What about Baltic boats?

[rufus1138]

As I write this, I am clearly out of my depth, so I will just pose some questions.
1. From my reading, it appears that relatively few blue water sailors or boats are actually lost at sea due to catastrophic failure of the boat. That is very distinct from the much greater number that may have to limp to a foreign shore where very expensive parts are ordered and laid in while the crew waits for them. My guess is that engine issues and standing rigging constitute the most frequent offshore issues, and hull failure or delaminations very rare?

2. If the above is true, it seems like it would be possible to make a coastal cruiser into a blue water boat at considerable expense doing many of the things suggested by Berman in his Outfitting the Offshore Cruising Sailboat. I guess this raises the question whether it is better [cost effective and/or quality] to buy a boat that came from the factory with most of these improvements, or to have them added to ones own specifications.

3. Some part of this debate focused on Jackdaw's observation that the better the boat and skipper, the less one has to rely on luck. As a novice, I look at luck as how forgiving my boat will be when my inexperience and stupidity puts me in a tight situation. Anyone who spends a great deal of time offshore is destined to make some mistakes, or fall victim to the mistakes of others. I suspect that's where the build of most boats will have their chance to minimize the impact of the error of our ways.

1. you are correct, barring the extremes we hear about (remember news is a negative drawn medium, the bad things show up while the success stories wither and die before making it far) delam is largely unlikely in a good quality/bang for your buck model of boat (im leaving size out of it, seriously go look at a pacific seacraft flicka 19, its badass) proper maintenance with the motor and getting familiar with the basics of repairing/servicing it will serve you excellently. having a spaceship yacht that is complicated and you dont know how to fix will hamper you no matter how much you spent on the boat. if buying a used bargain cruiser (like me 1978 h33) selecting a boat with a well kept mast and understanding that the standing rigging needs to be replaced from the get-go then doing it a little overboard for strength purposes will serve you well along with installing rig management equipment, like backstay adjusters, running backstays or checkstays for fractional rigged boats, basically any equipment it takes to limit/stop any harmonic pumping.

2. boats from the factory will be woefully inept at fitting into that books guidelines, thats what im saying about outfitting, buy something slightly spartan that has a good strong hull that has proven itself for comfort and robust build (stay away from new boats where manufacturers have started to lighten the hulls for performance by thinning them and claiming technological prowess, there is a benifit to my era of boat that the manufacturers went with the idea that they knew they had no idea how much fiberglass was necessary for strength so they used a lot, you get thick hulls and very low stress cycling, i think it was sailing magazine that applied a modern cycle life calculation to a pearson 10 meter that was lightly constructed for its day and arrived at a cycle life of 96,000 years or something.) then fit it out the way you need it, add tankage, modify storage solutions, install systems like solar power and safety backups.

3. mistakes will be made and one of the first things i was taught, and it has proven true time and time again is that boats like the westsail 32 are tough and slow, prepare to be in trouble and hope she holds, probably will, better to learn to plan trips and utilize a lighter boat that is still tough yet performs more briskly even if it has to be reefed early and get out of the weathers path, to quote john paul jones "i wish to have no connection to a ship which does not sail fast; for i intend to go into harms way." we are constantly in harms way once we leave the dock.

 

[FastOlson]

It did not take too many replies for someone to diss the Westsail 32.
I have met Dave King several times and talked to him about his Pacific Cup victory in the Hawaii race.
His boat is well equipped and Well Prepared.... with faired underwater surfaces. He has Excellent sails and is an owner with decades of single-handing experience on that same boat.

While many owners of that and similar full keel boats will brag(!) about how they never "race" and care not about sailing efficiency, that does not mean that the boats themselves are intrinsically slow.
They have their optimal performance "envelope" just like my boat... and yours...
and can indeed be deceptively fast.

Humorous aside: In the real world an average duffer like myself has to work extra hard to keep up with my boat's perceived reputation because "everybody knows" that it's a fast design.

I have done some sailing on another Crealock design, a Willard 9 Ton, and it's quite a treat to work it up to speed in light air -- once we get it going it actually does coast thru a light spot, until the next puff. It will never go to weather like a fin keeler, but the motion at sea is often better than the "modern" designs... I have probably done a thousand miles + coastal passages in that boat.

Regards,
Loren

 

[centerline]

As I write this, I am clearly out of my depth, so I will just pose some questions.
1. From my reading, it appears that relatively few blue water sailors or boats are actually lost at sea due to catastrophic failure of the boat. That is very distinct from the much greater number that may have to limp to a foreign shore where very expensive parts are ordered and laid in while the crew waits for them. My guess is that engine issues and standing rigging constitute the most frequent offshore issues, and hull failure or delaminations very rare?

2. If the above is true, it seems like it would be possible to make a coastal cruiser into a blue water boat at considerable expense doing many of the things suggested by Berman in his Outfitting the Offshore Cruising Sailboat. I guess this raises the question whether it is better [cost effective and/or quality] to buy a boat that came from the factory with most of these improvements, or to have them added to ones own specifications.

3. Some part of this debate focused on Jackdaw's observation that the better the boat and skipper, the less one has to rely on luck. As a novice, I look at luck as how forgiving my boat will be when my inexperience and stupidity puts me in a tight situation. Anyone who spends a great deal of time offshore is destined to make some mistakes, or fall victim to the mistakes of others. I suspect that's where the build of most boats will have their chance to minimize the impact of the error of our ways.

strengthening any boat can be done.... how close it is to what you want to begin with will determine the cost of the project.
as wulfibugs said only in different words, if you have a good coastal boat that is set up with everything you want and is perfect in every way, but lacks strength in a few areas, you can almost guarantee it will take less time and be easier on the pocket book to strengthen what you have, rather than sell it and buy something else... and start all over getting it set up the way you want it. but if you are tired of what you have, then its not even a question...

as for luck, this is the way I see it.... only a fool relies on it. a person with foresight will not expect to see help arrive when hes in a tight spot but will plan for the worst, and be prepared for whatever could happen.... but when the worst comes and its more than he imagined it could ever be, then he can only hope he has some luck left... relying on luck to begin with is only using it up before the worst happens... then you are left without.

 

[robertsapp]

1. Phil Herring once told me he used to own an H42 Passage, and he knew several owners who took their boats from the west coast to New Zealand and back on a regular basis. I'd call that a blue water adventure.

2. If you decide to buy the Baltic, drop me a line, the H42 Passage is on my short list of boats I'd like to upgrade to.

 

[KD3PC]

Although my P42 was brought on her own bottom from Washington state to FL and then to VA..and I loved the boat, I would not call her a blue water boat. We watched the weather and hove to, to miss things we did not want to beat through. The old girl creaked and groaned, and still does but she did make it just fine.

For me, I would love to upgrade to a well found Baltic 38, just to see what is what.

 

[bananabender56]

So would you consider a trip from Atlantic side of Florida to the east coast of Australia blue water?
We did it on a 1991 legend 43, which is the same hull as the P42.
We didn't break anything and had a best days run of 196 miles OTG. So we had safety and some speed - apart from comfort what more do you want?