I'm pretty new to sailing. I've been studying and reading about the sport for a good while now -- long before deciding to buy my boat. I found reading about it and experiencing it are just a little bit different. Last Monday I encountered some modest 10-12 knot winds on the lake for the first time, and I have to say, when it started heeling over, I got a little uncomfortable. Now I've read enough about the theory of such things to realize that capsizing my 25.5 on a lake in 12 knot winds is probably not possible, but a little reassurance from some experienced folks sure would make me feel better. Basically, if I did exactly the abosulte wrong thing to do, I mean worked really hard on screwing up, what's the worst that could happen (besides running into to someone/something).
Uncomfortable
- Thread starter Eric14536
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work in stages
Reading all the information on the 25.5 is a little scary. They talk about it being tender. It is tender at the dock but really firms up when sailing . This is what my wife and I have been doing for the last month on our lake First we experience light wind and flew all the sheets we had. 2 to 5 knots When it it 8 knots we worked with the headsail. Getting to know the boat and see what all the talk was about. Last weekend we had winds in the 12 to 15 knot range. Worked with the headsail first. Then worked with a reefed main. Then full head sail and main. Head sail is only about 105% Trim the headsail and control the heel with mainsail and traveler. Enjoy the boat. Sure does sail well. Clif
Reading all the information on the 25.5 is a little scary. They talk about it being tender. It is tender at the dock but really firms up when sailing . This is what my wife and I have been doing for the last month on our lake First we experience light wind and flew all the sheets we had. 2 to 5 knots When it it 8 knots we worked with the headsail. Getting to know the boat and see what all the talk was about. Last weekend we had winds in the 12 to 15 knot range. Worked with the headsail first. Then worked with a reefed main. Then full head sail and main. Head sail is only about 105% Trim the headsail and control the heel with mainsail and traveler. Enjoy the boat. Sure does sail well. Clif
Sport, sailing is not a sport.
The wind is howling, the boat is heeling, the lines are creaking and the adrenalin is rushing; have another beer.
The wind is howling, the boat is heeling, the lines are creaking and the adrenalin is rushing; have another beer.
Keep it moving forward
When I sailed my Hunter 170, which everyone said was a tender boat, as long as I had head way I almost had to force the boat to capsize. However, friends had capsized the boat and turtled because of an al jibe or some other mistake. The point being always be aware of keeping headway. If your boat gets over powered, as long as its making head way, it will probably head up into the wind, flatten out and your off again. I sail a Hunter 23 now, have had the rails in the water and when the gusts hit, the boat heads up into the wind and flattens out. I don't have much choice as the weather helm it too much for me to fight. Every boat in the mid range size is called tender at some time or another. Thats because its a monohull and everyone seems to want to sail flat!. Get an multihull. For me, if the boat isn't healing at 20 degrees or more there is not enough wind. But the boat will stiffen out and you can sail for hours healing at 30 or 40 degrees. To me thats fun. Brian
When I sailed my Hunter 170, which everyone said was a tender boat, as long as I had head way I almost had to force the boat to capsize. However, friends had capsized the boat and turtled because of an al jibe or some other mistake. The point being always be aware of keeping headway. If your boat gets over powered, as long as its making head way, it will probably head up into the wind, flatten out and your off again. I sail a Hunter 23 now, have had the rails in the water and when the gusts hit, the boat heads up into the wind and flattens out. I don't have much choice as the weather helm it too much for me to fight. Every boat in the mid range size is called tender at some time or another. Thats because its a monohull and everyone seems to want to sail flat!. Get an multihull. For me, if the boat isn't healing at 20 degrees or more there is not enough wind. But the boat will stiffen out and you can sail for hours healing at 30 or 40 degrees. To me thats fun. Brian
