Use Of Soap To Wash Boats Prohibited?

[Rick D]

I am reading PS and there is a comment in a reply to a letter that Washington State Department of Ecology and Clean Water Act prohibits the use of any soap or detergent to wash boats? Geesh, if that is the real deal, that's even worse than California. I hope that doesn't catch on. I am amazed that these agencies can run unfettered in some of these matters. While in Catalina this week, there were postings of a hearing/filing with the California Coastal Commission to add a finger to a dinghy dock, which was only to be attached to another finger and was otherwise free-floating. Absurd on the face of it.

 

[Calif. Ted]

I've often wondered when someone would get upset over bubbles in the marina and do something illogical about it.
Is it the dock at 2 harbors ? I thought that was a done deal?

 

[Ross]

is it alright to wash your car in the parking lot?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Rick, poke around www.48north.com the magazine and read some letters and stories about the eco-Nazis giving a marina, who is doing everything they can to comply with green practices, a really hard time. Sometimes bureaucracy works at both ends. Remember, there are more trees in WA than CA, so those are the real tree huggers up there!

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

The CWa prohibits, among other things:
(A) any substance designated pursuant to(A) any substance designated pursuant to section 311(b)(2)(A) of this Act, (B)
any element, compound, mixture, solution, or substance designated pursuant to section 102 of the
Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and Liability Act of 1980, (C) any
hazardous waste having the characteristics identified under or listed pursuant to section 3001 of the
Solid Waste Disposal Act (but not including any waste the regulation of which under the Solid
Waste Disposal Act has been suspended by Act of Congress), (D) any toxic pollutant listed under
section 307(a) of this Act, and (E) any imminently hazardous chemical substance or mixture with
respect to which the Administrator has taken action pursuant to section 7 of the Toxic Substances
Control Act.

You won 't find "soap" specifically but the above is all inclusive in sub-paragraph (A).

In practical terms, you will never see EPA enforce this provision on a boater washing his boat, however, most states adopted similar language as a prerequisite to Federal funding which means some states may selectively enforce this.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

It's not the state or any WA state agency...

It's a group of environmental thugs called the Puget Soundkeepers Alliance who've taken it upon themselves to decide what the language in the CWA means and who have been suing marinas and boatyards for what they deem to be "non-compliance."

This article the April issue of a publication called 48 North does a pretty good job of describing what's happening.

http://content.yudu.com/A1n9my/48NA...ferrerUrl=http://www.48north.com/articles.htm

 

[kenn]

I don't know this area very well, but I hope that the EPA would issue guidelines with soap ingredients that are permissible, due to low toxicity and fast degradation in water, and the marketplace would produce cleaners to meet this standard. Maybe this has already happened?

Til then... c'mon, wash your boat on the hard, or try something like white vinegar. There's enough friggin crap in the water already...

 

[Mike1956]

I've been using baking soda to wash the topsides of my boat while it's in the water for weveral years now. I use a sponge and a plastic bristle brush and lake water as a rinse. The baking soda is mildly abrasive and ecologically acceptable.

 

[Rick D]

Are not white vinegar and baking soda murder on plexiglass and wax finishes?

 

[KD3PC]

Sure let's just ask the EPA for guidance...they are such competent people as regards boats.

Rather let's tell them to stay out of recreational boating. Period.

How long do you thing the public would put up with their meddling, were this collector cars, drag racing, wood work, or other hobby that generates some other waste? Given all the stuff that a homeowner puts on his lawn, car, kitchen, house...?

And the eco terrorist are just as bad. They have no interest in compromises or solutions, just who is "right" or wrong based on THEIR notions.

And Kenn, you are free to come down anytime and mask my 42 of boat, that is never on the hard (and BTW, where do you think that runoff goes anyway) - so that the soda and vinegar do not dissolve the plex and surface....and be sure to bring pounds of soda, and many gallons of vinegar as the surface is quite large...

And if I recall my HS chemistry correctly, vinegar is an acid...and therefore may irritate some ants or termites, or other ground dwelling critter, or god forbid a cat drink it...just might take his breath away.

Keep the EPA and the Gov't out of boating...just name one thing they have done to promote or encourage boating...

 

[themadscientist]

can't be any worse than scrubbing pelicans with dawn and dumping "dispersant" in an oil spill. Stupid eco-kooks.

 

[kloudie1]

The really absurd thing is that all the soap and stuff that is put into the city sewer systems does not typically get taken out of the water before the water goes back into the ocean or bay or lake or river.. TONS more soaps, other surfactants, drugs, oils, etc. than what comes from washing boats.. But the problem is that you can see all those rich guys washing their boats and see a few bubbles in the water .. not saying we should be careless, just saying that we are visible and so we get "help" at being green..

 

[tommays]

In places like Lake Geroge NY you have not been able to wash a boat for 15 or 20 years and have to have a grey water tank

FWIW even with a lot of boating it stays really CLEAN

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Sure let's just ask the EPA for guidance...they are such competent people as regards boats.

