hand, tilts with the water. A wave rolls by and picks up first one side, then the other. Form stability tends to roll where ballast stability stays upright.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
If a sailboat goes over to the point that their sail is underwater, it is more likely they will remain upside down. -Will (Dragonfly)
Well, I'm certainly going to disagree with this statement after being capsized 3 times in a hurricane.
Though I had no sail up for 2 of the three, the boat came back up quickly enough that she did not completely fill with water, though we did rip off the main companionway hatch on the first capsize, which we fixed by nailing the floorboards over the hole.
Every keelboat should self right after a capsize or a pitchpole if it doesn't take in enough water to sink! On the other hand, most multihulls will not come back up.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
In a recent post about sailing trailersailers to big destinations, I mentioned the MORC certification of my little trailersailer, Dragonfly in the context of being good to go on long range trips. I got some pushback on the significance of that rating. I don't think the pushback was at all inappropriate. My comments may have been a bit cavalier. I know, big surprise! Anyhow, I thought, rather than get into a back and forth about it on a thread about trailersailer bucket list destinations, it was a good subject to start a new thread on.
So, my response is below and you can checkout the original exchange on my thread "Bucket List" https://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?threads/bucket-list.195037/page-3#post-1527157


That's not exactly what I was trying to say. The Midget Ocean Racing Club certified boats for self-righting. As you have pointed out in the past. There are almost no (if any) sailboats that are truly self-righting beyond a certain point of heel.
The purpose of the club and its certification, as much as my research has lead me to believe, is to participate in and promote ocean racing for boats under 30'. I'm not referring to ocean crossing or even an "ocean" rating, but to competitive sailing off-shore, as opposed to the bay. The MORC plate on Dragonfly that documents the design's certification, says, as you point out, nothing about oceans except in the name of the organization. If my statements could mislead someone to believe their MORC certification made their boat fit for ocean crossing, I am truly sorry. The only thing that can make any boat fit for ocean crossing is the sailor. However, there is also a difference between a sailboat that is self-ballasted and one that is crew ballasted. Many small boats are crew-ballasted and some self-ballasted boats don't have their CoG low enough to recover from a knock-down. I wouldn't think any boats in these two groups would qualify for a MORC certification.

I sent an email off to MORC a while back. Their website looks like someone was trying to revive the organization, but no response. I believe MORC is no more.

So what's your take on small boats that are "ocean" ready and is there a size limit?

-Will (Dragonfly)
wow, where to start?

First, not sure where you got caught up on this self-righting thing. As a matter of practicality, ALL keelboats are described as 'self-righting'. If you have a weighted keel, hello, you're self-righting. Try and find one that is not.

Second, you misunderstood my comments re a full capsize. What I said was simply outlining how the righting-arm (GZ) curve on boats work. Repeating, at a certain angle of heel (90-130) the boat will tend to want to capsize as the arm is 'inverted'. Once upside down in the water, the boat's form stability will want it to stay that way, unless rocked by a (much smaller) wave. In storms this almost always happens. Some boats, like Class 40s, have so much form stability that they don't want to turn over, and they have by class rule a way out via the transom.

Here is a typical GZ curve. You can see where the example boat wants to go over( 130) and that means will need to heel to 50 degrees while inverted to go back.

GZ curve.jpeg

This is true for all sailboats, but they still describe them as self-righting. The only TRUE self-righting boats are usually CG rescue boats with superstructures designed to push the boat back past its AVS in flat water.

My comments re MORC were based on your reference that your boat 'was MORC certified' when someone wondered if the M18 was safe for open water use. I don't have an opinion on that, but I do think that its best to determine a boat's capability on the minimums of whats actually safe based on design and construction, vs the maximums proposed by some 'certification'.

Regarding the question of 'ocean worthiness', from my eyes 95% of the open-water SARs are caused not by a failure of the boats initial design, but a lack of seamanship or basic maintenance and/or outfitting.
 
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Aug 22, 2011
1,113
MacGregor Venture V224 Cheeseland
To confuse the issue there are countless stories of "non" sea worthy boats crossing big waters in big storms and making it alright and other stories about boats that are "the best" that don't make their destinations.......
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
So what's your take on small boats that are "ocean" ready and is there a size limit?
Last night I started reading "Once is Enough" at the suggestion of Michael Davis (Thanks Michael). In the forward, there is a reference to small boats being inherently seaworthy. The analogy is to a seagull bobbing blithely over huge waves. The author of the forward points out that seagulls occasionally open their wings and lift themselves out of potentially bad situations (skilled sailors staying afloat). In reading Sven Yrvind's Website, you will find his comments about how, in the same form as a bigger boat, a small boat suffers proportionately smaller forces due to shorter larger arms of mast and keel, less sail area, etc..
There is a challenge that has yet to be taken up called the "Around in Ten" which is a challenge to circumnavigate the globe in a boat of 10' or less. I'm sure it's possible, but why would anyone want to spend more than a dime day on the bay in a ten foot boat. It is a challenge that I think about for the mental gymnastics, though.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Jim26m

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Apr 3, 2019
579
Macgregor 26M Mobile AL
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Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I think Sven has set that project aside [Edit: The Around in Ten project] somewhere around 2014. He cut his AiT build up. But there is some good information about small boat ocean sailing on his site.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Last night I started reading "Once is Enough" at the suggestion of Michael Davis (Thanks Michael). In the forward, there is a reference to small boats being inherently seaworthy. The analogy is to a seagull bobbing blithely over huge waves.
There is a fair amount of truth in that. The big downside is the short LOA makes them much more susceptible to full capsize in a breaking wave. In his 1979 Atlantic crossing in his 10 foot Yankee Girl, rolling in a breaking wave was one of Gerry Spiess's biggest fears.

marlinbree-330-exp-Yankeegirlarrfa.jpg


Not fully around, but he did cross both the Atlantic AND Pacific in that boat.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,733
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
I think I would take a different approach to that problem. A faster planing hull and shorter hops. I think one can plot a course that is never more than 200 nm from land. It would be a longer overall route but better weather windows and consequently shorter exposure to giant squid territory. Provisioning would also be lighter.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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