On small high performance dinghies years ago we went to mid-boom sheeting because we could bend the mast, alter mainsail draft and control leech twist. It was a major development. With more powerful vangs we could refine those attributes - not replace the method of achieving them. One also has to look at the angles of pressure and consider the compression on the rigs. Mainsheets and vangs present very different forces on the mast. Fractional and masthead rigs behave differently and so the sail controls are also used somewhat differently. My MacGregor 65 was a fractionally rigged cutter with hydraulic backstay, vang and baby stay. I sailed it so differently from my H37C with the masthead rig, soft vang, end boom sheeting. I never want to see the H37C mast bending. Totally different boat, very different trimming and equipment needs. B&R rigs are of course another animal and in-mast furers, which I happen to like, change things again. Some boats I need to use the vang a lot. Others, it makes little difference. Some are totally sensitive to the traveler, others more subdued. I suspect the designers and riggers of the newer boats have found the most convenient compromises for their designs and rigs.
Traveler
- Thread starter Quoddy
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Getting back to basics rather than the ultra tuning of today's racer, pleasure sailboats have been sailed for decades without travelers and pretty well. True, maybe they weren't squeezing out that last 1/10th of a knot though.
The old oversimplified rule of thumb for sail shape when going to weather in varying conditions was to move the traveler to windward and ease the mainsheet in light conditions, move it to leeward and harden up in heavy conditions. Traveler and mainsheet adjustments were on a sliding scale (pun intended) for conditions in between.
The old oversimplified rule of thumb for sail shape when going to weather in varying conditions was to move the traveler to windward and ease the mainsheet in light conditions, move it to leeward and harden up in heavy conditions. Traveler and mainsheet adjustments were on a sliding scale (pun intended) for conditions in between.
You need both. I have done a lot of racing and offshore sailing and when racing it gives you that fine tuning capability. Also when you are running in heavy weather you can control the rolling of the boat buy adjusting the position of the traveller. Try it, it can make a huge difference. Also when you are on the wind in heavy weather you can break the boom with too much vang. Look at the length of the traveller on the Volvo 70's.
Just to stir the pot, I sail a Wharram tiki 26: 5' gaff-rigged, boomless main with a luff sleeve. The sail is, and must be, cut dead flat. The luff sleeve rotates to develop draft.
My "traveler" as designed is a 1/2" line across the sterns, with the mainsheet shackled to a block running on this line. Smaller lines attached to the block pull the mainsheet to weather or leeward. I'm currently setting up a double mainsheet system: here is a mock-up at my slip...
I have new fiddle blocks and a double-sheet swiveling cleat arriving soon to actually set up for sailing, but playing at the dock was promising. The plan is to set the angle of attack, and have a better ability to flatten the main as necessary. Traveler and vang all rolled into one! Well, sorta. How's that for a twist? 
My "traveler" as designed is a 1/2" line across the sterns, with the mainsheet shackled to a block running on this line. Smaller lines attached to the block pull the mainsheet to weather or leeward. I'm currently setting up a double mainsheet system: here is a mock-up at my slip...
Elements of rig tuning relative to travelers:
Mainsail twist: vang and/or mainsheet tension
Boom position: traveler and/or mainsheet tension
Mast bend: vang and/or mainsheet tension and/or shroud tension and/or backstay tension
Headsail luff sag: backstay and/or shroud tension and/or mainsheet tension
So ... if you are cruising and not looking for that last fraction of a tenth of a knot, you can get away with not having a traveler. Likewise, if you are racing (usually a dinghy) and can adjust shroud tension underway (like in the International 14 class) you can get away with not having a traveler.
There are a few boats that benefit from having the boom a little above centerline, of course without twisting the entire leech to windward of centerline -- typically these are boats with large overlapping genoas and relatively small mainsails compared to the genoa.
Being able to have the lower 1/3 of the main near centerline and the upper 1/3 twisted off is a good technique for sailing in light air, especially if the water is a little "lumpy." This is hard to do without a traveler.
So ... if you don't care if you sail 5.0 knots or 5.2 knots, you don't need all those sail controls. If you do like your sailing machine to sail as efficiently as possible, you need all the sail-shaping options available.
Mainsail twist: vang and/or mainsheet tension
Boom position: traveler and/or mainsheet tension
Mast bend: vang and/or mainsheet tension and/or shroud tension and/or backstay tension
Headsail luff sag: backstay and/or shroud tension and/or mainsheet tension
So ... if you are cruising and not looking for that last fraction of a tenth of a knot, you can get away with not having a traveler. Likewise, if you are racing (usually a dinghy) and can adjust shroud tension underway (like in the International 14 class) you can get away with not having a traveler.
