Should the Vega mast be exactly vertical?Or raked aft slightly?If the latter how much?Does this cause the forward end of the mast foot to lift off the shoe very slightly and does this matter?Thanks.John V1447 Breakaway
Vega Mast Rake?
- Thread starter Vega1447
- Start date
For the question about mast rake.If I was racing in light air then I'd extend the headstay a bit for some aft mast rake to help induce weather helm. That setting would provide excessive weather helm in heavy air.For heavy air I'd shorten the headstay to reduce weather helm. That setting in light air might cause "windward helm" and the boat would want to bear off.But straight up on a Vega 27 is probably good for most conditions.The heel of the mast should have a little (100cm radius) arc shaped so no matter what rake setting that the load occurs near the middle sides of the mast. If the aft heel of the mast is loaded then it would induce positive mast bend.The main thing is to have a balanced boat with just a little weather helm when the boat is sailing on it's lines. The metric for that is how far the tiller is away from centerline when the boat is sailing upwind in conditions when the mainsail boom is trimmed nearly at centerline.The tiller head should be about 10cm above centerline. For racing I might want that to be less, but it takes more concentration to steer well, especially when the wind lightens up.Does anyone race a Vega?My Vega sits on a trailer next to my house waiting for me to rebuild the boat.Happy Thanksgiving to all in the US and beyond.
Hi John - the mast should be bent in a slight arc by tightening the forward pair of lower stays and pulling back on the backstay until the head of the mast is about 20cms aft of the foot. We did an article in the VAGB newsletter some while back based on advice from the Danish Vega sailing champion who normally wins the races at our IFR's. I can't find my copy but Steve Birch has probably got a copy.Mike On Wednesday, 23 November 2016, 18:12, "Pete Carrico carrico@... [AlbinVega]" AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com wrote:
On the boat I race, I measured the luff curve cut into the sail and marked my adjustable rigging (Backstay, adj, aft lower stays) so that at the max forestay tension I want, with the backstay tight, the mast is curved to match the luff curve of the mainsail. This allows me to flatten the main to depower in stronger winds or gusty conditions. Having more mast bend than the luff curve of the sail seems pointless (unless your sail is cut that way). I suspect that the Vega mast probably can't be curved that much (to match the luff curve).Michael is right on as far as rake. Set it to balance the boat with just a bit (3degrees or so) of weather helm.I don't know what the exact rig settings for the Vega are, but I hope to race it a bit this coming season, so will hopefully know much more this time next year 
Tim
TimThanks Mike.
That recipe sounds like a bend is being put in the mast (tight
forward lowers & tight backstay)?
As distinct from the whole mast being raked back while remaining
"unbent"?
Does that put a lot more downward thrust on my (reinforced) mast
support beam & (as yet unreinforced) mast support bulkheads?
All the best,
John
PS I'd be very grateful for a copy/extract from the VAGB newsletter?
On 23/11/16 20:10, MICHAEL FREEMAN
mikeandv@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
That recipe sounds like a bend is being put in the mast (tight
forward lowers & tight backstay)?
As distinct from the whole mast being raked back while remaining
"unbent"?
Does that put a lot more downward thrust on my (reinforced) mast
support beam & (as yet unreinforced) mast support bulkheads?
All the best,
John
PS I'd be very grateful for a copy/extract from the VAGB newsletter?
