And of course we all know that it wasn't Columbus or the vikings who discovered North America. It was people from what is now Asia.
Using the sun to precisly navigate, at night?
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This was probably the result of an "Aha" moment by some sailors playing with some natural crystals . If you cut the lid from a can and put a mark on it and float it in a dish of water it will turn and point the mark in the same direction every time. Then if you make the mark coincide with north you will have a crude magnetic compass. People haven't changed much in the last ten thousand years but their tools have gotten much better.
1492 - Yikes!!!
Ah, history. Yup, written by "The Winners." But really, really stupid when "non-facts" are still taught in schools.
"In fourteen hundred ninety two..."
Repeat after me...
What utter nonsense. And they're probably still doing it.
A few "real" facts certainly wouldn't hurt, would they?
I've read a LOT of history. Am now starting to read a lot of "future history" with Asimov and David Weber.
Pretty much the same "old good guys vs. bad guys" and "history tends to repeat itself" but if you haven't discovered David Weber, give him a try. The "Honor Harrington" series is superb, with many many books and sidebars to the series, and
his other multiple book series are also good.
Beats beating Columbus to death, doesn't it?
Ah, history. Yup, written by "The Winners." But really, really stupid when "non-facts" are still taught in schools.
"In fourteen hundred ninety two..."
Repeat after me...
What utter nonsense. And they're probably still doing it.
A few "real" facts certainly wouldn't hurt, would they?
I've read a LOT of history. Am now starting to read a lot of "future history" with Asimov and David Weber.
Pretty much the same "old good guys vs. bad guys" and "history tends to repeat itself" but if you haven't discovered David Weber, give him a try. The "Honor Harrington" series is superb, with many many books and sidebars to the series, and
his other multiple book series are also good.
Beats beating Columbus to death, doesn't it?
Uh...... fellas....... I don't think anyone from Europe discovered America. Check me if I'm wrong.... but there were many, many civilizations already there long before the scandinavians or Columbus. They just didn't know each other.
You see, they came the other way, across the land bridge that connected Asia and the North American continent over 10,000 years ago.
If you ask a Native American this question you will get a completely different perspective.
You see, they came the other way, across the land bridge that connected Asia and the North American continent over 10,000 years ago.
If you ask a Native American this question you will get a completely different perspective.
regarding the discovery of the Americas, as far as science and history is concerned, until something is written down and verified, it doesn't exist.
YOU may sail in an area 200 times a year, and know of that shoal just past the inlet, but until someone puts it on a chart it doesn't exist.
It's the same way with the Americas, many people knew it was there, but until it was placed on a chart, it didn't exist
Many recent insect/vegetable or animal discoveries have been well known to indemic people for centuries. Look to Homo floresiensis for example, considered to be folklore or fairy tales for years, until science discovered fossils of them. The gorilla, and celeocanth were the same way, people knew of them, but science didn't, so they didn't exist until 'discovered' and entered into the text books.
YOU may sail in an area 200 times a year, and know of that shoal just past the inlet, but until someone puts it on a chart it doesn't exist.
It's the same way with the Americas, many people knew it was there, but until it was placed on a chart, it didn't exist
Many recent insect/vegetable or animal discoveries have been well known to indemic people for centuries. Look to Homo floresiensis for example, considered to be folklore or fairy tales for years, until science discovered fossils of them. The gorilla, and celeocanth were the same way, people knew of them, but science didn't, so they didn't exist until 'discovered' and entered into the text books.