There are a few boats that benefit from having the boom a little above centerline, of course without twisting the entire leech to windward of centerline -- typically these are boats with large overlapping genoas and relatively small mainsails compared to the genoa.
Being able to have the lower 1/3 of the main near centerline and the upper 1/3 twisted off is a good technique for sailing in light air, especially if the water is a little "lumpy." This is hard to do without a traveler.
So ... if you don't care if you sail 5.0 knots or 5.2 knots, you don't need all those sail controls. If you do like your sailing machine to sail as efficiently as possible, you need all the sail-shaping options available.
This discussion could very easily degenerate into the tired racers vs. cruisers debate. There's room for both here as long as one doesn't advocate superiority over the other.
Well this discussion has provided a lot of entertainment this morning, but wind's up and I got to go sailing... ahoy mates
Just go back to Quoddy's question ...
He asks why all these prominent _larger_ boats are moving away from travelers. I gave an answer (Roger actually provided the original reason if anybody would care to remember). All of the 'experts' have not come up with anything yet ... Don, I'm listening ... .
Todd gives a good, valid reason.
FourPoints, I understand your answer and it makes sense for boats the size of ours. I question if the models that Quoddy is talking about have large hydraulic rigid vangs, which would be more powerful than the kind that we could install on our boats.
For the record, I have a traveler, I know how it is used, and I modified it last year (following our earlier discussion) so that I have line control rather than pin-stops so that I can use it more effectively. I also have a boom vang, but it is the soft variety. So I understand completely how the traveler, mainsheet and vang interplay.
Going back to Don ... I can tell that you know how the strings are pulled to create the sail shape and angle of attack that you desire. What baffles me is that you do not seem to have any understanding or concept of the mechanics involved. All your 'concepts' are based on having ropes to pull the sail into position.
Do you understand how a modern hydraulic vang works these days? When new mechanics are introduced, some of the old rules are going to get tossed out. You obviously don't understand my point that when a rigid vang has the ability to fix the vertical angle of the boom, the mainsheet no longer works as an integrated system with the vang.
FourPoints may be right, in that even the large hydraulic vangs don't have that power. I don't know that answer and would welcome a response because I openly admit that my argument is predicated on that assumption.
Also, I know that you write that draft_position_ is affected by the mainsheet. But you don't mention draft depth. When we had these discussions before, RichH definitely said that draft depth is increased when the mainsheet is eased and he used that argument to base his position that a sail is powered-up when easing the sheet (therefore it is better to ease the traveler in a gust). This came out when some of us were refuting the position that twisting-off the main increases power. As we all should know, increasing draft depth (in a windy condition) typically increases power. Many of us were agreeing that twisting-off the top of the sail reduced power. Rich was implying that the increased power from draft overrides the reduction from twisting off, particularly because of the pendulum effect of the top of the mast in a heavy seaway.
I asked you for your position on this but you did not reply ... I'm still waiting. I would appreciate it if you didn't go thru your ABC's everytime these discussions come up and opened your mind to demonstrate some knowledge instead. If that sounds harsh ... so be it. I don't like being treated like a fool.
He asks why all these prominent _larger_ boats are moving away from travelers. I gave an answer (Roger actually provided the original reason if anybody would care to remember). All of the 'experts' have not come up with anything yet ... Don, I'm listening ...
.Todd gives a good, valid reason.
FourPoints, I understand your answer and it makes sense for boats the size of ours. I question if the models that Quoddy is talking about have large hydraulic rigid vangs, which would be more powerful than the kind that we could install on our boats.
For the record, I have a traveler, I know how it is used, and I modified it last year (following our earlier discussion) so that I have line control rather than pin-stops so that I can use it more effectively. I also have a boom vang, but it is the soft variety. So I understand completely how the traveler, mainsheet and vang interplay.
Going back to Don ... I can tell that you know how the strings are pulled to create the sail shape and angle of attack that you desire. What baffles me is that you do not seem to have any understanding or concept of the mechanics involved. All your 'concepts' are based on having ropes to pull the sail into position.
Do you understand how a modern hydraulic vang works these days? When new mechanics are introduced, some of the old rules are going to get tossed out. You obviously don't understand my point that when a rigid vang has the ability to fix the vertical angle of the boom, the mainsheet no longer works as an integrated system with the vang.
FourPoints may be right, in that even the large hydraulic vangs don't have that power. I don't know that answer and would welcome a response because I openly admit that my argument is predicated on that assumption.