A few basic guidelines
Here are a few tips that should help you gain some confidence as the wind builds: 1) raise your mainsail first, then the jib. If the wind gets too high and the heel becomes uncomfortable, lower/roll up the jib. If it's still too windy for you, tuck a reef in the main. Better yet, put the reef in before you leave the dock. You should be able to sail comfortably in 20 kt. of wind with just a reefed main. 2) the mainsail is far easier to control than the jib. You need one hand for the main, but two hands and a winch for the jib. Even if you have crew, the helmsman should control both the mainsheet and tiller (see 4) below). 3) If you feel like the boat is being overpowered, ease the sheets and spill some wind. Sailing with the lee rail under only looks good in paintings... it sucks when you're in the cockpit. It's OK to sail with luffing sails or a big bubble in the main, as long as you have the boat under control. 4) avoid cleating the mainsheet in heavy air or gusts. Instead, balance the helm with the mainsheet. When the wind gusts, you will feel the need to pull up on the tiller to keep the boat on course. This is called "weather helm" which is actually good in small doses. However, if steering starts to feel like work, ease the sheet a bit. You will be surprised at how the boat will settle down and the helm will get lighter. Of course, as the gust passes, you have to sheet back in, but that's all part of being a sailor. 5) learn how to read the water, so you can see the gusts coming (the water surface will usually get darker and more ruffled). You want to be ready for a gust so you can respond when it arrives (see 4. above) 6) on smaller boats, moving crew weight to the windward rail or aft (or both) will help reduce uncomfortable weather helm. With a tiller extension you can steer while seated up on the cockpit coaming. 7) if you find that it's still too much like work, stop the boat and reduce sail area (see 1. above). The idea is to have fun, not a workout. 8) learn how to heave-to. It's easy to do, but each boat behaves differently when hove-to, so you may have experiment a bit to find what works for you. Here's the maneuver: a) make sure that there are no other boats nearby and that you have plenty of room to leeward (boats drift when hove-to b) head up onto a close-hauled course on port tack c) push the tiller to leeward to come about, but don't ease the jib sheet. d) as the boat comes over onto starboard tack, ease the mainsheet and smartly push the tiller to the new leeward side. The boat will come upright, glide to a stop and begin drifting off to leeward. It also leaves a slick to windward that somehow reduces wave height. Lash the tiller to keep it in position. The the boat will remain stable for as long as you want. Some boats drift and others cut little scallops in the water, i.e., first they start to head up under the influence of the main and rudder, but then the main loses drive, the boat slows and the backwinded jib pushes the bow away from the wind. Then the process repeats itself. You can adjust the angle that the boat lays to the wind by adjusting the tiller and mainsheet angles. Here's the really cool part: you're still under sail on starboard tack, so technically you have the right-of-way. If you heave-to on port tack, you have to give way to other boats, which is a pain if you stopped for lunch. e) to resume sailing, unlash the tiller, uncleat the jib sheet, let it blow through the foretriangle to the opposite side and sheet in the main. You can sheet in the jib after the boat starts moving. Sorry this ended up being so long, but I think these simple boathandling skills are essential, so I tried to explain as well as I could. Happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Here are a few tips that should help you gain some confidence as the wind builds: 1) raise your mainsail first, then the jib. If the wind gets too high and the heel becomes uncomfortable, lower/roll up the jib. If it's still too windy for you, tuck a reef in the main. Better yet, put the reef in before you leave the dock. You should be able to sail comfortably in 20 kt. of wind with just a reefed main. 2) the mainsail is far easier to control than the jib. You need one hand for the main, but two hands and a winch for the jib. Even if you have crew, the helmsman should control both the mainsheet and tiller (see 4) below). 