John, if you've read the latest anthropological evidence concerning the discovery of America, the earliest finds are on the Eastern seaboard of the U.S. that pre-date the Bering Strait migrations by several thousand years. It is archeological evidence of the Solutrean culture which originated in Southern France which is comprised of arrowhead/spearhead technology that was only present in Europe. The new theory is that the Europeans followed the glaciers during the last Ice Age in skin boats across the Atlantic camping along the way until they entered the North American Continent. The finds are ubiquitous along our Eastern Seaboard. The second area that pre-dates the Bering Strait migrations was in Kennewick, Washington where the famous Kennewick Man's remains were disovered along the Columbia River's shoreline. Kennewick Man was not Native American but European in his phisiogomy/skeletal structure. This created such an uproar among Native American tribes that the government hid or destroyed the skeletal remains and ordered the Army Corps of Engineers to cover the site along the river with rubble to prevent any further archeological study against the wishes of the scientific community who wanted the truth to be known. So, the Asiatic migration theory has been replaced and despite the protestations of Native American tribes, the earliest recorded history in North America was by Europeans. What does that do to Native American claims that they were the "originals?" I invite you to view some of the fascinating videos available on You Tube or read some of the excellent scientific studies on the above subjects. Best, Ron
Yes true, i didnt read the link, as i thought, that it was just about the way the vikings navigated, which they were known to use, rocks containing iron, which was used as a compass. After reading the article, i am not really convinced of the use of such a thing, even from the expirements the article talked about, they said they could see a change in the crystal in low light conditions, how relevant would that be for the purposes of navigation. Unless you know the precise time, the sun is not much good for navigation, other than telling you where east and west is, but if you have some form of compass, you already know where east and west are. Up until harris invented a clock that could be used at sea, longditude was found out by a lot of guess work, but latitude, was easy to find out but it was done using the pole star, If you do it using the sun, you need to know the time of meridian passage, but knowing that is no use to you, to you, unless you know the time at greenwich, or GMT, the sun is high in the sky over greenwich at 12 noon today, its high in the sky over my house at 12 noon local, which is 5pm GMT, so I am five hours from greenwich, which, is an hour, is fifteen degrees of arc, so i am 75 degrees west of greenwhich, Greenwich is on zero degrees, so i must be on 75 degrees, sorry made a mistake, forgot I was on summer time, so i have to add another hour of arc, making it six hours difference, six times fifteen, which puts me at 90 degrees west of greenwich, course, i would need to go out and take a sun sight to find the true meridian passage, because the sun is not going to be directly overhead of me at 12 noon local, but it will be directly overhead somewhere in my time zone at 12 noon, but with just sitting here, i have worked out my latitude to within four degrees of where I am, if u got my sextant out, i could get to almost my exact lattitude, but can only do that if i know the time are greenwich, and the vikings didnt know that.
John, when you define advanced or primitive civilizations, you must use a reference point(s). Did they possess advanced technology for their period? Were their social organizations conducive to success? Did they possess an artistic heritage? Was organzied education part of their culture? These are a few questions that must be addressed as well as: how did they compare to other known civilizations of their time? I think if you can address these issues without bias, your answer will be clear. Best, Ron
Their rudimentary compasses were not that accurate, So having a solar compass would have been very useful as a second tool to determine their position. Even without knowing the GMT knowing the position of the sun can be useful. I am not claiming they had this knowledge, but it is theoretically possible to take a magnetic compass bearing, compare to a solar compass bearing and determine your position if you know the date, and have a table of magnetic offsets to compare against. You will also need to have an understanding of the suns position and how it changes throughout the year (something man has understood for thousands of years).AtlanticAl said:
The only point I am trying to make is that to someone properly skilled it would be a useful additional tool to aid in navigation, and we all know not to go out and rely only on a single navigation tool (like GPS). We don't have any Viking navigation charts to reference, but maybe they had charted magnetic offsets and used the suns position each morning and night to calculate the offset for their current position as an additional reference item, really we just don't know how they used the stones, except that they did use them, which in itself means they were used to some degree of success.
As you said yourself, they would need to have an understanding of where the sun is going to be, at it moves between the tropic of cancer, and the tropic of capricorn, and to use the sun, as your only fixed point of navigation to sail between say norway and Iceland, if you did it six months later, you would have to know the exact difference in where the sun will be in order to correct your course. Why go to all that trouble, why you can just use the pole start, and keep your boat at a certain angle to the pole star.
