Usually or unusually bad mechanic story?

[OldGringo]

I am a pretty new boat owner and I have this guy working on my boat and I’m not sure what to think... if any of you more seasoned types can make it to the end of this story, I’d be interested to know:

1) Are all (or a lot of) people who work on boats this lackadaisical about completing work?

2) What do you think about this “special order” spare part, which is coming in a few weeks, but can’t be returned?

The Universal M-18 diesel in my sailboat developed an oil leak, somewhere around
the Oberdorfer raw water pump. There is no mechanic right at my marina, but there is one not too far away who has a dock where I can take the boat and leave it while they fix it, so to avoid getting charged “travel time” I took it there. This was 3 weeks ago Sunday, call that day 0. Before starting the journey to their dock I topped off the oil level, and also put new absorbent pads under the engine (to give them a clue how much oil leaked out during the trip which included about 1 hour of motoring). When I got there I looked and some oil had leaked onto the pads, but not a huge amount.

Day 1 I call them, yes the boat is there, yes they noticed that it is tied to their dock.

Day 5 it took them a little while to get to my boat, but the problem was diagnosed as pinholes in the engine front cover, due to corrosion, due to the raw water pump leaking at some point in its long life. So they applied some epoxy to fix the pinholes, the boat is reported as fixed.

Day 8 it took a few days before I had a chance to go get the boat, but finally I made it. I check the dipstick and find NO OIL whatsoever in the engine. Weird. Also I did notice that the absorbent pad seemed to have a lot more oil on it than it did at the end of “day 0”. I start adding some oil and quickly see that a much worse oil leak has developed, the engine has a tube that comes out of the oil pan, which bends up and ends up being what you stick the dipstick into, somehow THIS has now cracked or rotted through and is leaking badly enough to empty all the oil in short order, even while the engine isn’t running. So I go back into the shop and tell them the boat has developed this other problem. The mechanic calls his parts supplier to order a new tube. There is some question that it might take awhile to get the new part, we discuss paying for fast shipment, he is supposed to find out how long it’s going to take to get the part and let me know.

Day 12 having heard nothing (and kind of expecting this meant the part was coming soon) I call him, he tells me it might be “a week or two”.

Day 15 is monday so I get on the phone, I am able to find what sounds to me like the right part (ordering dipstick tubes for Universal M-18 diesels is not nearly as settled a science as I would have expected!), in stock, on the other side of the country.

Day 16 I talk to the mechanic, he says sure, go ahead and get one sooner if I can, he’ll be happy to put it on.

Day 17 I order the part for 2-day delivery, going straight to the mechanic.

Day 18 I call the mechanic to tell them the part is coming. The secretary tells me that the part THEY ordered is a “special order” which can’t be returned (or cancelled, I guess), it seems like they are worried about getting stuck with it. She asks if the one I ordered can be returned. Well, maybe... I ask when the one they ordered is due in. She tells me “it might be a couple of weeks”. I tell them to go ahead and put in the one that comes tomorrow, maybe we can figure out something fair on the other one.

Day 19 is today. I’m starting to feel like the guy who’s been sitting at the poker table for 30 minutes and hasn’t figured out who the sucker is. It’s not always going to be like this, is it?

 

[Ross]

You must know your mechanic! Even better you should be your mechanic.

 

[tommays]

Well

Sounds kind of bad

BUT

1. At least here its the worst time of year to get a repiar done as everybody who should have had things done over the winter wants it right now in a very short time frame

So somebody ends up on the end of a list

2. The motor sounds like its in rough shape from long term neglect and at least here you would have to sign a corrision dammage waiver as you end up breaking things trying to work through a rusty mess

 

[Ralph Johnstone]

Sorry to Hear Yoru Tale of Woe

................. but this is pretty well what you can expect from the entire pleasure boat maintenance industry. I went through through the same scenario and quickly learned that you have to be your own expert if you own a sailboat. There are a few really good service people out there but for the most part, just con men. :cussing:
As an example of NOT getting what you paid for, last summer friends had a near sinking of their boat when an improperly installed mechanical shaft seal failed in a big way. And don't even think of letting a "self styled electrician" near your boat unless this person has some form of government electrical trade certification. This is a sure fire (pardon the pun) recipe for disaster.

Your best defense for engine maintenance is to take a reputable diesel engine maintenance course given in your area, purchase Calder's "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual" and also purchase the Universal shop manual and a Seloc manual for your engine.