3) If you feel like the boat is being overpowered, ease the sheets and spill some wind. Sailing with the lee rail under only looks good in paintings... it sucks when you're in the cockpit. It's OK to sail with luffing sails or a big bubble in the main, as long as you have the boat under control. 4) avoid cleating the mainsheet in heavy air or gusts. Instead, balance the helm with the mainsheet. When the wind gusts, you will feel the need to pull up on the tiller to keep the boat on course. This is called "weather helm" which is actually good in small doses. However, if steering starts to feel like work, ease the sheet a bit. You will be surprised at how the boat will settle down and the helm will get lighter. Of course, as the gust passes, you have to sheet back in, but that's all part of being a sailor. 5) learn how to read the water, so you can see the gusts coming (the water surface will usually get darker and more ruffled). You want to be ready for a gust so you can respond when it arrives (see 4. above) 6) on smaller boats, moving crew weight to the windward rail or aft (or both) will help reduce uncomfortable weather helm. With a tiller extension you can steer while seated up on the cockpit coaming. 7) if you find that it's still too much like work, stop the boat and reduce sail area (see 1. above). The idea is to have fun, not a workout. 8) learn how to heave-to. It's easy to do, but each boat behaves differently when hove-to, so you may have experiment a bit to find what works for you. Here's the maneuver: a) make sure that there are no other boats nearby and that you have plenty of room to leeward (boats drift when hove-to b) head up onto a close-hauled course on port tack c) push the tiller to leeward to come about, but don't ease the jib sheet. d) as the boat comes over onto starboard tack, ease the mainsheet and smartly push the tiller to the new leeward side. The boat will come upright, glide to a stop and begin drifting off to leeward. It also leaves a slick to windward that somehow reduces wave height. Lash the tiller to keep it in position. The the boat will remain stable for as long as you want. Some boats drift and others cut little scallops in the water, i.e., first they start to head up under the influence of the main and rudder, but then the main loses drive, the boat slows and the backwinded jib pushes the bow away from the wind. Then the process repeats itself. You can adjust the angle that the boat lays to the wind by adjusting the tiller and mainsheet angles. Here's the really cool part: you're still under sail on starboard tack, so technically you have the right-of-way. If you heave-to on port tack, you have to give way to other boats, which is a pain if you stopped for lunch. e) to resume sailing, unlash the tiller, uncleat the jib sheet, let it blow through the foretriangle to the opposite side and sheet in the main. You can sheet in the jib after the boat starts moving. Sorry this ended up being so long, but I think these simple boathandling skills are essential, so I tried to explain as well as I could. Happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Thanks!
I think my biggest problem was just being overwhelmed with sensory information and trying to remember/apply everything I've read. I'm looking forward to gaining comfort through experience. So to rehash the main points here: 1. start with a little sail area, and work up to experiment with the boat 2. maintain headway 3. the worst that could happen is spilling the beer 4. slide the traveler a little to leeward and play with the mainsheet to control the degree of heel 5. if it becomes too much work, heave to and have another beer. 6. I'm *supposed* to get that little adrenaline rush when the boat starts heelin' and the wind starts howlin' and the lines start creakin' Thanks!
I think my biggest problem was just being overwhelmed with sensory information and trying to remember/apply everything I've read. I'm looking forward to gaining comfort through experience. So to rehash the main points here: 1. start with a little sail area, and work up to experiment with the boat 2. maintain headway 3. the worst that could happen is spilling the beer 4. slide the traveler a little to leeward and play with the mainsheet to control the degree of heel 5. if it becomes too much work, heave to and have another beer. 6. I'm *supposed* to get that little adrenaline rush when the boat starts heelin' and the wind starts howlin' and the lines start creakin' Thanks!
