Water Pump Noise

Maine Sail · Feb 26, 2009

Well

Chuckbear said:
I know of no one else that constantly turns the pump on and off. If you need to do this then you need to do some serious maintenance instead of worrying about the pump. If a fitting fails it is not the pumps fault.

Chuck please lets not misconstrue what I am saying. All I am doing is presenting situations and the data to show that failures can happen & fill your boat with water. This does & can happen even with well maintained systems. Yes, if a fitting fails it is NOT the fault of the pump. However if the pump is on and the fitting failure is on the pressure side, the pump will do what it does... pump. I suppose the same mentality could be taken with closing seacocks? "If the hose, or hose clamp fails, it is not the fault of the seacock." The bottom line is.... what is the end result?

I don't agree that this is always a matter of doing some "serious maintenance" or drilling this subject down to the simplicity of maintenance and maintenance only. In general maintenance is a BIG reason for failures but even on brand new boats where all the owner pre-delivery protocols were followed you can still have issues.

Let's examine my own situation.

#1 This was a BRAND NEW vessel in 2005 in which I had already double checked each and every single hose clamp. I checked, and had tightened, many clamps from the factory on the engine, seacock system and domestic water INCLUDING the one that let go.

#2 Catalina, as do many builders, used nylon reinforced PVC hose. This hose has a MAX working temperature of 150 degrees F! This is a dirty little secret that many builders and boat owners have no clue can lead to a bad situation.

#3 The thermostat operating temperature on the Universal diesel engine is significantly higher than 150 degrees F! This, in and of itself, is a gross mismatch in application and is NOT a matter that should be "serious maintenance" by anyone purchasing a brand new vessel. The cold supply and the hot return for the domestic side of the water heater was 150F hose. The engine ran at about 170 degrees. On a long motor you can literally see the temperature in the tank exceed what this hose is rated for! I personally measured 165 degree tap water on this particular boat after a 4 hour run with my infrared thermometer. 150 degree rated hose and 165 degree water running through it...

Catalina is NOT the only builder to use this 150 degree rated hose on an unregulated engine heated water heater..

#4 Catalina used smooth non-barbed hose fittings on the hot water heater. This fitting had NO barbs and nothing to grip the hose. Again, I tightened or checked all my hose clamps before sea trial and it was next impossible to tell by looking through this hose that non-barbed fittings were used. It should not be the job of a new boat owner to remove and check each and every fitting before launch. This leak was the fault of the builder not my lack of maintenance.

Nylon reinforced. FDA compound PVC for pressurized drinking water systems, ect.
No taste or odor. #164 "Cold Water". Max
W.P. depending on I.D size @ 70°F (21° C)
#162 = 175 PSI (1.21Mpa)
#164 = 150 PSI (1.03Mpa).
Operating temperatures +20° to +150° F
(-7° to 66° C).
NOT RECOMMENDED FOR BELOW WATERLINE THRU-HULL CONNECTIONS.

There are many plumbing items on boats that I have seen fail. Vented loops, valves, hose clamps, pumps and even water heaters. Vented loops are ones that are tough to notice until it's to late this is why I remove the little rubber joker vlaves and clean the yearly but whith a head below the static waterline I still don't trust them and close my head intake even when on board. Overkill with yearly siphon break cleanings? Probably, but I have had my head overflowing into my boat before due to a contaminated siphon break..

I am NOT suggesting everyone shut off their pumps, or do as I do. I'm only relaying information & data to help base a decision on. I, like you, left my pump on for years. After my incident and Tim R's, I no longer do.

As for the OP it's either a bad pump or a leak in the supply side piping.

No barbs from the factory & 150F hose:

cbsailor · Feb 26, 2009

I have to agree with Peggy on this one having experienced the same symptoms and problem. I spent lots of time checking every connection, faucet and line on the boat only to find no leaks. Even without Peggy's help, I deduced it was probably the pump diaphram. The problem with older boats is they usually have older pumps. I contacted Shur-Flo only to be told my pump was 15 years obsolete and no parts had been available for years and it was time for a new pump. They kindly gave me the model number of the equivalent pump currently in production. I purchased and installed a new pump and problem was cured. Hope this pump lasts 20 years too.

Also agree that, "It makes no more sense to turn the water pump on and off every time you need water or overnight", unless of course it's to slience and ignore the noise that's telling you there is a real problem whiich willl only get worse and then fail catastrophically!