Doing your own maintenance is really your only defense against the armada of uncontrolled amateurs out there just waiting to get their hands on your boat and do their evil.

 

[MrUnix]

It’s not always going to be like this, is it?

Short answer: Yes

Just like finding a good auto mechanic, it's a hit or miss ordeal and the good ones are few and far between. That is why you see so many boat owners doing their own work.

Cheers,
Brad

 

[Rick D]

Unfortunate Reality

Over 40 years of boat ownership, I have come to lower my expectations regarding service personnel. It is critical to poll your dockmates and club members to get an idea who is reliable and who is not. This experience itself isn't necessarily indicative of a bad mechanic. However, I'd start being a tad pesty as it relates to time and attention.

BTW, I wanted to have some canvas work done in winter. I called three different guys two times each and never got a return call despite talking to the tech himself or his office. Out of frustration, I brought all my stuff 100 miles inland to a local guy. So.... good luck! Let us know how this saga ends!

 

[alexco38]

Good trades people

They don't need to advertise. Ask other people for their experience / reference.

 

[Stu Jackson]

The simple answer is to learn to work on your boat yourself. That's if you want to a) get anything done at all; and b) get anything done right. Really. Boat mechanic is an oxymoron. They are few and far between. And every time I find a good one, I tell people about it. I've found a good surveyor and a good electrician. No good mechanics. Been 35 years.

When I first read your post, I thought your problem, was an easy fix: www.marinedieseldirect.com or DEPCO pump company sells replacement parts or a completely new Oberdorfer pump. Your symptoms are that the water and oil seals were gone and simply needed to be replaced. There are no special order parts for this fix.

This leaking occurred on my engine when I first got our, then 12 year old boat in 1998. I did some research. Chose to buy a complete new pump 'cuz it would have cost about the same to have the shop push out the old seals and put new ones in. Took me a day to get the old one out and 15 minutes to get the new one back in.

BTW - I barely knew one end of my engine from the other back then, but the only way to learn is to do it.

In your case, unfortunately, it was more. Sorry to hear. Good luck.

 

[druid]

In General, I agree with the sentiment of working on your own boat - I learned ALL about Universal engines after a 10-year-long fruitless search for someone in Vancouver that had even HEARD of a Universal.

That said, it looks like your problem is not the mechanic but the supplier. I do my own work, but have a dozen or so stories similar to yours about ordering/obtaining/paying for parts. Yes, it's not unusual to have a "no return" policy on a special order: in fact, I'm surprised they didn't require you to pay for it up front. And I've paid over $50 for a $5 bolt to get quick delivery.

And I'm still not convinced they've found your problem. The Oberdorfer pumps are notorious for leaking, both water AND oil (there's a seal on the shaft going into the engine). After all this, you may find the original leak is still there...

druid - Gonna start Druid Diesels as soon as I retire

 

[Stu Jackson]

Oberdorfer pumps

The Oberdorfer pumps are notorious for leaking, both water AND oil (there's a seal on the shaft going into the engine). After all this, you may find the original leak is still there...

Druid Diesels - hmm, sounds like a good idea, why not start right now?

Oberdorfer pumps are not known for leaking any more than others, because they have the same design as, say the Sherwood pumps. Because of where they go into the engine, they need the seals. My first pump on our engine lasted from 1986 to 1998. Not too shabby. If they simply made a raw water pump for Universals that ran off the alternator belt, like the freshwater cooling pump, then there wouldn't be this inherent design issue of keeping the water and oil seals intact. It's the engine design, not the pump that's the issue.

And actually, there are two seals...

 

[J Hunter]

Your experience sounds typical, unfortunately. As a mechanic in a different trade, it's easy to see how these small diesel jobs get so badly mangled. Essentially deisels up to what you need for a '50 footer are tiny in the world of anyone who makes his living working on diesels. They are also in miserably inaccessible compartments for the most part and people run them for decades after a daily workhorse motor in a powerboat, truck or heavy equipment would have been totally overhauled or junked. The guys that talk to you at first like they will know exactly how to handle intermittent little old age related problems that aren't immediately obvious by their symptoms are opportunistic gypsy mechanics.

 

[higgs]

I am with Stu. Buy a book, roll up your sleeves, and dig in. It ain't rocket science. I have not had a pro touch my boat in 30 years or more. I am no genius, but I have learned I can do it on my own.