The south sea islanders were terrific navigators, they could (and still can) sail hundreds of miles from island to island, and they just seem to know where they are going, i even saw a documentary where they got this south sea islander, to take their boat, a couple of hundred miles of ocean passage to another island, they had a gps, he had nothing, and he did it, and they have been doing that forevor, but, when the europeans saw it, they labeled it luck, and wouldnt accept their was any other form of navigation other than a compass a sextant, tables and maths, and the vikings may well have navigated in similar ways to the south sea islanders. Before the chronometer was invented, ships leaving europe, and heading for the americas, would say "south until the butter melts, then west" they would sail down the african coast until they saw the butter melting, and then go west. Their sail west would be kept on course, by measuring the angle of the pole star, and their longditude would be measured by distance from the ships log line, not the most accurate form of navigation, but it will get you there.
Stonehenge is enough evidence to prove that they understand the annual movement of the sun, and long before the Vikings navigated the north Atlantic. Before GPS there was no navigational tool that worked 99+% of the time. Loran only worked near the coastline, a sextant doesn't work when it is stormy, and everything else before that was a crapshoot as to exactly how accurate it was with compounding margins of error.AtlanticAl said:
Properly used with the right scientific data to compare against, a sun stone could have enabled them much more precise navigation than dead reckoning with compass bearings alone could do.
The pacific navigators know which stars rise above which islands. They don't follow a single star but follow a series of rising stars through each night. If you check the declination of the stars you can know where they will rise on the horizon. The sun being the largest navigational star in rises exactly east and sets exactly west during the equinox. During the summer solstice it rises far north of east and sets north of west during the winter solstice it rises south of east and sets south of west. That is because the declination of the sun is constantly changing and the declination of the stars is stable in the lifetime of a person.
Here's an interesting video showing the three possibilities for Viking sun stones. Best, Ron
http://youtu.be/yv5kkBCz78k
http://youtu.be/yv5kkBCz78k
The vikings were illiterate, they didnt put anything in writing, so it would be very difficult for them to rely on the sun for navigation, and i tend to think, why would they, because for thousands of years, people in the northern hemisphere, have used polaris for navigation, its allways in the northern sky, and the higher it is, means the further north you are, the lower it is, means the further south you are, only thing you cant work out from observations of polaris, is how far east or west you are, and you cant do that with a sun stone either, even if it lets you see the direction of the sun, an hour after its gone down, all it tells you is the direction west is, and anyone who goes to see, understands that when the sun goes down, the stars come up, if you see sirius, in early evening, and its on your beam, when you are heading for some island, and you know you are going the right dircetion, it will be on your beam the next evening, I am not saying you are wrong, but to me, seems like an overcomplicated way of doing things.
The other thing is, in the area of the north atlantic where the vikings spent a lot of time. The wind, and the waves, nearly always come from the west, I spent a lot of time at sea in that area, and you know you are heading west when you get into the north atlantic, just by where the waves are coming from, when you are punching into it, you are going west, when its on your stern, you are going east. You may get it coming from north of west, or south of west, but it will never be from due north, or from due south, which is why, if you look at every british city, the poor part of the city is always in the east, and the rich part, is always in the west, reason being, during the industrial revolution, the factories were built within the city, and the smoke from the factories blew from west to east, so the owners and wealthy people, built their houses on the west side of the city, and the poorest people, ended up on the east side of the city, a thing that still lives on today, in the uk, where the east end of a city, is still the poorest part of the city, and the west end, is the most desirable.
The other thing is, in the area of the north atlantic where the vikings spent a lot of time. The wind, and the waves, nearly always come from the west, I spent a lot of time at sea in that area, and you know you are heading west when you get into the north atlantic, just by where the waves are coming from, when you are punching into it, you are going west, when its on your stern, you are going east. You may get it coming from north of west, or south of west, but it will never be from due north, or from due south, which is why, if you look at every british city, the poor part of the city is always in the east, and the rich part, is always in the west, reason being, during the industrial revolution, the factories were built within the city, and the smoke from the factories blew from west to east, so the owners and wealthy people, built their houses on the west side of the city, and the poorest people, ended up on the east side of the city, a thing that still lives on today, in the uk, where the east end of a city, is still the poorest part of the city, and the west end, is the most desirable.