On 23/11/16 20:10, MICHAEL FREEMAN
mikeandv@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
John, Mike, et. al,I fear I have to make myself look real stupid. First, I'm only a cruiser, never raced, however I do have to buy a new main, as the "original" has seen better days (yes sadly I still use the original). In the course of this new order I've been asked a number of questions by the manufacturer about what you folks are talking about, the rake of the mast and the length of the leech, etc. But, and here comes the stupid part, how in heck's name do you determine if there is ANY rake and any bow in the mast? First the boat is on water, so I don't know if it is "level" or what trim is needed in order to get it "level" and I've NO idea as to how to determine if the mast is at 90 degree, 88, 87, etc.... I know I should know something about this, but when I put up the mast, I really just hope I'm getting it perpendicular to the plane of the boat, as I just want the pressure to be DOWN, not on a slant (and yes I've reinforced the foot beam under the mast). So what am I supposed to tell the manufacturer concerning all this??? My hull number is 827 so I've no idea what "mod" this boat is, as I've heard a few reference to that, and although it is the original mast, I'm not sure what the specifications are other than what's on the website. Any input would be gratefully received. Hal Hal Kearsley
Fundamentals, non-racing: Make sure the mast is plumb athwartships, which is to say not leaning to one side. You can do this by taking a halyard and cleating it off so the shackle just touches say the forward lower shroud terminus (U bolt), then taking it to the other side and seeing where it is. Take in and ease the forward lowers until you get the mast upright. The mast can be plumb fore and aft too in my opinion. One way to do that is eyeball.When the mast is correctly up and down, tighten the forward lowers quite snug but not cranked. This can be measured with a cheap gauge if you want.Then tighten the aft lowers. These should be tight - tighter than the forward lowers as they help control forestay tension and support the mast when you are reefed. Then take in the uppers, fairly tight but not really cranked.Then check that the forestay is pretty tight. You can tighten it more by cranking on its turnbuckle, or the backstay turnbuckle. As you are doing all this frequently look up the mast track to make sure the mast is not bowing to one side or doing an S (esp when tightening the uppers). The track should be straight, although the entire mast can be bowed slightly fore and aft if you want, with the masthead and step aft of the middle section a bit - if you want.When everything seems pretty good check the shroud tension again, take in or ease as necessary, make sure the aft lowers are quite tight and the fwd lowers snug and wire and tape everything.Early in the season you will go sailing in a hard breeze and the boat will do fine and that should give you confidence in the rig for the rest of the season. The Vega mast section and rig are robust.
Nico WalshNicholas H. Walsh P.A.Admiralty and Maritime Law; Probate Litigation; Commercial LawPhone: (207) 772-2191Fax: (207 774-3940P.O. Box 7206120 Exchange St.Portland ME 04112This message is from a law firm, and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you suspect you are not the intended recipient, please delete the email and call us.
Nico WalshNicholas H. Walsh P.A.Admiralty and Maritime Law; Probate Litigation; Commercial LawPhone: (207) 772-2191Fax: (207 774-3940P.O. Box 7206120 Exchange St.Portland ME 04112This message is from a law firm, and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you suspect you are not the intended recipient, please delete the email and call us.
Hi All,Below the article from VAGB newsletter 51, mentioned by Mike, which I value a lot and use as a reference to set my mast each time I bring the boat back to water.marco baldan,Albin Vega 3339 SpraySetting up your riggingThose of you
who have attended International Friendship Rallies in northern Europeover the
last 20 years will undoubtedly heard of Danish Club member Kaiser Flemingand his Vega
Racing prowess. If he hasn’t won all the races he’s entered, hehas won most
of them. The only thing he doesn’t do is cross the North Sea so we inEngland
occasionally get a bit better chance of a win. Finally he has entered theRacing Class
so us mere mortals also get a chance of some silverware! When heentered the
Cruising Class (No Spinnaker) that left 5 mins after the start of the RacingClass, he
would still catch them up as well! He’s good, very good!In 2006 I
attended the IFR in Eckenforde and was lucky enough to get some valuableadvice from
Kaiser on Rig set up. He scribbled some points in the back of mylogbook and