Also, I know that you write that draft_position_ is affected by the mainsheet. But you don't mention draft depth. When we had these discussions before, RichH definitely said that draft depth is increased when the mainsheet is eased and he used that argument to base his position that a sail is powered-up when easing the sheet (therefore it is better to ease the traveler in a gust). This came out when some of us were refuting the position that twisting-off the main increases power. As we all should know, increasing draft depth (in a windy condition) typically increases power. Many of us were agreeing that twisting-off the top of the sail reduced power. Rich was implying that the increased power from draft overrides the reduction from twisting off, particularly because of the pendulum effect of the top of the mast in a heavy seaway.
I asked you for your position on this but you did not reply ... I'm still waiting. I would appreciate it if you didn't go thru your ABC's everytime these discussions come up and opened your mind to demonstrate some knowledge instead. If that sounds harsh ... so be it. I don't like being treated like a fool.
With the advent of powerful 'rigid vang' systems the traveller can be now relegated into secondary status .... or removed entirely. A rigid vang can perform both the functions of the traveller and the old 'stretchy' rope-vang systems.
Especially on boats with large physical geometries (ie.: booms at large distances above the deck) that allows the vang/boom connection to be more towards the midboom, the need for traveller usage diminishes.
Its more effective to control both functions of traveller + rope-vang with a RIGID vang ..... preventing the boom from 'rising' and at all angles of the boom away from the boats centerline. The traveller only controls effectively the upwards motion of the boom when the boom is about 'halfway to the rail', once beyond this distance limit, the traveller becomes quite ineffective in preventing 'boom rise' ... and the newer Rigid Vangs can accomplish BOTH functions. That stated, the rigid booms systems and the vang-boom connections must be 'built like bull' to do this and the vang-boom connection should be towards the center of the boom.
So the traveller is beginning to disappear as the use of super-strong rigid vangs allow VANG SHEETING ..... or holding the boom at a constant vertical angle to the mast and prevent the boom from 'rising'. With VANG SHEETING all one has to do is release the mainsheet and the boom swings across at a constant angle with respect to the horizon - the rigid vangs do the simultaneous job that was formerly done by both the traveller AND the vang (and the topping lift).
The only perceived problem in sans-traveller set-ups is - with a traveller in super-light conditions one can always pull the traveller to the windward side (and significantly easing the mainsheet) to allow the boom to rise in reaction to 'unload' the mass/weight of the boom plus sail. Vang sheeting in super light winds is even easier ... just 'unload' the rigid vang to let its internal 'spring' raise the boom to the correct (unweighted!!!) position. No need for a traveller (and topping lift) at all !!!!!
Especially on boats with large physical geometries (ie.: booms at large distances above the deck) that allows the vang/boom connection to be more towards the midboom, the need for traveller usage diminishes.
Its more effective to control both functions of traveller + rope-vang with a RIGID vang ..... preventing the boom from 'rising' and at all angles of the boom away from the boats centerline. The traveller only controls effectively the upwards motion of the boom when the boom is about 'halfway to the rail', once beyond this distance limit, the traveller becomes quite ineffective in preventing 'boom rise' ... and the newer Rigid Vangs can accomplish BOTH functions. That stated, the rigid booms systems and the vang-boom connections must be 'built like bull' to do this and the vang-boom connection should be towards the center of the boom.
So the traveller is beginning to disappear as the use of super-strong rigid vangs allow VANG SHEETING ..... or holding the boom at a constant vertical angle to the mast and prevent the boom from 'rising'. With VANG SHEETING all one has to do is release the mainsheet and the boom swings across at a constant angle with respect to the horizon - the rigid vangs do the simultaneous job that was formerly done by both the traveller AND the vang (and the topping lift).
The only perceived problem in sans-traveller set-ups is - with a traveller in super-light conditions one can always pull the traveller to the windward side (and significantly easing the mainsheet) to allow the boom to rise in reaction to 'unload' the mass/weight of the boom plus sail. Vang sheeting in super light winds is even easier ... just 'unload' the rigid vang to let its internal 'spring' raise the boom to the correct (unweighted!!!) position. No need for a traveller (and topping lift) at all !!!!!
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I have a feeling travellers are disappearing as a cost reducer on production boats, as well as the fact that many sailers haven't had the opportunity to learn the finer points of sail trim. I understand the concept that the industry and the sport want to attract newer sailers by pehaps simplifying the controls. However, this seems to be evolving into "Sailing for Dummies" in a sense.
Having learned to sail in small racing boats, I learned the value of playing the traveller in gusty conditions, both to maintain boat speed, and to remain upright. Graduating to a bigger boat, I still use the traveller help to reduce heel. I use my vang more off the wind than at any other time.
i wonder how many people even know what the outhaul does to help flatten or ease the sail.