I think the facts would prove you wrong. While not literate in a way that most current folks think of being able to read and write, the Vikings did "write" on runes, and several have been found that detail the who and what of an epic battle. Icelandic research turns up quite a bit of "runic" inscriptions that we have yet to decipher.
They certainly were able to communicate, and I would posit that not being able to read and write are not exclusive to being intelligent and able to reason, as it is quite apparent the Vikings could and did. Perhaps they were just not interested in "documenting", much as today we have "do"ers and we have gamers.
Once the church arrived in the late 11th century, it is not entirely certain that they did not destroy much of the written records that may have been found and as history has taught us that the winners write the history, we must count on the catholic church to have documented things.
I don't think so. One has only to look at recent history to know that the Church often destroys the communications of a society to place theirs.
I didnt say they were not inteligent, i just said they were illiterate, you can be illiterate, but have a mensa IQ, but if you havent been taught to read and write, then you wont know how to. It just makes it a lot harder to navigate, if you have no written records, it means, someone who has been somewhere, has to describe the passage and give directions to someone who hasnt been, verbaly. Their is place in the extreme north west of scotland, called Cape Wrath, I dont know if this is true, but someone told me, it was named by the vikings, and wrath, meant, "go left" so when you sail north along the scottish coast, you then turn left, for a bit of rape and plunder.
When i worked at sea, at first, i was going worldwide, and everything was done with charts, when you were heading to a port the ship had never been to, the charts and the pilot book would arrive before we left the port we were at, and the chart of where we were, was always on the chart table, the course would be set out on it, and we would follow that course, marking the chart, at noon every day, (other marks would go on it too, but the noon one was the most important, it measure our distance, noon until noon) When i changed to working on the coast, they never looked at a chart, they new where they were going, they had been doing it for forty years, they new what the land looked like, the thing they used, was tide tables, they were always wanting to know what the tide was doing, because they could cross places at high tide, they had to go around at low tide, they knew how long the passage up a river would be with the tide against them, as opposed to the tide being with them, their was places with strong currents, that they would time it to reach at slack water, when they could just go through. I say this, because if you look on a map, at everywhere the vikings went, it was nearly all coastal. They sailed along the coast of europe, into the mediteranian, to north africa, and into the middle east, and north into the black sea, they sailed up the Rhine, they sailed to the uk, and coasted round it, sailing up to london, where destroyed london bridge which blocked them, they had Dublin in ireland as a center for trade, they held most of the islands around the uk, on a deal that par of the uk they coud sail their boats around was theirs, they even claimed parts of the uk, by dragging their boats overland, then back into the sea. The hop across the north sea, to the uk can be done easily it would be difficult to miss the uk. Everything else, they could have done by hugging the coast, apart from, reaching iceland, and green land, and it was Eric Red that discovered greenland, which was even a great feat for the vikings, which is probably whey we know his name, and the reason he went there, was he was banished from Iceland. Other than the Iceland Greenland thing, most of their navigation was coastal, even their ships show that, they were shallow draft flat bottomed, for sailing up rivers, and onto beaches. you will never know how many boats they lost heading into the western Atlantic to see if their was anything out there,
When i worked at sea, at first, i was going worldwide, and everything was done with charts, when you were heading to a port the ship had never been to, the charts and the pilot book would arrive before we left the port we were at, and the chart of where we were, was always on the chart table, the course would be set out on it, and we would follow that course, marking the chart, at noon every day, (other marks would go on it too, but the noon one was the most important, it measure our distance, noon until noon) When i changed to working on the coast, they never looked at a chart, they new where they were going, they had been doing it for forty years, they new what the land looked like, the thing they used, was tide tables, they were always wanting to know what the tide was doing, because they could cross places at high tide, they had to go around at low tide, they knew how long the passage up a river would be with the tide against them, as opposed to the tide being with them, their was places with strong currents, that they would time it to reach at slack water, when they could just go through. I say this, because if you look on a map, at everywhere the vikings went, it was nearly all coastal. They sailed along the coast