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universal 11HP adequate?

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May 21, 2006
321
catalina 25, 30 montauk / manhattan
considering buying a '78 cat 30 with a universal 11HP. in reading some owner reviews one complaint seemed that this wasn't ideal for the boat. comments?
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Hey DL,
NO, the 11 hp is really weak if you will be sailing where there is current. If not, it should not be a problem.

On the other hand considering the year of your boat, if the engine has not been rebuilt recently, I would be less optimistic. The old theory was 2 horsepower per ton for sailboats. I have no idea who started this but I asure you it's minimal.

I have a 1980 and the orig. engine was 11 HP. I couldn't get out out of my own way sailing the left coast of florida. I did a changeout to the 3M20A and it's OK but sometimes (storms, bad current), I still wish I had more power at times.

I also purchased my boat as a fixer upper. I will never do that again.
The money you save upfront will be spent to just trying to make the boat right. Again, Unless your lake sailing this might not be a problem.

If your REALLY into sailing, I would look around some more. Just my opinion, but i've been there and done that.

Any questions, email me at: captnron@tampabay.rr.com.

Good luck in buying a boat.........
C'ron
 
May 21, 2006
321
catalina 25, 30 montauk / manhattan
thanks..

yes now concerned. really have my eye on 2 and both only have the 11. wondering what more HP would go for to upgrade.
 
May 21, 2006
321
catalina 25, 30 montauk / manhattan
hopefully going to vary.. a lot in protected peconic bays of eastern long island but also block island sound up to RI.. and new york harbor which has quite a current
 
May 21, 2006
321
catalina 25, 30 montauk / manhattan
thanks.. will try tomorrow. (going to try to figure out cost to upgrade the engine)
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
considering buying a '78 cat 30 with a universal 11HP. in reading some owner reviews one complaint seemed that this wasn't ideal for the boat. comments?
This is not meant as as argument, but as counterpoint ... with a smile ... :)

It is after all a SAILboat. 11HP is more than enough to get in and out of a slip you cannot sail to.

11HP is more than enough to provide a "kick" while motorsailing.

11HP is more than enough to charge batteries.

Before thinking about a more powerful engine, consider the engine that the boat was designed around ... the Atomic 4

At first glance you see Atomic 4 at 30HP vs 11HP ... and think "under powered"

But the truth is that there is no A4 installation that allows the engine to reach full power. 1500 - 1700 RPM is all you get ... about 12-16 HP

Now 11HP sounds reasonable. :)

If you can motor at 5 knots and load a diesel to 70-80%, the engine is happy. Diesels don't take kindly to low loads. It might sound like the engine is working too hard, but 80% load is a good target.

11HP will *sip* fuel ...

The same $$$ for a bigger engine will buy new SAILS ...

Did you want a trawler to sail now and then or a sailboat that you use the engine now and then?

If you have good sails and little HP you develop different skills than if you have old sails and much HP.

Under powered? Why are you motoring instead of sailing or motorsailing?

So many people worry about props and engines it makes me wonder why they bought a SAILboat at all!

As you might guess, I have an old boat with the 35 year old Atomic 4. I have used the OEM prop, a three blade, and now have a folding prop. I also have great sails ... and prefer sailing to motoring.

If I was forced to motor more than I sail I'd be concerned. If your boating area requires you to motor for long periods in adverse conditions you might find 11HP to be too little.

Model 5411 Diesel - In 1977 the Model 5411 was introduced. It was a 31 cu in, 11 hp 2 cylinder raw water cooled diesel, based on the Kubota Z-500 block, and fitted with a Hurth transmission. The 5411 was built from 1977 to 1982. Approximately 2,900 were sold.
The first 1335 C30's had the A4, then the next 2900 had the 11HP diesel. That is more than half of the C30's ever built.

IMO newer sail boats are over powered, turning them into funny looking trawlers ... :) not a surprise when you see them motoring more than they sail ...

Catalina 30's sail great, they don't motor worth a damn ... no matter what engine is shoehorned into them. They cannot swing a large enough prop to make them good motorsailers.

I'd have the engine checked out to make sure it can make it's rated 11 HP and not worry about power unless the engine if worn out.

Again, not meant to rile anyone up. Just my opinion!

Buy sails, not bigger diesels!

Randy
 
May 21, 2006
321
catalina 25, 30 montauk / manhattan
hey randy,

understand what you're saying re sail vs motor. just not fun when your're in NY harbor and the wind dies, can take a very long long time getting home.
 
Feb 26, 2004
21,500
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
It's the same SOG and STW thing again

If the engine has the torque to get you to, say for lack of a better selected speed, hull speed, then the ONLY issue is the current, regardless of where you are.
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
hey randy,

understand what you're saying re sail vs motor. just not fun when your're in NY harbor and the wind dies, can take a very long long time getting home.
Yep. When I was in Canada my dock was miles from open water in English Bay. To get there required going through the Second Narrows, passing through the inner harbour (no sailing allowed) then through Fist Narrows under the Lions Gate. Depending on current the time to get to English Bay was between 1.5 hours and never since the currents in the narrows run faster than the boat can go under power or sail.

