What is a skipper?

petersea · Aug 18, 2011

My thoughts are this...the helmsmen (woman in this case)is the helmsmen. The "skipper" or Captain is the person in charge. Take for example any navy vessel the person at the helm is not the skipper but the helmsmen, the skipper has other responsibilities that may or may not include handling the wheel but handling the wheel does not automatically make you the skipper or in charge. If the entry form states that the person in question is the skipper then your rule of would eliminate that boat however if a club member is named as skipper then the boat races. If the boat has a "skipper by committee" as you suggest and the majority of the committee are members the boat races. Why were the rules changed for this race is the question ?? The rules committee apparently left the loop hole open so go back to them for an "interpretation" It sounds like someone or some people are trying to eliminate this boat and this person from the race and "deeded" new rules. Reminds me of the the "controversy" over Obama's birth certificate.......SOUR GRAPES ! !

p.s. Please be sure to let us know the outcome of the situation

Joe · Aug 18, 2011

What is the spirit of the rule? Are you trying to keep "ringers" and "rockstars" out of the competition? In that case, I wouldn't worry about trying to define "skipper" I would just rule that only club members can steer the boat. Of course, the rockstar can call tactics without steering. So what then? sorry... I don't envy your position.

For what it's worth, in dinghy sailing the team is often referred to as "skipper and crew"

But I don't think you have to drive to be skipper. I'm of the opinion that the skipper is the captain of the vessel and responsible for everthing. How many boats have you been on where the captain drives all the time.... not many, I'll venture.

So I'd just be clear in what you're trying legislate and define the terms within the rule.

i.e. "... in this body of racing rules... the skipper is defined as the helmsman at the start of the race..." or " the skipper is the person in charge of the vessel, either by ownership or contract with the owner, and must be a member of the racing crew...."

Rick486 · Aug 18, 2011

higgs said:

We are facing an interesting controversy at Olcott Yacht Club. We have a woman's series where no men are allowed on board. Rules state that if the boat is owned by a club member it can race. The helmsperson of Soundwave is not a member of the club, the rest of the crew are memebers , but since the boat is owned by a member it is eligible for the series.

We have a special race for the women coming up with its own deed. It states the skipper of any boat in the race must be a club member. Is the helmsman automatically the skipper? How do we determine who is actually the skipper if the helmsman is not so designated?

Click to expand

higgs said:
I occasionally race my boat and it is not uncommon for me to put someone else on the helm when I think I can help the cause better in another capacity. I also don't always call tactics, yet it is my boat and I am the skipper so I have final say.

I would say the boat in question here probably has a skipper by committee. Decisions are not made by one person alone and a consensus is reached.

As fleet captain, this decision will be mine. Complicating this issue is the fact that this particular race is specially deeded. The rest of our women's series clearly allows this boat to race w/o a member as skipper according to rules since the boat is owned by a member. Further complicating things is that this boat is the favorite to win and my wife is a crew member.

I always appreciate thoughts from this forum.

I'm not clear why there is a controversy. If the owner is aboard then he/she is automatically the "skipper", or person in charge who makes final decisions. If he/she is not on the helm, then the helmsman is just that. If the owner (or owner's wife let's say) is not aboard and the non-member is indeed the skipper and helmsperson, then you have an issue and my take would be the non-member "skippered" boat is clearly ineligible. The fact that the crew are members is irrelevant based on the situation you describe. I think that is a fair judgment for you to make.

Bill Roosa · Aug 18, 2011

Nautical law I believe has the boat owner designates the skipper. The owner may own several ships BTW. The skipper is then in charge and can delegate (in god like fashion) who does what.
On a side note why do you care? What is the harm in letting other boats participate? What is the harm in letting non-members participate? Heck they might even like the event and become members, help fill the coffers or perform club functions.

Mike Turner · Aug 18, 2011

The Rules of Racing state that:

46 PERSON IN CHARGE

A boat shall have on board a person in charge designated by the

member or organization that entered the boat.

From Merriman-Webster's Dictionary:

2skipper

noun

1
: the master of a ship; especially : the master of a fishing, small trading, or pleasure boat

2

So, there needs to be someone on board designated as being in charge, and the skipper need not be the helmsperson. Have a club member on board designated as "skipper" and they should be all set.

gpd955 · Aug 18, 2011

Makes perfect sense. I mean, I'm sure Gilligan got to drive the Minnow once in a while. Couldn't imagine calling him Skipper.

Sailm8 · Aug 18, 2011

It is situations like this that take the fun out of racing and why I no longer bother.

31seahorse · Aug 18, 2011

Waxing Poetic:

I'm never allowed to steer the boat.
I can't even ring the bell,
But if the damn thing hits the rocks,
I'm the one who catches hell!