learning
Eric, a lot of good info on these other responses. best thing I can say to learn is to sail and gradually work up to points of sail that require more tune. 1. turn into the wind and raise the main. 2. sail a close hauled course and let your main sheet out slightly to spill a little wind as you experiance any gusts. Keep in mind you can always turn yourself into the wind slightly to reduce the heal as well. some gusts will roll you over to 30-40 degrees. 3. if the wind is 10mph tighten up the sail. if the wind is 8 knots or less give a little more curve to your sail. 4. 20-30 degree heal is going to feel good to you after a few times. 5. once you begin to feel a little comfortable with your abilities, then push the envelope a little more to heal her over a little more. 6. After that start working on sailing a beam reach with control and so forth to a broadreach. 7. if the wind is over 12 knots. Reef down. In reefing you can actually gain better control with greater speed out of your boat. I am not sure how the 25.5 will respond to heavy gusts as my 240. my 240 has enough weather helm in the mast that once it heals over past 45 degrees the rudder will not offset the boat from turning into the wind and righting. hope this helps ya. Michael
Eric, a lot of good info on these other responses. best thing I can say to learn is to sail and gradually work up to points of sail that require more tune. 1. turn into the wind and raise the main. 2. sail a close hauled course and let your main sheet out slightly to spill a little wind as you experiance any gusts. Keep in mind you can always turn yourself into the wind slightly to reduce the heal as well. some gusts will roll you over to 30-40 degrees. 3. if the wind is 10mph tighten up the sail. if the wind is 8 knots or less give a little more curve to your sail. 4. 20-30 degree heal is going to feel good to you after a few times. 5. once you begin to feel a little comfortable with your abilities, then push the envelope a little more to heal her over a little more. 6. After that start working on sailing a beam reach with control and so forth to a broadreach. 7. if the wind is over 12 knots. Reef down. In reefing you can actually gain better control with greater speed out of your boat. I am not sure how the 25.5 will respond to heavy gusts as my 240. my 240 has enough weather helm in the mast that once it heals over past 45 degrees the rudder will not offset the boat from turning into the wind and righting. hope this helps ya. Michael
Just a little heel
For some real hairy moments, take a look at this link. Not 12 or 13 knot winds, but it sure looks like a "fun" ride.
For some real hairy moments, take a look at this link. Not 12 or 13 knot winds, but it sure looks like a "fun" ride.
Normal Response
Eric, Lots of good advice below. I too am a fairly new sailor and I think the discomfort you felt with the heeling is common to new sailors, me included. I'd suggest taking as ASA sailing course. I hadn't sailed in about 40 years when I decided to buy the boat I'd always dreamed about so I took the basic keelboat course offered locally. Best money I ever spent. Refreshed all those things I'd learned sailing with my uncle in a 21 foot wooden boat as a kid. Basically a keelboat won't turn over except under very high wind conditions. Essentially if the heel becomes to much the wind will spill off the sails and you'll come into the wind. As somebody said you might spill your beer. If you get uncomfortable just head up. You can also ease the mainsheet or move the traveler out if you have one. And find an ASA school and take the course.
Eric, Lots of good advice below. I too am a fairly new sailor and I think the discomfort you felt with the heeling is common to new sailors, me included. I'd suggest taking as ASA sailing course. I hadn't sailed in about 40 years when I decided to buy the boat I'd always dreamed about so I took the basic keelboat course offered locally. Best money I ever spent. Refreshed all those things I'd learned sailing with my uncle in a 21 foot wooden boat as a kid. Basically a keelboat won't turn over except under very high wind conditions. Essentially if the heel becomes to much the wind will spill off the sails and you'll come into the wind. As somebody said you might spill your beer. If you get uncomfortable just head up. You can also ease the mainsheet or move the traveler out if you have one. And find an ASA school and take the course.
Eric
Seriously, there are some bad things that can happen. I doubt it's a concern on your lake, but where I live the water in some lakes at some times of year can be cold enough that a man overboard can die if you don't fetch him quickly enough. Accidental gybes are dangerous. That's when you're going deep down wind and one way or another, the wind catches the lee side of the main and it slams over to the other side. You can break the rigging, or take off somebody's head with the boom as it crosses over. The wind on my lake comes and goes. When it stops, I often sit with the sails still up and wait for wind. The slightest onset of breeze can cause the boom to slam over if the main isn't cleated or if I'm not paying attention. On my lake, such a breeze doesn't always ripple the surface of the water. When I first got into sailing, I thought the fine points of sail trim were about getting maximum power and speed. I soon realized that more often, it's about knowing how to _depower_ the sails to keep the boat and passengers safe and comfortable (while I'm still trying to go as fast as I can!). I highly recommend some sort of "basic keelboat" training from a proper sailing school. Personally, I wouldn't dream of reading some books and buying a 25 foot boat and giving it a go on my own, but maybe that's just me. I'm in Canada, but I've seen mention of US Sailing and the American Sailing Association (ASA). ...RickM...