 

[kenn]

As a retirement "career" option, I've been looking into what I'd need to do to get into boat systems servicing, and leveraging my service experience in another field. I've struck up a friendship with a well-regarded yacht diesel mechanic in my area, and I've been working for him recently as sort of an informal apprenticeship on diesel maintenance. So I feel compelled to speak a bit in defense of mechanics.

- first, good basic mechanics of any stripe are getting harder to find because the era of the basic engine is just about over, with sailboats being the last refuge of the 'simple' gas or diesel engine . Modern car (and powerboat) engines are often more computer than engine, so engine repair has become very specialized, and little of that specialized auto training translates to old boat engines. And today's world values people who push money back and forth more than people who grow or build or make or fix things, so less people enter the hands-on fields. Would you do a 3-to 5 year apprenticeship in marine engines in order to earn maybe $25 an hour tops as a certified journeyman?

- sailboat engine repair just isn't a big field, so the engines (and the parts) are bloody expensive, and older parts are often hard to get ahold of. (Even so, it's not a very lucrative business) But customers still routinely go into shock when they are quoted for a repair. The prices, the long lead times for some parts, the $80 to $100 per hour labour rate... all these can make customers react anywhere from annoyed to hostile.

- the boat-owner is a tough client, often with a beloved 15 to 30 year old oddball engine that they think should be simple to repair. The owners seem to either be ignorant and neglectful, or sharp and knowledgeable (like you lot ); both can be difficult to deal with. Nuff said.

The answer seems to be the same as with any other service relationships - you need to seek out and find a good mechanic, and then you need to support them. Ask other boat-owners in your area for recommendations. As part of that relationship, consider giving that mechanic your spring and fall maintenance business - it gets them familiar with you and your boat, small issues can be caught sooner, and it's incentive for the good ones to stay in that business.

My 2 cents, anyway...

 

[Hermit Scott]

If you have plenty of money to pay mechanics, just repower the boat. Then buy a book on how to properly maintain a marine diesel, so you don't have "pin holes" rusting through a cover.
Other than that, start learning how each component works and how they all work together. If you have never worked on anything, buy a cheap torqe wrench to learn how it feels to properly tighten a bolt. Take pictures of everything before you start also.
This doesn't sound like that big a deal. I bet you could replace the water pump, dip tube and half a dozen other things yourself, for the same amount you would pay this unattentive "mechanic" to screw your engine up.
I always feel bad for people that post things like this on the forum. I wish I could help you my self.

 

[greg17887]

I had my new to me Catalina 30 hauled at a well known yard in San Diego to replace the engine thru-hull. The guys that did it did a good job. I then had it splashed and went below to check for leaks. Guess what I found? Someone had run the water inlet right to the valive cover blow by tube filling my engine with water. It was and old diesel and I was going to replace it when we got her home. The thing that got me was thay acted like I had done it.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I had my new to me Catalina 30 hauled at a well known yard in San Diego to replace the engine thru-hull. The guys that did it did a good job. I then had it splashed and went below to check for leaks. Guess what I found? Someone had run the water inlet right to the valive cover blow by tube filling my engine with water. It was and old diesel and I was going to replace it when we got her home. The thing that got me was thay acted like I had done it.

Small claims court is up to 10,000 in Texas. I hope it is similar there.
Did they do something about that?
I see you are in Portland and that was done is San Diego, so I will tell you I was laughing till I cried over that. Since you have had time to digest that.

 

[KD3PC]

Kenn and the group,

I appreciate your thoughts, but when a mechanic "presents" himself as a yanmar, westerbeke or cummins mechanic....he should not need three trips to the boat to familiarize himself with the engine.

Quite honestly he should know where the oil filter is, and be confident how to replace the fuel filter, air filter if there is one, etc. He should not tamper with the engine, causing it to lose prime on the water intake. He should have correct tools and filter wrenches. He should oil pads, paper towels and trash bags for disposal of dirty stuff. He should clean up after himself.

I am NOT going to pay someone top dollar to "learn" on my engine or boat, so in my case I do ALL the work now, myself... I did buy Casey's engine book, and it was well worth the price.

IF I am "learning" then I should tell the customer so, and adjust the labor rate to handle numerous trips to the boat, the NAPA store, the car, the phone, etc.

BY doing the work myself, I know more about my boat, have no one to blame when things screw up, I can adjust the quality, workflow, results as needed. And I always clean up after myself.