Old Skool Neil · Aug 18, 2011

Bismark Dinius happens to be at the helm of a sailboat (not his) on a windless night, a power boat plows into him at speed killing Lynn Thornton sitting in the cockpit of the sailboat.

Dinius is charged with manslaughter and was the only person charged in the incident.

There are many layers to this story but if you ask Dinius what determines a skipper I bet he'll have an answer not found in your racing rules.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?80114-Preliminary-hearing-for-Bismark-Dinius

But more to your question, does this race's "special deeding" include "special rules" as well? I didn't read anything in your original post implying it does so since your club sponsors the race and in the absence of a different set of rules, I'd say the club's eligibility provisions already established prevail.

Ron20324 · Aug 18, 2011

gpd955 said:
... I mean, I'm sure Gilligan got to drive the Minnow once in a while. Couldn't imagine calling him Skipper.

Cripes! I cringe at the thought of Gilligan calling "The Skipper", skipper.

Winkfish · Aug 18, 2011

Higgs, you've got two separate but applicable rules here. For the series, the boat must be owned by a member. This one is, so it can race in the series.

The second rule applies to this particular race. Separate from the ownership rule for the series, the skipper of the boat in this one race must also be a member. If your rules define who the "skipper" of a boat is, follow that. If not, I'd suggest that the owner of the boat (or his agent) needs to designate a skipper for this race, and that skipper must be a member of your club. Obviously the skipper needs to be on board for the race.

Freedom77 · Aug 18, 2011

Having been Race Committee Chairman of two Yacht Clubs, I sense your concerns. Sounds like you have some petty members who have nothing better to do than nitpick. Never saw Dennis Connor at the helm. Boat was owned by a 12 meter Syndicate. We used to have an "Iron Woman" race every year at our meet in Mission Bay. Lot's of fun. No problems. If you have to worry about titles, rules and sea lawyers then the fun is gone. When it stops being fun, then it's time to stop. Fair Winds and Full Sails...

tkanzler · Aug 18, 2011

Freedom77 said:
Never saw Dennis Connor at the helm.

That's the very first thing that came to my mind. Also never saw a sub commander, surface vessel captain, or (hardly ever) me on my own boat at the wheel, as I'm needed more on the sheets and otherwise climbing around the decks, at least when I had a bigger boat. I consider myself the skipper, as in the end, it's all up to me.

And that's one good reason (of several) I don't race, other than a few stints as rail meat on friends' boats.

There's always one (who takes the fun out of things), isn't there?

Edit: For that matter, Sulu wasn't the skipper of Enterprise - Kirk was. Sulu was the helmsman. And Captain Jack Aubrey may have touched the wheel a couple of times in Master and Commander, but he was the skipper, not the the helmsman (there probably were two of them simultaneously when things got tough, in fact). And so on, and so on . . .

Rick D · Aug 18, 2011

Pile On

Skipper does not necessarily mean the helmsman (helmsperson).

I think you have plenty of opinions and good reason to make the call. Have fun!

Dan Johnson · Aug 18, 2011

Club Rules...

at my Club state that the boat entered in one of our spring/fall series races must be "owned" by a Club "Member". At least one member of the crew must be a club member to qualify for the race. I drive for a fellow Club member and our crew has raced the boat to maintain its points standing when the owner was not able to be there. When he's there he is the "Skipper" (Captain in Charge). Otherwise, we designate one of us as crew as the "Skipper" when he's away.

We also stage a "Lady's Race" where the requirement is that the helmsman is the "Lady" (or one of the ladies) aboard. Again, at least one member of the crew must be a club member to qualify for the race.

Being "Skipper" has only come into play where there has been an issue resulting in a formal protest being filed with the Race Committee. Then, the boats involved must be represented by their designated "Skipper".

Joe · Aug 18, 2011

Freedom77 said:
Never saw Dennis Connor at the helm.

You obviously didn't watch many Americas Cup races... he was ALWAYS at the helm in the early days.

Tori Taylor · Aug 18, 2011

What is a skipper?
Well who is my little buddy?

JRacer · Aug 18, 2011

Recuse yourself -- wife on the boat -- conflict of interest -- run away!

Don12364 · Aug 18, 2011

Another Aspect

Who goes up and shakes the Commodore's hand and collects the magnificent silver trophy on prize-giving night?
Who gets to keep the trophy in their display cabinet at home?

i.e. Who is regarded as having won it?
That is the 'skipper' for the purposes of this one.

Perhaps the deed is flawed as the writer probably meant the helmsman/woman must be a member rather than the loose term of skipper. After 30 years as Chairman of a sailing committee - and I have donated trophies and written deeds, I believe that the original intention of the donor was to prevent boats importing a rockstar from outside the club to come in and clean up the prize(s).
If so then I maintain that such a person could be on board but not helming.

As Class captain you could submit a written paper to your rules Committee setting out all sides of the question and ask for an interpretation?