Seriously, there are some bad things that can happen. I doubt it's a concern on your lake, but where I live the water in some lakes at some times of year can be cold enough that a man overboard can die if you don't fetch him quickly enough. Accidental gybes are dangerous. That's when you're going deep down wind and one way or another, the wind catches the lee side of the main and it slams over to the other side. You can break the rigging, or take off somebody's head with the boom as it crosses over. The wind on my lake comes and goes. When it stops, I often sit with the sails still up and wait for wind. The slightest onset of breeze can cause the boom to slam over if the main isn't cleated or if I'm not paying attention. On my lake, such a breeze doesn't always ripple the surface of the water. When I first got into sailing, I thought the fine points of sail trim were about getting maximum power and speed. I soon realized that more often, it's about knowing how to _depower_ the sails to keep the boat and passengers safe and comfortable (while I'm still trying to go as fast as I can!). I highly recommend some sort of "basic keelboat" training from a proper sailing school. Personally, I wouldn't dream of reading some books and buying a 25 foot boat and giving it a go on my own, but maybe that's just me. I'm in Canada, but I've seen mention of US Sailing and the American Sailing Association (ASA). ...RickM...
ASA Course
I actually took an ASA course down in Florida a few years ago. There were four of us + a hired captain/instructor on a 43 foot hunter for a week. No really big wind though; plus I didn't get a whole lot of wheel time. Anyway, those seven days were my only sailboat time, and I thought, hell, I'm certified, I'm gonna buy a boat... We really didn't get the education we should have, but that's a story for another post. I've thought about retaking the course on a smaller boat with a little more one on one time, but I'm hoping I'll be alright with just a little more practice.
I actually took an ASA course down in Florida a few years ago. There were four of us + a hired captain/instructor on a 43 foot hunter for a week. No really big wind though; plus I didn't get a whole lot of wheel time. Anyway, those seven days were my only sailboat time, and I thought, hell, I'm certified, I'm gonna buy a boat... We really didn't get the education we should have, but that's a story for another post. I've thought about retaking the course on a smaller boat with a little more one on one time, but I'm hoping I'll be alright with just a little more practice.
You're on the right track Eric
Eric, You did the right things, actually! Better than most, you took a course, you read up and then you tried things out on your own. The only problem was that you were on a nice big honkin' boat and you probably didn't even need the gimbaled beer holders!
Don't worry, the butterflies are normal, mistakes even more so. I'd sailed up to 22' before we got our h-26. I was all pumped on our first outing with the new boat (albeit a bit scared too.) The wind was up to about 10 knots - no worries. We raised the main, the wind gusted to about 20 knots and switched to our beam - suddenly the boat is heeling like crazy and we're not even moving. The admiral hears her Dad's voice "when in trouble, just let go of the tiller" (which isn't bad advice on a sunfish, but sorta sucks on a 26' boat.) We learned two very important things that day - 1) A h-26 can spin out - we did a full 180 in about 0.45 seconds; and 2) RELEASE THE FREAKING MAINSHEET before raising the sail!!! Never forgot number 2. Have fun! Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer
Eric, You did the right things, actually! Better than most, you took a course, you read up and then you tried things out on your own. The only problem was that you were on a nice big honkin' boat and you probably didn't even need the gimbaled beer holders!
Don't worry, the butterflies are normal, mistakes even more so. I'd sailed up to 22' before we got our h-26. I was all pumped on our first outing with the new boat (albeit a bit scared too.) The wind was up to about 10 knots - no worries. We raised the main, the wind gusted to about 20 knots and switched to our beam - suddenly the boat is heeling like crazy and we're not even moving. The admiral hears her Dad's voice "when in trouble, just let go of the tiller" (which isn't bad advice on a sunfish, but sorta sucks on a 26' boat.) We learned two very important things that day - 1) A h-26 can spin out - we did a full 180 in about 0.45 seconds; and 2) RELEASE THE FREAKING MAINSHEET before raising the sail!!! Never forgot number 2. Have fun! Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer25.5 Hunter stability
Hi Eric, I have the same boat as you (hull number 100) and have sailed her for the last 4 years. The boat is rather stable and even in 10-15 knots wind you will have a hard time getting your butt wet (nice freeboard for her size). Just easy off and reef some once you get north of 6.5 (rated hull speed), even though I (and others) have had our 25.5. above 8 knots, it is not advisable since the rigging strains seriously at this speed. Except for a possible grounding, the possibility that you will actually capsize in this boat, even with serious mistakes and accidental gybes in high vind, is very, very, very small (I have been there The risk is really getting hit by a boom, or falling overboard. As a base rule for the 25.5, I reef on a reach when the wind hits 10-12 knots, mostly by reducing the Genoa to a Jib (rolling F.) When the wind hits over 12 knots I either take in the Jib, or reef the main. On a haul, you can add stand a bit more, but not much... Another good ruel-of-thumb is to stay at or below the rated hull speed..
