Was i in the wrong?.......

[Scott]

Higgs got it right ...

Frank, you say the guys were gesturing at you as they went by? I suppose they were specifically using their middle finger? That's pretty rude. I wouldn't give them the time of day. Why did you even bother to try to hail them?Obviously, they were the inconsiderate ones, or they would have been hailing you first. Honestly, I don't know why it seems that there are so many people (guys mostly), either in the right or in the wrong, who feel that everything has to be a confrontation so as to protect their manlihood.I've never had a problem on the water (from what I read, it seems like Lake Hopatcong must be the only waterway in the world where everybody is considerate, happy, and willing to get along with each other even on extremely busy weekends!), but from encounters on the roadway where rudeness and aggressive driving is commonplace, I find that it is far easier to ignore anybody who is agitated and save yourself any agitation or meaningless confrontations with strangers when you have no idea where they fall in the scale of mental stability.

 

[Ben16737]

Stand-on

100 yards seems like a LOT of room to me. Some of these guys are blasting Frank for nothing. When I first started sailing in water inhabited by numerous power boats, I did everything I could to yield right of way to them, even when I didn't "need" to. But the fact is that most power boats are going so much faster than me, that they actually prefer when I simply maintain course and go in a straight line. That allows them to easily pick the right course to avoid a collision. If I start altering course frequently, it makes it a lot less clear where I'm trying to go, and tempers begin to flare.That's the point of being the stand-on vessel - they are more maneuverable than me, and if they know what I'm doing before I do it, it makes their job of steering that much easier.Of course, it doesn't hurt to also use the radio and/or some friendly hand signals just to keep things pleasant.

 

[Cap'n Ron]

'Red Necks of the Sea'

Frank, Both Higgs, and Moonsailor are right, especially the action taken to avoid a 'pontoon boat' that was out of line.Be careful who to believe on this site as many have an agenda, egos etc and much false and biased information is lectured as if the word of God.If you are underway in a power/vessel and are overtaken by a small sailboat; you are STILL the stand on 'privilaged' vessel!These vessels were burdened to not only stand off as they approached to overtake and pass you, by USCG Code of Federal Regulations they have to ASK your permission to pass by horn or radio.Many fishermen do NOT follow the rules, often bully their way through rec vessels and (even the 'nice' ones) think that only a complete fool would be out there for fun. These guys, for most part, hate rec boaters with a passion, especially sailboats.The reasoning goes way back, but you are dealing with neandrathals that are losing their fishing grounds to the Japanese, Russians and everyone else, and get angry more easily than they used to which was quick anyway.They view it as a weakness to use the radio, especilly to a lowley sailor, but when in trouble will call on everybody!I fairness the poor sods go out in awful weather (no choice) die out there, and are the experts on tactics & manuvers of power.I sailed in fairways as a kid, but you should do it only if your engine is dead, or little traffic on a dead run or reach when you will not impede traffic for 'fun'.From their point of view, you were an arragant yuppie showing off; they just wanted to get home and likely get some hard earned sleep...."and that's all I gots to say 'bout dat"

 

[Jeff Bacon]

Remember, there is no.......

... such thing as "Constrained by Draft" in the inland rules. That is international only, and does not apply to inland.Higgs has it 100% correct. The original poster asked if he was in the wrong. He was not.Jeff

 

[Josh]

guys..

RULE 9NARROW CHANNELS(a) (i) [Inld] A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.He was not following this rule?(ii) Notwithstanding paragraph (a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channels or fairways on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way over an upbound vessel, shall propose the manner and place of passage, and shall initiate the maneuvering signals prescribed by Rule 34(a)(i), as appropriate. The vessel proceeding upbound against the current shall hold as necessary to permit safe passing. [Inld]Don't know where he was or inbound / outbound but someone did state inland.(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.All vessels were less than 20 meters and who can safely navigate in 4 feet of water power or sail especially a trawler with a deep skeg?(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.Again Frank was tacking up a 300 foot wide channel with FIVE other boats he and another sail boat and four trawlers. Let's do the math on a 300 foot wide channel. How close will you run to the edges of a channel? For safety's sake 25 feet would be my guess for most non reckless boaters? So 25 feet from either edge leaves 250 feet. Now how close is your comfort zone when passing other boaters whom you don't know? For me it's about 40-50 feet anything closer is like being in someones personal space. So now with six boats we have a very narrow and crowded channel. I think they were both wrong for different reasons but from the post and not knowing where he was or inbound / outbound it's hard to say. I still think it's incredibly inconsiderate to tack up a busy 300 foot wide channel but it was also very rude of the trawler to not state his intentions, use signals and in general be a dick! It's also inconsiderate to assume the draft of another vessel when most oft he recreational trawlers draw between 3.5 and 4.5 feet when sitting still and 4.5 to 5.5 feet when under power but it could be more.