If faced with those sorts of conditions and logistics engine power does become an issue ... in that case I'd want all the power I could get and a great prop. 11HP might be on the weak side.

R
 
Nov 28, 2008
35
Catalina 30 Northport, NY
I have had the 5411 in my boat for twenty-nine seasons, which I used very often and while ADEQUATE, it definitely lacks guts. It is worthless banging into tall square waves with a forty knot wind without putting up a jib. IF you do hang a jib, it will beat into those forty knot winds. It has a top end of around six knots with a 14-11 prop. I have a Martec elliptical folding prop.
If buying a boat with the 5411, MAKE SURE the little plate has been replaced near the oil pump. This is a plate separating oil from salt water, a leftover from the Kubota 500 engine's power takeoff or something.
 
Jun 30, 2009
26
Catalina 30 Cundy's Harbor
If buying a boat with the 5411, MAKE SURE the little plate has been replaced near the oil pump. This is a plate separating oil from salt water, a leftover from the Kubota 500 engine's power takeoff or something.
I also just bought C30 (1980) with a 5411. Can you take a picture of this plate? or reference the P/N? Something I'm going to want to look at this spring.

Thanks
 
D

dan nahant

Cruising

The Catalina 30 is a terrific cruiser. If you wish to get get to certain mooring areas or anchorages by nightfall or if guests on a schedule are aboard, a reliable engine that can get close to hull speed is appropriate. The area between Hells gate and Buzzards bay
is tidal and has significant currents. The river areas around New Haven and Saybrook also have real currents. If you are running with the current you need to outrun it to have flow past the rudder to have any effective helm response. So the power is needed not just against the current but also when traveing with the current. Current is strongest where sails are most limited, that is narrow channels. 11 HP is just too little. The price difference is not enough in MHO, or enjoy the savings and get the gasser.
 
May 23, 2004
117
Catalina 30 Stockton, CA
I have a 1981 C-30 with the 5411 and, although I had reservations when I bought it, it's been a good little engine for me. I sail primarily in the California Delta with occasional trips to sail in SF bay and haven't had any problems, however our currents are relatively mild.

Personally, I'd prefer the 5411 to the A4 since I like the idea of Diesel over gas but, if I could afford a newer boat, I'd look for one with a bigger Diesel (I think '83 or newer). The other factor to consider is that the older boats, like mine, have raw water cooling, which, in a saltwater environment, can mean corrosion issues in the engine itself as opposed to being confined to a relatively inexpensive heat exchanger.

I wouldn't consider buying with the idea of re-powering unless I could get a great deal on an engine and could do all or most of the work myself. Otherwise, the cost of re-powering would be more than the incremental cost of a newer boat with the larger Diesel, in which case you'd also have the benefit of a newer boat. The exception to this would be if you were to buy a boat with a known bad engine at a rock-bottom price.
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
DL,

Well it looks as if the jury is in. Half for keeping the 5411, the other half for re-powering. So. when it comes down to it it seems to depend on your sailing/area wants, needs, & styles.

1. sailors that don't have to fight strong currents seem overall satisified with the 5411.

2. sailors fighting current & sea conditions all agree that a more powerful engine/correct prop is the way to go.

The 5411's raw water cooled engine had a very good interior cladding that held up well to salt weather as confirmed by some responses noting their engine age. My orig. 5411 resold with the new seals & paint job is powering some boat today I'll bet.

So you just have to ask yourself: do I pick door # 1 or #2?

c'ron
 
D

dan Nahant

Dont Repower

The cost of repowering will not meet any reasonable test of economic value. An engine rebuild for an A4 may be a good idea if a survey indicates compression issues. A new engine in an existing boat will mean the cost of the engine plus control and engine mount work. That cost will not be recouped by higher value of the boat on resale. The M25XP and the 3" heat exchanger are more costly now, but a delivery from anywhere from Boothbay to Annapolis is well within reach. The incremental danger of gasoline is reasonable with prudent maintennace, proper blower proceedures and a good nose. Be sure to get a good evaluation of rigging and sails.
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Hey dan,
It's NOT always about cost or resale value. On this site you will find people who have owned & maintained their boat for many years. It's about YOUR quality & comfort in sailing. Your opinion is personal probably tuned to your type of sailing. That's not what the thread was asking. How many different sailing locations, and conditions are there? Save your money....and your opinions, mr. guest. try being helpful, not personal..........

c'ron
 
D

dan nahant

Viewpoint

Ron, aren't all opinions personal? otherwise they would be facts. One fact is that the original poster stated he will be sailing in an area with above 4 knot currents.
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Dan,
Obviously you took exception to my comment. I don't wish to squabble but you still missed the point of this thread.
1. The theme was whether the 5411 was adequate. Not the economic costs; not economic value for resale.

2. There was no mention of engine condition relating to compression testing/an or rebuliding.

Dlewis812 was wanting comments on power being adequate & if not is a more powerful engine the best choice.

You could have let him know what you have boatwise, enginewise & the type of area/conditions you sail in. This would have been valuable info to help him along.

This is not an argument but a sugestion in giving Dlewis812 feedback with which to base his decision.

In the future, your replies should go toDlewis812. Afterall it his thread.

c,ron
 
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