Hi Eric, I have the same boat as you (hull number 100) and have sailed her for the last 4 years. The boat is rather stable and even in 10-15 knots wind you will have a hard time getting your butt wet (nice freeboard for her size). Just easy off and reef some once you get north of 6.5 (rated hull speed), even though I (and others) have had our 25.5. above 8 knots, it is not advisable since the rigging strains seriously at this speed. Except for a possible grounding, the possibility that you will actually capsize in this boat, even with serious mistakes and accidental gybes in high vind, is very, very, very small (I have been there
The risk is really getting hit by a boom, or falling overboard. As a base rule for the 25.5, I reef on a reach when the wind hits 10-12 knots, mostly by reducing the Genoa to a Jib (rolling F.) When the wind hits over 12 knots I either take in the Jib, or reef the main. On a haul, you can add stand a bit more, but not much... Another good ruel-of-thumb is to stay at or below the rated hull speed..More comments
Sorry guys but after reading some of the later responses, I feel compelled to comment. Call me a wet blanket if you want but I think 28 years of sailing has taught me a few things: 1) Rookie sailors should forget the beer while under way. I know some people were kidding and some may think I'm some kind of self-righteous, overreacting killjoy for saying so, but learning to sail (especially by yourself) is not the time to be worried about spilling your beer. For the record, I've had enough Red Stripe aboard to trade for fresh grouper and all the ice I want in out of the way places without denting the supply too badly. 2) ASA Basic Keelboat school is not for raw rookies, as both Eric and Hugh noted. As Eric pointed out, you may not get a lot of wheel time, which is what most rookies seem to want. You will learn a lot more if you go to ASA school with some skills. 3) The beam reach is the easiest point of sail on which to learn. Why? Because it's the fastest point of sail, you sail back and forth across the wind on a straight course so the apparent wind stays fairly constant, the boat is nearly level and easy to control. Ease sheets and she glides to a stop, sheet in and you're off again, somewhere in between and you control the boatspeed to a surprising precise degree. Sail trim is not critical, visibility from the helm is good and it's an ideal point of sail for learning how to steer using the sails and crew weight. Once you have mastered the beam reach, it's easy to transition to close-reaching and then to close-hauled. 4) Several people mentioned the boat taking care of itself by heading up when heeled excessively by a sudden gust. If you're aware of what the wind is doing and about to do, the likelihood of a "sudden" gust becomes low. You can actually time a gust and turn it into serious acceleration rather than heading up or allowing the boat to heel uncontrollably. 5) Several people mentioned sailing while heeled 20 to 30 degrees or more. My H23 is fastest and most comfortable at about 15 degrees of heel. Your H25.5 should be similar. Don't be seduced by pictures of Open 60s and other race boats sailing at high heel angles. They HAVE to do that because their hulls are so wide and flat it's the only way to reduce wetted area and drag. 6) At high angles of heel, the rudder becomes less effective at keeping the bow off the wind, i.e., opposing weather helm. It will actually be trying to force the bow down into the water, which is wasted effort. Adding more rudder angle to try and maintain course does little to help and in fact a high rudder angle creates huge amounts of drag. Eventually the rudder will stall and the boat will round up uncontrollably. However, if you pay attention to what the boat is telling you, many such problems can be avoided. 7) Several good books on basic sailing instruction do exist, of which the ASA Basic Keelboat text Sailing Fundamentals is pretty decent. So is "Sailing For Dummies". I believe West Marine sells both (see link below). Happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
