Vinegar In The Head, Useful...?

jviss · Sep 12, 2013

That's interesting. I'm a weekend user, and I always use lots of water when I flush. I don' think our lines have ever been replaced, and at 29 years there's no perceptible blockage, and there's no odor, and everything seems to work fine. I guess I could take a hose off and take a look, and on a C36 it's really not hard to replace the hose, and it's not a lot of hose; so If I disconnect it maybe I'll just be prepared to replace it. But so far, so good.

Stu Jackson · Sep 12, 2013

PEGGIE HALL'S Greatest Hits

Head Replacement 101 - Installation of PHII Head http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3797.0.html

Head Odors 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5755.0.html

Head Odors 101.1 - "T" into sink drain: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5755.msg38216.html#msg38216

Head Odors 101.2 The Difference between KO & Odorlos (scroll up to Reply #2) http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=890493&highlight=odorlos

Head Hoses 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5738.0.html

Fresh Water System Recommissioning 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5836.0.html

thinwater · Sep 12, 2013

Mainsail, please try your test with CLR. Based on lactic acid, I have tested it on joker valves and found it to be far more effective than vinegar or Redilime or Limeaway. It is also genter on other materials (neoprene and metals). However, I did not test it in hoses.

Stu Jackson · Sep 12, 2013

Didn't PS just do some writeup about this recently?

Posted here and elsewhere?

kloudie1 · Sep 12, 2013

Back in 1992 after I'd owned the boat for some months, we had a problem where the calcium scale all seemed to start sloughing off the tank walls and inside hoses.. It was plentiful enough that the diaphragm pump out pump valves clogged shut.. No fun to clear that.. !
I recovered the deposits and tried a lot of different stuff to dissolve it.. I found that hydrochloric acid from the swimming pool shop would really do a job of boiling it off but would generate a lot of nasty gas in the process. I brought a gallon of acid out, planning to dump it down the pump-out line so it could clean the tank.. then after imagining the gas and acid gusher that would follow, I decided to change hoses and clean the pump valves on a regular basis.. I don't wait until they clog.

Stu Jackson · Sep 12, 2013

Head Hose Issues

Thanks for your idea of trying something different.

It seems to me that the easiest thing to do is to replace the blinkin' hoses.

How old were they?

RichH · Sep 12, 2013

kloudie1 said:
Back in 1992 after I'd owned the boat for some months, we had a problem where the calcium scale all seemed to start sloughing off the tank walls and inside hoses.. It was plentiful enough that the diaphragm pump out pump valves clogged shut.. No fun to clear that.. !
I recovered the deposits and tried a lot of different stuff to dissolve it.. I found that hydrochloric acid from the swimming pool shop would really do a job of boiling it off but would generate a lot of nasty gas in the process. I brought a gallon of acid out, planning to dump it down the pump-out line so it could clean the tank.. then after imagining the gas and acid gusher that would follow, I decided to change hoses and clean the pump valves on a regular basis.. I don't wait until they clog.

The gas coming off is carbon dioxide.
Its best to use 'strong' acids such as Hydrochloric/Muriatic but should be diluted to allow them to be more 'dissociated' for better effectiveness in dissolving the 'calcite' (calcium carbonate). If you can estimate the weight amount of calcite, the internet (Wiki, etc.) has tables/formulas to determine the amount of HCl to be used.

Yourself and Stu have probably the best remedy - just replace the damn hose; less opportunity for acid burns. Just dont go around shaking hands or biting your fingernails when youre finished.

Stu Jackson · Sep 12, 2013

RichH said:
... just replace the damn hose; less opportunity for acid burns. Just dont go around shaking hands or biting your fingernails when youre finished.

Or before either...

Bazzer · Sep 12, 2013

I did a test with a piece of calcium and coca cola, it dissolved it overnight. I don't know what it will do to the seals though

All U Get · Sep 13, 2013

If you flush with fresh water will this build-up occur?

All U Get

Rob19574 · Sep 13, 2013

Seawater is the issue here with the entire system and this is what I did:

I plumbed my head intake line to a grey-water discharge line (the head sink). I have the optional "T" in the line to switch back to raw-water / seawater intake should I need to. I only coastal weekend cruise so fresh-water supply is not a problem (on a dock too). No long-distance cruising so again, fresh water supply is not a problem. So when I flush on my my boat, its using fresh-water (instead of salt water) with some soap mixed in there too

. In 7 yrs I have not had a problem with calcium buildup and there is virtually never an odor in the system. I thought about adding a separate fresh-water tank supply for this purpose too but for now, this works fine. You just need to instruct everyone to wash your hands, then flush and it pulls the soapy sink water thru to flush.