Rather let's tell them to stay out of recreational boating. Period.



Keep the EPA and the Gov't out of boating...just name one thing they have done to promote or encourage boating...

Dave
Having worked at EPA for some 30 years, I can understand your criticism but also know that most of the staff are diligent, hard-working and competent people. Without them and the EPA, many of our rivers would still be various colors of the rainbow, the Houston Ship Channel et al would still catch fire periodically and our kids would still be breathing lead from gasoline fumes. None of this is to say EPA has done a great job with boating sources but it's unfair to cast the entire organization and its 22000 employees with such a broad brush criticism. Without environmental regulatory enforcement, most of us would not be doing much boating or swimming.

Having said that, I recall a few arguments I had with our group who established and implemented the NDZ program. The over-riding issues included at least some benefit, was an easy, minimally expensive fix and could be implemented quickly - all value-added to the environment.

One might argue the degree of benefit(s) to be derived from environmental regulatory intervention but that is a subjective judgment which, by definition, varies among individuals.

More to the issue - a running hose into the water is theoretically a violation of the CWA.

Anybody know why?

 

[alexco38]

Does it mean if you just use water to rinse the bird dropping off the deck you are technically in voilation?

They should enforce the birds from crapping near water due to rain water runoff. Better yet, no raining near water. ;-)

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Does it mean if you just use water to rinse the bird dropping off the deck you are technically in voilation?

They should enforce the birds from crapping near water due to rain water runoff. Better yet, no raining near water. ;-)

No. Nothing to do with what gets washed off. The act of discharging fresh water into salt water is considered a contaminant discharge in that fresh water is toxic to marine critters. So, to exaggerate what Rick D's original post points out, the statute prohibits washing a boat in salt water.

Obviously, only an idiot would ever try to enforce this...

 

[KD3PC]

Don

not meaning to disparage...or be personal...but I have yet to find where their "authority" stems from, especially on issues such as NDZ, treated effluent, surface run-off, cooling water discharge, etc...yet THEY have allowed tankers (oil included) to wash out their holding tanks for years (at least since the mid 70's)...

latest EPA...THEY regulate drinking water, but the FDA regulates bottled water...and the two of them can not agree on what day of the week it is....

Again nothing personal, but if they simply enforced the laws on the books and quit doing the DHS window dressing stuff...we could all enjoy

and although I do not know why a running hose is in violation...I would guess the same twisted thinking that allows Chesapeake Bay Foundation to build in the 100' buffer, but not a private landowner, or the EPA rule that makes you do an "impervious material" study, but precludes you from building directly over the water, where the water that was destined for the river, now falls on your roof and in to the water...sorry IMHO they have missed the boat way too many times to be defended in these latest silly things...

dispersant, that is toxic elsewhere or use by XX...but is OK for BP, then recalled..
prohibiting treated effluent, that is treated to a greater standard than the shoreside
pumpouts to a septic system, or shoreside system that is known to have problems
allowing cities to dump raw sewage, for years (at least since the 70's)
etc, etc, etc

dave

 

[sailingsilkeborg]

Re: Use Of Soap To Wash Boats Prohibited?
Regardless of what Ecology might say about it, do any of you know a brand of soap that you would recommend as safe and biodegradable, knowing that it would end up in the water?

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Many, many years ago in Avalon on Catalina Island the beaches were found to have elevated fecal bacteria levels. Of course, it was immediately assumed by the local authorities that the source of this pollution was the large boating population. They instituted a strict no discharge policy over 20 years ago. Upon entering, the Harbor Patrol boards your boat to place fluorescent dye in the toilet and instructs you to flush it with him present. He then motors around your boat looking for leakage before assigning you a mooring. Any discharge during your stay is abundantly evident and you are immediately banished from the harbor for at least a year (I think it's a year, but for sure it's for quite a while). The dye policy is as fool proof a no discharge program as can be imagined.

A couple of weeks ago the annual beach report card was published and once again, as has always been the case, Avalon received an 'F' based on (again) seriously elevated fecal bacteria levels. That's over 20 years with virtually zero contribution from the boaters and the problem persists.

Boyz, it ain't the boaters and the history of this bay bears it out. Still, in the face of this evidence, the authorities continue to operate in the belief that the visiting boaters are the problem. Go figure.

Although not precisely on topic, my point is the boating community is an easy target when looking to place blame for local pollution. kd3pc Dave's points are well taken.

 

[KD3PC]

Silk and the group

IF we believe the EPA and the USDA, as genuinely being interested in our safety, then....read these

http://www.induscoltd.com/products.html
http://www.epa.gov/dfe/pubs/projects/formulat/sdsi.htm
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/4083fact.pdf

somewhere or the other, they have been tested??!! and found of low enough toxicity to not harm us or creatures...and they break down quickly in to their often benign beginnings.

That being said, I am sure that someone has the chemistry and boating experience to qualify or quantify a decent soap product that balances cleaning ability with pollution/toxicity...

just because there are bubbles, does not mean there is a problem...

thanks
dave