Sorry guys but after reading some of the later responses, I feel compelled to comment. Call me a wet blanket if you want but I think 28 years of sailing has taught me a few things: 1) Rookie sailors should forget the beer while under way. I know some people were kidding and some may think I'm some kind of self-righteous, overreacting killjoy for saying so, but learning to sail (especially by yourself) is not the time to be worried about spilling your beer. For the record, I've had enough Red Stripe aboard to trade for fresh grouper and all the ice I want in out of the way places without denting the supply too badly. 2) ASA Basic Keelboat school is not for raw rookies, as both Eric and Hugh noted. As Eric pointed out, you may not get a lot of wheel time, which is what most rookies seem to want. You will learn a lot more if you go to ASA school with some skills. 3) The beam reach is the easiest point of sail on which to learn. Why? Because it's the fastest point of sail, you sail back and forth across the wind on a straight course so the apparent wind stays fairly constant, the boat is nearly level and easy to control. Ease sheets and she glides to a stop, sheet in and you're off again, somewhere in between and you control the boatspeed to a surprising precise degree. Sail trim is not critical, visibility from the helm is good and it's an ideal point of sail for learning how to steer using the sails and crew weight. Once you have mastered the beam reach, it's easy to transition to close-reaching and then to close-hauled. 4) Several people mentioned the boat taking care of itself by heading up when heeled excessively by a sudden gust. If you're aware of what the wind is doing and about to do, the likelihood of a "sudden" gust becomes low. You can actually time a gust and turn it into serious acceleration rather than heading up or allowing the boat to heel uncontrollably. 5) Several people mentioned sailing while heeled 20 to 30 degrees or more. My H23 is fastest and most comfortable at about 15 degrees of heel. Your H25.5 should be similar. Don't be seduced by pictures of Open 60s and other race boats sailing at high heel angles. They HAVE to do that because their hulls are so wide and flat it's the only way to reduce wetted area and drag. 6) At high angles of heel, the rudder becomes less effective at keeping the bow off the wind, i.e., opposing weather helm. It will actually be trying to force the bow down into the water, which is wasted effort. Adding more rudder angle to try and maintain course does little to help and in fact a high rudder angle creates huge amounts of drag. Eventually the rudder will stall and the boat will round up uncontrollably. However, if you pay attention to what the boat is telling you, many such problems can be avoided. 7) Several good books on basic sailing instruction do exist, of which the ASA Basic Keelboat text Sailing Fundamentals is pretty decent. So is "Sailing For Dummies". I believe West Marine sells both (see link below). Happy sailing. Peter H23 "Raven"
missing a point guys
As several of the posts indicated, the experience of heeling is scary at first. It sounds like Eric has done his homework and has a good intellectual understanding of sailing. That provides little comfort in the reality that the wind is tipping you over and you're not sure if that's ok. I remember my first outing on my boat. My wife and I had received what amounted to an orientation sail from the seller, and then we were on our own. While admittedly, we were on a small lake and always close to shore, that became the problem when we were running out of lake on a downwind run and every attempt to turn caused a alaruming amount of heel. Eventually we remembered to let out the main sheet and came about in good shape - and with the gut level understanding that heeling is ok, the boat will handle it. However, the real lessons came from sailing with others. In our case, I crewed for experience racers, and just day sailed my own boat, applying what I learned on other people's boats. For the next several outtings, draft an experienced sailor for your boat or crew for the experienced sailor. You will so realize that heeling a sailboat is not only safe, its fun. Happy sailing. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
As several of the posts indicated, the experience of heeling is scary at first. It sounds like Eric has done his homework and has a good intellectual understanding of sailing. That provides little comfort in the reality that the wind is tipping you over and you're not sure if that's ok. I remember my first outing on my boat. My wife and I had received what amounted to an orientation sail from the seller, and then we were on our own. While admittedly, we were on a small lake and always close to shore, that became the problem when we were running out of lake on a downwind run and every attempt to turn caused a alaruming amount of heel. Eventually we remembered to let out the main sheet and came about in good shape - and with the gut level understanding that heeling is ok, the boat will handle it. However, the real lessons came from sailing with others. In our case, I crewed for experience racers, and just day sailed my own boat, applying what I learned on other people's boats. For the next several outtings, draft an experienced sailor for your boat or crew for the experienced sailor. You will so realize that heeling a sailboat is not only safe, its fun. Happy sailing. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