- Rob

jviss · Sep 13, 2013

I wonder if the problem is flushing with salt water, but not flushing enough water through each time? I'm no chemist, but I would have to think that there is a necessary concentration of uric acid for to precipitate the calcium out of the seawater, and for some time to pass in this condition as well. If you flush the pipes after you pee with enough sea water so that no urine remains in the pipes in any measurable concentration for any length of time, there should be no deposits.

I suspect the folks experiencing these deposits are simply not flushing enough water through, probably out of concern for holding tank capacity, or they simply haven't ever considered what sufficient flushing is. It you can't see it in the bowl, you're done flushing - not! I flush, imagining the water moving everything into the holding tank, including flushing out the hose from bowl to tank. Since I am usually on the boat for only two days at a time, with weekly 'automatic' pump-outs, holding tank capacity is not an issue.

As I said, I have no clogged hose issues that I know of, no odor problem, and have never rebuilt the head. It's a 29 year old Wilcox-Crittenden Head Mate. I don't think it was ever rebuilt before I got the boat 13 years ago. I have a rebuild kit on board that came with the boat, just in case!

I think the key is lots of flush water.

Mainesail, if you really want to conduct an interesting experiment, get some seawater and pee, and mix varying concentrations to see what the precipitate looks like...oh, never mind.

All U Get · Sep 13, 2013

jviss said:
Mainesail, if you really want to conduct an interesting experiment, get some seawater and pee, and mix varying concentrations to see what the precipitate looks like...oh, never mind.

I'm doing that right now with my right kidney and waiting for the precipitate to flush out. Can't say that I'm happy.

All U Get

RichH · Sep 13, 2013

All U Get said:
I'm doing that right now with my right kidney and waiting for the precipitate to flush out. Can't say that I'm happy.

All U Get

Your statement is more correct than at face value.
If you dont pee a lot, you'll get kidney stones, the same chemical composition of calcite / calcium carbonate !!!!!!! Peeing a lot and with lots of 'volume' reduces the vulnerability of kidney stones.

Delezynski & Co. probably flush a lot, and with a lot more seawater than is necessary, thus diluting the 'mixture'.

Bob S · Sep 13, 2013

I read recently someone suggested hydrogen peroxide. Rich H any scientific truth to that???? Good post Maine, my education never stops.

jviss · Sep 13, 2013

So, check this which was in a California state boater's guide:

5) Synthetic hormones (from birth control pills and hormone therapy) secreted via women's urine into waterways can be absorbed by fish, causing physio- logical changes and afecting the reproductive ability of male fish. Antibiotics and other drugs taken by humans are also turning up in the nation’s water- ways.

Does anyone buy this?

thinwater · Sep 13, 2013

jviss said:
I wonder if the problem is flushing with salt water, but not flushing enough water through each time?...

Dead on.

I did some experimentation with this factor while I was playing with joker valves and chemical compatibility. While some precipitation happens almost instantly, the reactions that forms hard deposits take considerable time; contact with stale urine over a period of hours to days is required. If that were not the case, weekend warriors would have hoses that lasted for decades and cruisers would have failures within months, and that is not what we see. In fact, we see almost the opposite; little used boats get clogged up.

The best thing you can do for your sanitation system may well be 2 strokes per foot of discharge line, EVERY TIME. Much more effective than vinegar.

Of course, a freshwater flush is also very helpful, even if it just the last flush before you leave. Even though I have a seawater intake I use freshwater for all day sailing and some overnights; the intake valve is a pain to reach. The result? When I replaced the hoses after 14 years, insignificant build-up.

RichH · Sep 13, 2013

Bob S said:
I read recently someone suggested hydrogen peroxide. Rich H any scientific truth to that???? Good post Maine, my education never stops.

With hydrogen peroxide you'll have 'whiter' calcium deposits instead of dingy yellow deposits.

Acids, strong acids, even diluted strong acids. Hydrochloric, Peracetic, etc. but you need some safety expertise to use these as strong acids are potentially very harmful to human tissue - safety first.
Weak acids dont have enough 'punch' and require a verrrrrrry looooong soak times.