of europe, into the mediteranian, to north africa, and into the middle east, and north into the black sea, they sailed up the Rhine, they sailed to the uk, and coasted round it, sailing up to london, where destroyed london bridge which blocked them, they had Dublin in ireland as a center for trade, they held most of the islands around the uk, on a deal that par of the uk they coud sail their boats around was theirs, they even claimed parts of the uk, by dragging their boats overland, then back into the sea. The hop across the north sea, to the uk can be done easily it would be difficult to miss the uk. Everything else, they could have done by hugging the coast, apart from, reaching iceland, and green land, and it was Eric Red that discovered greenland, which was even a great feat for the vikings, which is probably whey we know his name, and the reason he went there, was he was banished from Iceland. Other than the Iceland Greenland thing, most of their navigation was coastal, even their ships show that, they were shallow draft flat bottomed, for sailing up rivers, and onto beaches. you will never know how many boats they lost heading into the western Atlantic to see if their was anything out there,
There are many ways to communicate knowledge besides writing as we know and use it. I have no doubt that all peoples of the middle ages were able to keep count, tally and figure even if they could not write. Even today I know men that can barely write their name but they are successful carpenters and can build as true a roof as any engineer. They can figure how much and what size lumber they will need and how many shingles they will use and how long it will take them and what the price shall be.
Remember when you are in the high latitudes the sun rises and sets well to the north and the days are very long during the summer. If you can determine where sunrise or sunset will be then you can determine where noon will be and therefore south. But your thinking has to change to fit you knowledge of the time and place.
Remember when you are in the high latitudes the sun rises and sets well to the north and the days are very long during the summer. If you can determine where sunrise or sunset will be then you can determine where noon will be and therefore south. But your thinking has to change to fit you knowledge of the time and place.
There are several theories using multiple origins of migration. I am aware of the theory you are describing based on different construction of arrow and spearheads dating back 12,000 years. There have also been discoveries in Chile of villages dating back 30,000 years. In these village shell/garbage pits have been found skeletal remains of deep water fish suggesting these villagers were not just sailors but sailors that sailed far from shore. As the evidence piles up, it seems people came to America from many different locations and the 10,000 year land bridge is to simplistic and it seems the first settlers were much more than just hunters and gatherers.
I don't know "Rognvald", I don't think I have any bias for either Pacific Islanders or Vikings. Do you?
There are few places in the world today that haven't been touched by 20th century life and tools. But prior to the 15th century most people on the islands were in stand alone cultures. However it was the need for trade that caused people to purposefully cross wide water.
If fishermen from widely separated islands met in open water they would most likely have talked and traded. It doesn't take genius to figure out that if we can meet in the middle and still return home then we can cross to the far side without traveling any farther.
When men explored the western areas of north america they always looked back on the route that they had taken to see what it would look like on the way home.
I often say that before some one should attempt an ocean crossing they should sail straight away from their home port for twenty-four hours and then sail back and then for forty-eight hours and so on, that way they learn what the ocean feels like near shore and well off shore in deep ocean. If you can sail off shore for two weeks and then sail home. You can sail all the way across. You will know what the night sky looks like each night and where the sun rises each morning. If you sail west you know that the sun rises over your stern and at mid day is on your beam and it sets over your bow..
If fishermen from widely separated islands met in open water they would most likely have talked and traded. It doesn't take genius to figure out that if we can meet in the middle and still return home then we can cross to the far side without traveling any farther.
When men explored the western areas of north america they always looked back on the route that they had taken to see what it would look like on the way home.
I often say that before some one should attempt an ocean crossing they should sail straight away from their home port for twenty-four hours and then sail back and then for forty-eight hours and so on, that way they learn what the ocean feels like near shore and well off shore in deep ocean. If you can sail off shore for two weeks and then sail home. You can sail all the way across. You will know what the night sky looks like each night and where the sun rises each morning. If you sail west you know that the sun rises over your stern and at mid day is on your beam and it sets over your bow..