I think I can interpret them. So here goesR..Wait for a
calm day with little movement from the water, moored alongside a pontoonin a marina
is ideal as you can occasionally walk away from the boat to get anoverall view
of the rig. Rig all your stays relatively loosely. Hoist a light line to themast head
and tie a weight to it just above the cabin roof to act as a plumb line.Make sure
the boat is not listing and is level on the water line. Fore and aft trim canbe checked
by the screws set into the bow and stern on the ideal water line.Page 10 Vega Association of Great Britain Newsletter
51If you cannot find these floatation marks you can mark
them as follows:Forward mark
is 1116 mm from the deck level measured down the stem and the Aftmark is
350mm from the lowest point of the transom measured forward along thecentre line
of the hull.It is likely
that your boat will not float to these marks because she will be heavier orlighter than
standard or the weight is unevenly distributed but they will give you anidea of
where you should be floating.Stage one.Centre the
mast by adjusting the masthead stays and check that the plumb bob ison the centre
line.Stage Two.By adjusting
the forestay and backstay rake the masthead backwards by between 1and 3
degrees, (you can see that Kaiser was careful not to give me too precise
instructions)From the
masthead to the Boom is 7.9 m according to the Vega handbookso 1degree
of rake would equal 14cms along the boom and 3degrees 41cms.Don’t query
the maths just believe. I personally have never had the nerve to try thefull 3
degrees.Stage ThreeBy adjusting
the two forward lower stays, pull the centre of the mast forward by halfits
diameter. This can be seen by stretching your plumbline tight against the rearsurface of
the mast just above the boom.Stage FourTake up any
slack in the after lower stays but do not over tighten. All the stays apartfrom the aft
lower stays should be tightened down hard taking care not to disturbthe relative
positions of the mast as set up in stages 1 to 3. I’ve never used a stressmeter on my
rigging so cannot give you a figure to work to but I think most of us aremore likely
to under tighten than over tighten.When sailing
close hauled in a moderate to strong breeze the leeward riggingshould not
sag apart from maybe some movement in the aft lower stays.My boat has
certainly sailed better since getting Kaisers advice but to do really wellyou need his
skill and experience (as well as his unique ability to reduce all weightby simply
dumping most of the contents of his boat on the pontoon before racing. Itis alleged
that his wife gave him a flask of coffee before the racing in Hundestedand he
poured the contents over the side before the race. I don’t believe this as Iknow he
would have thrown the whole flask over the side.
Mike Freeman Vega
“Jenavive” From: "Nico Walsh nwalsh@... [AlbinVega]" <AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com> To: Albin Vega Groups <AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016, 18:38 Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Vega Mast Rake?
Fundamentals, non-racing: Make sure the mast is plumb athwartships, which is to say not leaning to one side. You can do this by taking a halyard and cleating it off so the shackle just touches say the forward lower shroud terminus (U bolt), then taking it to the other side and seeing where it is. Take in and ease the forward lowers until you get the mast upright. The mast can be plumb fore and aft too in my opinion. One way to do that is eyeball.When the mast is correctly up and down, tighten the forward lowers quite snug but not cranked. This can be measured with a cheap gauge if you want.Then tighten the aft lowers. These should be tight - tighter than the forward lowers as they help control forestay tension and support the mast when you are reefed. Then take in the uppers, fairly tight but not really cranked.Then check that the forestay is pretty tight. You can tighten it more by cranking on its turnbuckle, or the backstay turnbuckle. As you are doing all this frequently look up the mast track to make sure the mast is not bowing to one side or doing an S (esp when tightening the uppers). The track should be straight, although the entire mast can be bowed slightly fore and aft if you want, with the masthead and step aft of the middle section a bit - if you want.When everything seems pretty good check the shroud tension again, take in or ease as necessary, make sure the aft lowers are quite tight and the fwd lowers snug and wire and tape everything.Early in the season you will go sailing in a hard breeze and the boat will do fine and that should give you confidence in the rig for the rest of the season. The Vega mast section and rig are robust.