YMMV,
dave

 

[kenn]

Dave (kd3pc) - I agree with most of your expectations. Was this one incident with one mechanic, or a broader experience? If the "mechanic" was allegedly a factory-authorized service rep for those engines, did you report your experience to the manufacturer?

In this case, it definitely sounds like this guy was incompetent, or seriously inexperienced. Even I can recognise and change filters now

... He should have correct tools and filter wrenches. He should have oil pads, paper towels and trash bags for disposal of dirty stuff. He should clean up after himself.

...

IF I am "learning" then I should tell the customer so, and adjust the labor rate to handle numerous trips to the boat, the NAPA store, the car, the phone, etc.

On the other side - time is time, regardless of how spent. We always try to take precautions and to clean up after ourselves, but, sorry, the clock is still running on that. Not many people are happy about an extra 30 min @ $105/hr for us to wipe up.

Here's some of the other time-sucking experiences I've had in my short experience:
- occasionally the customer mis-identifies their engine when booking, so we show up with the wrong filters and bits
- water in the fuel tanks
- for spring commissioning, some owners hadn't even bothered to put the batteries on-board, or charge'em (and warn us about it so that we can bring a booster pack to start the thing). So a return visit is necessary
- many owners won't clear up around the companionway, remove cushions etc from the rear berths, clean out cockpit lockers... so we end up doing all that, and putting it back, after doing the messy filter changes
- we encourage the customer to be present for on-boat service - in fact my friend even teaches annual one-day hands-on clinics on boat diesel maintenance and troubleshooting, including a 60-page manual - but time spent onsite answering questions or advising is still on the clock.
- as noted earlier, in marine service there are more age-related issues to contend with (corrosion, electrolysis, dirt) and it seems that no two installations are alike...

Other considerations - during a routine service, if a problem's discovered, we have to scramble to fix it. It isn't possible to travel with a big parts inventory or manuals, so at least one phone call or shop visit is necessary. My friend has the in-depth knowledge to be able to go to a Canadian Tire or NAPA, talk to the counter people, and find a workable replacement for the oil pressure sensor in your elderly Westerbeke... or would you prefer he simply call Westerbeke and order it (at an inflated price, IF they have it) and with rush shipping tacked on, and a return visit when it arrives a week later?

If the sight of me removing your primary fuel filter with a big-ass pair of channellocks is unnerving, please look away...

(I hope both mechanics and boat owners are reading this thread)

[late add: aren't raw-water pumps self-priming?...so how did yours 'lose prime'? or have I misunderstood?]

 

[kenn]

...ouch

I had my new to me Catalina 30 hauled at a well known yard in San Diego to replace the engine thru-hull. The guys that did it did a good job. I then had it splashed and went below to check for leaks. Guess what I found? Someone had run the water inlet right to the valive cover blow by tube filling my engine with water. It was and old diesel and I was going to replace it when we got her home. The thing that got me was thay acted like I had done it.

... wow. (old Volvo?). Maybe the yard used a junior, or someone other than a mechanic to do the thru-hull, since it's a hull job?

 

[jimmcgee]

Hopefully even handed...

I can understand that working on boats is difficult. With cars there's an accepted standard for time and labor. Beat the book you make more money. Work slow and it's $$$ out of your pocket. As others have said there's more corosion in boats, and it's often difficult to get to what you're working on. That said mechanics don't always do a good job of explaining this to customers who expect a job to be done for a quoted price.

I typically do all my own work. But when I bought my boat down in Norfolk I couldn't complete everything myself before I had to bring the boat up the Chesapeake and up the Jersey coast. Two mechanics worked on the boat. They guy who did the rudder bearing and cutlass bearing did a good job.

I also wanted to have a guy in to pump the old fuel out of the tank and change the filters as the boat had been sitting for some time. When we got to the boat at 3am (long story) I shined a flashlight on the moter and saw new filters. I took the bag with the old filters out of the cockpit and tossed it in the dumpster. When we hit rough water in the Chesapeake Bay I discovered two things -- he'd never cleaned the tank and put in fresh fuel and he'd installed the wrong filters.

When I called the response was "my guy installed the filters he had on the truck, and if you bring the boat back down I'll take a look at the tank to see if my guy scrubbed it." I guess when the customer is now six days away you don't care :cussing: (and yes he had the right model number for the engine and filters).

I've mentioned this to other boat owners no one has ever been surprised.

Jim