My heel
I found that my Hunter 25.5 likes to be heeled at 20 to 25 with no problems and no reduced speed. Up to 30 speed on increases slightly. Beyond has no real speed increase. Just my boat
I found that my Hunter 25.5 likes to be heeled at 20 to 25 with no problems and no reduced speed. Up to 30 speed on increases slightly. Beyond has no real speed increase. Just my boat
Heeling
Eric: Some good thoughts in this thread, but just had to respond to Peter's comments. His take is the most cogent, reasonable, concise statement I've ever read about sailing. Thanks Peter for helping to put the whole discussion in proper perspective. If I spent a month working on it I doubt I could have put it better.
Eric: Some good thoughts in this thread, but just had to respond to Peter's comments. His take is the most cogent, reasonable, concise statement I've ever read about sailing. Thanks Peter for helping to put the whole discussion in proper perspective. If I spent a month working on it I doubt I could have put it better.
I'm a 25.5 owner too
Wow! I can see by this thread that opinions vary along with the boats. Eric's question is one I've been putting off asking for some time now... I guess it's a man thing LOL I've been sailing for 6 years now and this is my second boat. As this is my 2nd full season I've owned and sailed my 1984 25.5, I too wonder what I'm doing wrong... or is most people I talk to full of you know what? Or perhaps different boats really do vary that much? My last boat sure didn't sail like this... So let's find out. I have a new mainsail with a 150% genoa. I've taken the ASA keelboat course plus sailed on various boats from 19-30 ft. My H25.5 moves along just fine with minimum wind. However, when the wind picks up to 10+ knots I start the reefing process. I've tried several, i.e. reef main, reef genoa, genoa fully furled up, etc. All different combinations. What happens is I can't reach 5 knots (let alone hull speed) without getting 30+% heel, too much for the admiral and I. I read many books and try different sail adjustments. Unless the mail is flapping like crazy, which I don't like, I can't make decent headway. I even look at other boats and they'll have full mail/jib with little heel. Something just isn't right but heck if I can figure it out. I keep thinking it's just the type boat. PLEASE,,, let's hear from some H25.5 owners. What are you experiencing? What is your H25.5 doing? Thanks! Bob "still learning the ropes"
Wow! I can see by this thread that opinions vary along with the boats. Eric's question is one I've been putting off asking for some time now... I guess it's a man thing LOL
I've been sailing for 6 years now and this is my second boat. As this is my 2nd full season I've owned and sailed my 1984 25.5, I too wonder what I'm doing wrong... or is most people I talk to full of you know what? Or perhaps different boats really do vary that much? My last boat sure didn't sail like this... So let's find out. I have a new mainsail with a 150% genoa. I've taken the ASA keelboat course plus sailed on various boats from 19-30 ft. My H25.5 moves along just fine with minimum wind. However, when the wind picks up to 10+ knots I start the reefing process. I've tried several, i.e. reef main, reef genoa, genoa fully furled up, etc. All different combinations. What happens is I can't reach 5 knots (let alone hull speed) without getting 30+% heel, too much for the admiral and I. I read many books and try different sail adjustments. Unless the mail is flapping like crazy, which I don't like, I can't make decent headway. I even look at other boats and they'll have full mail/jib with little heel. Something just isn't right but heck if I can figure it out. I keep thinking it's just the type boat. PLEASE,,, let's hear from some H25.5 owners. What are you experiencing? What is your H25.5 doing? Thanks! Bob "still learning the ropes"- Status