 

[JerryA]

I know the question

Frank,I don't know the right answer, although I always try to stand-on when I should be because I think the other boats expect that behavior. I don't like the person at a stop sign that waives me on when they have the right-of-way. But I know the question very well as I was asking myself the same thing this past weekend in a similar situation. I needed to make two tacks to clear the channel leaving the bay. There were other boats approaching, but I had time or so I thought. One was about a 40 foot powerboat that I had not noticed was passing everything further off. Anyway he had plenty of room, actually the wider side of the channel, to pass behind me. He chose instead to pass me in front at a pretty good speed leaving a 5 foot wake that all but stopped my 23 footer just before I was ready to tack back across the channel. This put me in a bad spot that I had not anticipated. Right or wrong, I was now in the way of others. I still had room to gather it back up and get going, but I'm sure that these other boaters were not expecting me to be sitting almost motionless and sideways in the channel, and I hadn't planned it that way either. Lesson learned though, next time I wait for a bigger hole or use the motor this short amount of time. Oh, and if any of you guys were those boats, sorry and thanks.JerryA

 

[Tom Monroe]

Unless I'm racing ...

... I have ceased to worry about right and wrong. The only reasonable assumptions I can make are that the other guy does not know or care about "rules", and is probably intoxicated. That may not be true ... there are many fine and knowledgable boaters out there. But I just can't assume anymore that one of them is in command. I HAVE to assume worst case. So I always place the burden on myself and stay out of the way. Tom MonroeCarlyle Lake

 

[Jean Gosse]

Sailing through a channel

1. Why all this "stand on" "stand off"? one is the right of way vessel, the other burdened. It is like starboard and larboard, hard to distinguish.2. It appears these were all pleasure boats. I can't imagine a fishing trawler with nets out in a narrow channel with lots of traffic. In the first place, probably no fish, in the second, with shallow water, the nets would catch bottom.3. Sail takes precedence over power if the power boat is of a size that can manouver easily in the channel. If the power boat is very large and cannot change course readily, the sail boat should give him room. Hang in a luff for a moment while he passes, then back the jib to continue on your course.4. Our narrowest channel with a large boat was a 30'er on a river in the Norfolk Broads. We were tacking down a narrow river. Power boats coming and going. They uniformly waited a moment until we had tacked, then hurried across our stern and on their way. Their wash pushed us along our course. I think the hire company gave them this instruction as most were hired boats and probably only a few experienced boat handlers.5. Too many people buy large, powerful boats and think their horsepower gives them right of way. Unfortunately, too many people buy large sailboats as a "first boat" and get into trouble because the boat and its gear exceed the strength and experience of the skipper and crew.6. Too bad we cannot insist everyone learn to handle a small (under 12') sailboat and a low powered outboard in all sorts of weather and traffic conditions before being turned use with the yacht of his dreams.

 

[MoonSailer]

Standing on is not an option it is a rule

The rule is so that we know what to expect. The stand-on vessel has to follow the rules too. If you are a stand on vessel and change course in such a way as to cause the give way vessel to have an accident you are liable!!! That is why I stand -on until the only way to avoid and accident is to give way. But if you are the stand on and you turn in such a way that the overtaking vessel runs aground to avoid you or even hits you, you are at fault!!!! Standing on is not some privlige it is an obligation!!!! That way the other boats know what to expect. Just like I expect people to stop at red lights and stop signs. The ship expects you to stay out of his way in the channel..you expect him to stay in the channel..... But an overtaking vessel should expect you to stay the course until he passes. If you suddenly change directions you are breaking the rules. I 've had to dump my sails because an overtaking vessel took too long to pass and my choices were to turn into the vessel run aground or dump sails.

 

[higgs]

Jean

The terms "privilaged" and "burdened" are no longer part of the legal language in regards to rules of the road. Likewise, in meeting situations, the term "right of way" is no longer in official use to refer to a vessel. The new terms, stand on and give way, are designed to imply each vessel's responsibility, and as MoonSailor states, standing on is a responsibility - not a right.Obviously, if standing on is going to cause a collision, then one's responsibility changes to doing what is necessary to avoid a collision.

 

[Dick Dixon]

Okay guys & gals.....enough is enough.....

I was the other sailboat sailing up the channel with Frank, albeit a hundred yards ahead. Until the three pleasure boats, trawlers if you will (30 to 34 feet long), approached Frank first and then me, there was NO OTHER TRAFFIC IN THE CHANNEL. We had every right to be sailing up that channel. The first two pleasure boats passed he, then me, leaving plenty of room. Frank was two thirds across the right side of the channel, sailing at a 45 degree angle, when the third pleasure boat approached FROM BEHIND. This boat refused at first to alter course (albeit 10 degrees or less to avoid a situation) despite the fact that he was, 1)under power approaching a vessel under sail; 2)overtaking a slower vessel, and 3) approaching the slower vessel more than two points behind that vessel's beam. Hummm...I think Chapman's says something about this. Call it burdened, stand on, or whatever, it was the overtaking vessel's responsibility to pass clear of the slower ahead vessel. Period. Now here are some things you armchair sailors didn't know: The captain and crew of the power boat were under the influence and in a hurry to get home, having nearly completed a 90 mile trip that day. I confirmed that information Monday morning with the captain of one of the other vessels. Also, moments after the incident occurred, I spoke with the captain of that vessel via VHF.....he told me as a powerboat in a restricted channel he had all the rights saying that the sailboat had to stay clear of him at all costs. Hummmm....sounds just like another arrogant powerboater to me! I must admit I find it very amusing reading all these "expert" opinions when most, it seems, either 'sail' using their computer and a comfortable chair, or dream about it while reading Cruising World or Sail magazines. I warned Frank before he made the post that many would say he was responsible for what happened. I was there and he clearly was not responsible. I know no one died and made me king, but unlike some of these do gooders, I know I'm not perfect. But after more than 35 years of on the water sailing experience, I know from the school of hard knocks who has the right-of-way. Now go ahead and attack me.Have a nice day. Dick Dixon P.S. I hope I never meet some of you on the water.