Nico WalshNicholas H. Walsh P.A.Admiralty and Maritime Law; Probate Litigation; Commercial LawPhone: (207) 772-2191Fax: (207 774-(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
who have attended International Friendship Rallies in northern Europeover the
last 20 years will undoubtedly heard of Danish Club member Kaiser Flemingand his Vega
Racing prowess. If he hasn’t won all the races he’s entered, hehas won most
of them. The only thing he doesn’t do is cross the North Sea so we inEngland
occasionally get a bit better chance of a win. Finally he has entered theRacing Class
so us mere mortals also get a chance of some silverware! When heentered the
Cruising Class (No Spinnaker) that left 5 mins after the start of the RacingClass, he
would still catch them up as well! He’s good, very good!In 2006 I
attended the IFR in Eckenforde and was lucky enough to get some valuableadvice from
Kaiser on Rig set up. He scribbled some points in the back of mylogbook and
I think I can interpret them. So here goesR..Wait for a
calm day with little movement from the water, moored alongside a pontoonin a marina
is ideal as you can occasionally walk away from the boat to get anoverall view
of the rig. Rig all your stays relatively loosely. Hoist a light line to themast head
and tie a weight to it just above the cabin roof to act as a plumb line.Make sure
the boat is not listing and is level on the water line. Fore and aft trim canbe checked
by the screws set into the bow and stern on the ideal water line.Page 10 Vega Association of Great Britain Newsletter
51If you cannot find these floatation marks you can mark
them as follows:Forward mark
is 1116 mm from the deck level measured down the stem and the Aftmark is
350mm from the lowest point of the transom measured forward along thecentre line
of the hull.It is likely
that your boat will not float to these marks because she will be heavier orlighter than
standard or the weight is unevenly distributed but they will give you anidea of
where you should be floating.Stage one.Centre the
mast by adjusting the masthead stays and check that the plumb bob ison the centre
line.Stage Two.By adjusting
the forestay and backstay rake the masthead backwards by between 1and 3
degrees, (you can see that Kaiser was careful not to give me too precise
instructions)From the
masthead to the Boom is 7.9 m according to the Vega handbookso 1degree
of rake would equal 14cms along the boom and 3degrees 41cms.Don’t query
the maths just believe. I personally have never had the nerve to try thefull 3
degrees.Stage ThreeBy adjusting
the two forward lower stays, pull the centre of the mast forward by halfits
diameter. This can be seen by stretching your plumbline tight against the rearsurface of
the mast just above the boom.Stage FourTake up any
slack in the after lower stays but do not over tighten. All the stays apartfrom the aft
lower stays should be tightened down hard taking care not to disturbthe relative
positions of the mast as set up in stages 1 to 3. I’ve never used a stressmeter on my
rigging so cannot give you a figure to work to but I think most of us aremore likely
to under tighten than over tighten.When sailing
close hauled in a moderate to strong breeze the leeward riggingshould not
sag apart from maybe some movement in the aft lower stays.My boat has
certainly sailed better since getting Kaisers advice but to do really wellyou need his
skill and experience (as well as his unique ability to reduce all weightby simply
dumping most of the contents of his boat on the pontoon before racing. Itis alleged
that his wife gave him a flask of coffee before the racing in Hundestedand he
poured the contents over the side before the race. I don’t believe this as Iknow he
would have thrown the whole flask over the side.
Mike Freeman Vega
“Jenavive” From: "Nico Walsh nwalsh@... [AlbinVega]" <AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com> To: Albin Vega Groups <AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, 25 November 2016, 18:38 Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Vega Mast Rake?
Fundamentals, non-racing: Make sure the mast is plumb athwartships, which is to say not leaning to one side. You can do this by taking a halyard and cleating it off so the shackle just touches say the forward lower shroud terminus (U bolt), then taking it to the other side and seeing where it is. Take in and ease the forward lowers until you get the mast upright. The mast can be plumb fore and aft too in my opinion. One way to do that is eyeball.When the mast is correctly up and down, tighten the forward lowers quite snug but not cranked. This can be measured with a cheap gauge if you want.Then tighten the aft lowers. These should be tight - tighter than the forward lowers as they help control forestay tension and support the mast when you are reefed. Then take in the uppers, fairly tight but not really cranked.Then check that the forestay is pretty tight. You can tighten it more by cranking on its turnbuckle, or the backstay turnbuckle. As you are doing all this frequently look up the mast track to make sure the mast is not bowing to one side or doing an S (esp when tightening the uppers). The track should be straight, although the entire mast can be bowed slightly fore and aft if you want, with the masthead and step aft of the middle section a bit - if you want.When everything seems pretty good check the shroud tension again, take in or ease as necessary, make sure the aft lowers are quite tight and the fwd lowers snug and wire and tape everything.Early in the season you will go sailing in a hard breeze and the boat will do fine and that should give you confidence in the rig for the rest of the season. The Vega mast section and rig are robust.