Benny · Feb 26, 2009

I respect everyone's opinion and right to do what works for them. I do resent being told what I should or should not do when based on weak arguments. I do keep my water pump on from the moment I step on the boat to the moment I step off. Having plumbing and pressure water is a modern convenience that I have paid for in our boat and I intend to use it as it was designed. While I'm aboard I can hear wether the pump is ciycling or not which would warn me of a leak and I also check and maintain the system on a regular basis. The only sure way to prevent disaster would be to maintain the water tank empty at all times as irrespective of what we may do with the pump power switch a tank can fail and spill water under the sole. I'm willing to take that risk and others for the convenience the system affords, after all the worst that can happen would be just a mere inconvenience. I know first hand what it is like to dump the tank inside a boat as I have done it twice. The lesson I learned was to fix the leaks and do proper maintenance as sooner or latter you will forget to shut off the switch or someone else may turn it on after you shut it off. If I spent 5 minutes each time getting water out of an undersole compartment was a lot; the bilge pump took care of the rest. I have an inboard charger and a genset so the draw on bateries is not an issue and we carry our drinking water in bottles. We all have our quirks and somtimes do things for no reason other that it makes us feel good and that is fine.

Rick D · Feb 26, 2009

Maine, You Are So Good...

...and, WAY over the top on this one. OCD maybe?

Peggy nailed it. I always look for heater hose leaks or water heater failure when I get these cycle things going on. And, in my boat, I have three times had the hot feed line to the exterior shower head come loose causing cycling, and a wet false bilge.

Don S/V ILLusion · Feb 26, 2009

Rick D said:
...and, WAY over the top on this one. OCD maybe?

Peggy nailed it. I always look for heater hose leaks or water heater failure when I get these cycle things going on. And, in my boat, I have three times had the hot feed line to the exterior shower head come loose causing cycling, and a wet false bilge.

Really interesting you said that Rick. The same thing has happened to me same location, twice. Seems like a trend. As we were hooked up to shore water one of the times, it could have been a disaster but I was onboard fortunately at the time

Rick D · Feb 26, 2009

Don, I'll Bet It's A Common Problem

... on our 40.5's. Of course, I probably just made Maine's point, but I still think he's OTT and OCD

Steve Dion · Feb 26, 2009

Get a VSD pump and your problems go away. These pumps do not need or use an expansion tank. You can get one from Camping World for about $160 and your problems will be behind you and you can sleep every night.

Ross · Feb 26, 2009

I can perfectly well understand having pressure water on a boat and the convenience that it brings. When the system fails is there a manual backup system that allows you to continue to draw water from the tanks? I wanted my boat to be able to support me in the event of a complete electrical failure.

Stu Jackson · Feb 26, 2009

It seems that those who recommend

leaving it on all the time are directly proportional to the smaller size of boat.

Here's one of MY experiences, it does happen: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3769.0.html

Larger boats have hoses you just can't always see or access. Losing water is also proportional to the number of separate tanks on board. Too many people think if they leave BOTH or ALL tank valves OPEN they'll always have water. NOT! We always have one tank in reserve, just like the batteries.

We shut it off at night. it's usually on during the day. Always off when we leave the boat, and the 1-2-B switch is also off always when we're not there. if I want cold beer, I bring some from 7-11.

Maine Sail · Feb 27, 2009

Don S/V ILLusion said:
Really interesting you said that Rick. The same thing has happened to me same location, twice. Seems like a trend. As we were hooked up to shore water one of the times, it could have been a disaster but I was onboard fortunately at the time

This may not be a coincidence. If that is the highest point in the system hot water, REALLY hot water, may be gravity feeding from the water heater and softening the hose enough for it to lose its grip on the fitting. If there is room on that barb you might try to double clamp it? Just a thought..

Rick D · Feb 27, 2009

Maine, you are correct that it is the highest hot water fitting. However, it's a Quest fitting. Unlike the other connections which are quest to brass, this is Quest to plastic which I think is part of the issue just as you explained it. BTW, where can you buy Quest fittings now???

Ross · Feb 27, 2009

Rick D said:
. BTW, where can you buy Quest fittings now???

I don't believe they are available any longer. I haven't seen them for several years now. There are some newer designs to use with cpvc pipe but nothing like the Quest fittings.

Maine Sail · Feb 27, 2009

Polybutylene

Rick D said:
Maine, you are correct that it is the highest hot water fitting. However, it's a Quest fitting. Unlike the other connections which are quest to brass, this is Quest to plastic which I think is part of the issue just as you explained it. BTW, where can you buy Quest fittings now???

Some RV places still have them. Be aware that Quest Pex in gray, as found in Home Centers is not the same fitting or pipe as the older Quest Polybutylene.

I'm guessing these were the infamous nation wide class action law suit Quest Polybutylene pipe & fittings? Correct?? Nearly all of these original Quest fittings will eventually leak as they did in millions of house holds. You can replce them piece meal or convert the system to PEX..

This stuff is bad news!! If you have this definitely turn off your pump.

Steve Dion · Feb 27, 2009

I think you can still find Quest fittings at most RV shops and Ace Hardware. They may be marketed under another name now.

I was under the impression that Quest stuff is still commonly used in RV's and boats. The problem with the Quest pipe was that it did NOT do well under "high" pressure like some may experience in a home.