 

[Rick Webb]

I'll Stand By My Post

Funny how these things get going to the point where folks are arguing about facts which are different and absolutely not relevant to the original situation. Such as whether or not a boat going upstream or down is the stand on or give way vessel. Sailors under sail often get a bit arrogant believing they do not have to give way to ANY other boat that is not so though it certainly is the case under the circumstances presented. That being said I always give way to a drunken butthead in a power boat.

 

[John Howitt]

"Stand Off"

This is exactly the behavior that expains why hand guns are illegal in Canada.

 

[tcbro]

Frank, you did the right thing

I agree with Higgs and the others. These were pleasure boats not commercial boats plying their trade. You were under sail and they were under power. They were overtaking you and 100yds is plenty of room for a 40' trawler to manuever. Your responsibility was to hold your course so the overtaking powerboat could adjust his course to avoid you. I'm 100% behind your action, I would have done exactly the same thing because that's what a knowledgable captain would have been expecting. Toms/v Orion's Child

 

[MoonSailer]

John in the USA adults take responsiblity

Responsible adults act responsibly and don't need the government to keep them in perpetual childhood. I've owned one or more handguns for over 35 years. none of which has ever been pointed at a person. Will the people in Canada ever be treated as adults capable of acting responsibly??? There are criminals in every society that will use whatever weapon is available. That is why Lock-blade knives are illegal in San Antonio, Texas seems that there the gangs prefer to cut and stab each other. Here in Birmingham they had 4 teenage boys beat a 35 year old man to death in his front yard with ball bats...bats are illegal in many cities unless you are obviously going to play ball. BTW a handgun would be a poor choice of a weapon to use to shoot someone in a boat. A rifle or shotgun loaded with a slug would be much more effective. Heck a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs could sink the offending boat. Lack of freedom is never something to make one proud. Of course with freedom you are expected to act like a responsible adult as do most gun owners in the USA. Hope that you grow up some day. Frank I always said that you were right...sometimes being right isn't enough and as responsible boaters we have to take actions to avoid accidents. You did well!!!

 

[filthy liberal scum]

frank ; you were correct!

under sail or power the overtaking vessel is required to keep clear. unless its a commercial vessel fishing or restricted by its draft or its maneuverability. a drunken power boater in a 300' wide channel hardly meets these criterion. myself, i just assume that they either don't know the regs, don't care, or are too drunk to know the difference. I just prefer to try to stay the hell out of their paths. i really don't want to be DEAD right.S/V Que Pasa?

 

[S/V Anna Lynn]

Frank, You are correct!!!

Frank,Some of the responses I have read remind me that we have some really ignorant boaters on the water. In the case you describe, you had the right away, due to the fact you were the overtaken vessel, and should have maintained course and speed. the trawler you describe was the overtaking vessel and should remain clear. In this case you are required to "stand-on" and only take action as to avoid a collision. This is a clear case where we have boaters on the water with no idea as to the "rules of the road". It is rather upsetting that, not all the e-mail responders understand the rules. Since I often navigate vessels in the category of unlimited tonnage in restricted waterways, several of these e-mails explain a lot of the really dumb things I experience. The bottom line Frank is, You were correct in your assumptions.

 

[Big Windy]

Correct...

...or not, doesn't make any difference. The bottom line is to avoid a collision. I'd bet most power boaters don't have a clue about who has the right of way in various situations. Had I been in Frank's position, and had a working motor...I'd have motored up a 100 yard channel.

 

[Warren Milberg]

Collision Avoidance....

"The U.S. Coast Guard is reminding mariners of the importance of maintaining a proper lookout. Rule 5 of the INLAND AND INTERNATIONALNAVIGATION RULES requires that all vessels maintain a proper lookout at all times by sight and hearing, as well as by all available meansappropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions, so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision. Action takento avoid a collision shall be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship. When a risk of collisionexists, all vessels, regardless of whether they are the stand-on vessel or the give-way vessel, must take prompt action to avoid a collision.When in doubt about whether a risk of collision exists, mariners should assume there is risk of collision and act accordingly....."

 

[Tom Monroe]

12 posts ago

I'm astounded.12 post ago on this thread, I stated basically that "rules" only work when both boats know them and agree to follow them. That no longer being a reasonable assumption, the only logical thing you can do is always place the burden on yourself and stay the &*^&% out of the way.Does no one agree with this? Or disagree?My answer to the original post ... was I right or wrong? ... is that it doesn't matter. The guy was drunk. Stay out of his way.Tom MonroeCarlyle Lake