Nico WalshNicholas H. Walsh P.A.Admiralty and Maritime Law; Probate Litigation; Commercial LawPhone: (207) 772-2191Fax: (207 774-(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
I think that Fleming process looks very good indeed.And that bit about excess weight aboard is something we should all keep in mind. Boats slowly accumulate unnecessary weight and become heavy and slow. I very occasionally would take everything out of my Vega, mask the electrics and wash the whole boat with hot water and detergent, even unto bringing a hose down below I seem to remember! Then I’d park electric blower heaters and thoroughly dry the boat and she would be so fresh below. (I strongly recommend this procedure, which takes most of a day, if your boat feels musty and dirty.) But the process also forced me to decide what gear stayed on board and what should be jettisoned.I should here admit that I am out of the Vega club, after 16 years. We now own a 1990 Cabo Rico 34, Far and Away. Like a Vega she is very strong. The sailplan (cutter) is easily manageable. I love the all chain rode. The running gear is good, I like the 6.5 knot hull speed and she is certainly comfortable below. But owing to a lovely quarter cabin the storage space for sails and other large gear is perhaps 1/3 of a Vega’s. I literally have nowhere I can easily stow a reacher. Not that I’d go back, but having cruised a bit in different boats now over the past 50 years I think Vegas are extremely well designed yachts.
Nico WalshNicholas H. Walsh P.A.Admiralty and Maritime Law; Probate Litigation; Commercial LawPhone: (207) 772-2191Fax: (207 774-3940P.O. Box 7206120 Exchange St.Portland ME 04112This message is from a law firm, and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you suspect you are not the intended recipient, please delete the email and call us.
Nico WalshNicholas H. Walsh P.A.Admiralty and Maritime Law; Probate Litigation; Commercial LawPhone: (207) 772-2191Fax: (207 774-3940P.O. Box 7206120 Exchange St.Portland ME 04112This message is from a law firm, and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you suspect you are not the intended recipient, please delete the email and call us.
Thanks Marco, that's a great write up! It seems the Vega's rig is tuned pretty much identically to the way I tune our Catalina 22, so it should be a smooth transition when I finally get "Impetuous!" in the water.Cheers,Gene NeillVega #3360
Just a note to say that I followed advice from this thread - having
first doubled up (now 20 mm thick) my load bearing bulkheads.
I tightened the forward lower shrouds lots to bend the mast forward
a little, normal tension on uppers, aft lowers not tight &
cranked up the back stay.
Visually the mast has a slight aft rake - not dramatic.
Result - the boat points noticeably higher.
Thanks to all,
John V1447 Breakaway
On 26/11/16 21:50, Nico Walsh
nwalsh@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
first doubled up (now 20 mm thick) my load bearing bulkheads.
I tightened the forward lower shrouds lots to bend the mast forward
a little, normal tension on uppers, aft lowers not tight &
cranked up the back stay.
Visually the mast has a slight aft rake - not dramatic.
Result - the boat points noticeably higher.
Thanks to all,
John V1447 Breakaway
On 26/11/16 21:50, Nico Walsh
nwalsh@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
Thanks for that.
I didn't notice any weather helm under full furling genoa & main
in F3+ conditions recently.
But out in F5-6 last weekend (2 reefs in main & genoa furled
almost to first red spot) with a friend helming, helmsman reported
slight lee helm when sailing hard on the wind.
We didn't need to furl more headsail but presumably that would have
remedied.
Should I conclude that (slight) mast rake makes the boat more
sensitive to sail trim?
Thanks again,
John V1447 Breakaway
On 08/03/17 14:53, Howard Barbour sailshiva@...
[AlbinVega] wrote:
I didn't notice any weather helm under full furling genoa & main
in F3+ conditions recently.
But out in F5-6 last weekend (2 reefs in main & genoa furled
almost to first red spot) with a friend helming, helmsman reported
slight lee helm when sailing hard on the wind.
We didn't need to furl more headsail but presumably that would have
remedied.
Should I conclude that (slight) mast rake makes the boat more
sensitive to sail trim?
Thanks again,
John V1447 Breakaway
On 08/03/17 14:53, Howard Barbour sailshiva@...
[AlbinVega] wrote:
Sounds like you've got right, consensus is masthead forward if you have weather helm.Sent from my iPad