Another sail control that seems to have disappeared over time is the cunningham.
Cruising is one thing, but cruising with the boat properly trimmed is another. A little extra attention can smooth out the ride and get one to a destination just a little bit sooner.
Having learned to sail in small racing boats, I learned the value of playing the traveller in gusty conditions, both to maintain boat speed, and to remain upright. Graduating to a bigger boat, I still use the traveller help to reduce heel. I use my vang more off the wind than at any other time.
i wonder how many people even know what the outhaul does to help flatten or ease the sail.
Another sail control that seems to have disappeared over time is the cunningham.
Cruising is one thing, but cruising with the boat properly trimmed is another. A little extra attention can smooth out the ride and get one to a destination just a little bit sooner.
My take on the "powerful vang can replace traveller" idea.
A VERY powerful rigid vang, with a VERY rigid boom could replace the traveller and allow the mainsheet to only effect angle of attack.
To touch on Scott's point of mechanics, the mainsheet effects draft and twist by effecting the leech tension. In my very rigid vang and boom case, the leech tension would be completely controlled by the vang+boom, so the mainsheet would only be a angle-of-attack control.
The geometries that Rich discusses will increase the effectiveness of vangs, but I don't think boats are being built with booms that are stiff enough to use this effect to completely replace the traveller.
A VERY powerful rigid vang, with a VERY rigid boom could replace the traveller and allow the mainsheet to only effect angle of attack.
To touch on Scott's point of mechanics, the mainsheet effects draft and twist by effecting the leech tension. In my very rigid vang and boom case, the leech tension would be completely controlled by the vang+boom, so the mainsheet would only be a angle-of-attack control.
The geometries that Rich discusses will increase the effectiveness of vangs, but I don't think boats are being built with booms that are stiff enough to use this effect to completely replace the traveller.
Having read most of the posts here, I'll offer mine as well. I have a Beneteau 323 and think it is one of the best rigged boats I have ever owned. I can single hand it with ease, even in heavy winds. But one of the biggest andantages of the traveler is the ability to 'play the puffs' upwind when racing. once you have the main set with apporpriate vang and mainsheet tension, it is very easy for a crew member to ease or tension the traveler, powering or de-powering the main to help keep the boat on it's feet. I realize that with larger boats the load on the traveler lines are probably too much to hand tension and ease, but I for one would really miss it. We use the same technique when racing J-24's upwind. You can keep the jib driving and use the main as needed.
Anyone following this discussion from the beginning could easily sympathize with T-Bird's disdain for trifling with a one of those pesky traveler things, but his proposal to eliminate that evolutionary dead-end, the mainsheet, goes a bit beyond the pale for my taste. Though I see one or possibly two engineering hurdles to be overcome in the development of his horizontal piston sail-angle-adjustment device( I hesitate to call it a sheeter; How about sheeter-cheeter). I suspect he was only being facetious with said proposal. Afterall, if such a crazy dream were doable, would it not have shown up in the most recent Americas Cup challenge? No, I suspect he was trying to illustrate the absurdity of up-winding the boom all the way to the centerline and beyond. If the pro-traveler critics could be over-traveled, say by 10 degrees, then surely they would realize they were sailing backwards,and want to throw away all those old hempy - manilla descendants for proper modern devices.
Having thought about this to some extent, I'd probably still not make the switch away from soft saggy ropes. Afterall, sailing backwards is not that much different than sailing at 4 or 5 miles an hour,as long as I could still tighten sheets and tie knots and shit like that.Given my skill level, I'd say I had a good shot at actually winning a backwards-sailing race. And isn't that what it's all about in the long run? Winning and being winners?
T-Bird, I don't mean to discredit or disrespect your points or position by having a little fun with them, but I have found that every design idea is a compromise: each great new idea has drawbacks that the test of time finds weaknesses in. Remember how great the Cunningham was 50 years ago? It was great for tired old baggy sails, not that much of an improvement for a windsurfer's mylar.
I will bet that you will have your mainsheet like the rest of us for a long time to come.
Now , if we could do something about all those jib sheet leads.........
Having thought about this to some extent, I'd probably still not make the switch away from soft saggy ropes. Afterall, sailing backwards is not that much different than sailing at 4 or 5 miles an hour,as long as I could still tighten sheets and tie knots and shit like that.Given my skill level, I'd say I had a good shot at actually winning a backwards-sailing race. And isn't that what it's all about in the long run? Winning and being winners?
T-Bird, I don't mean to discredit or disrespect your points or position by having a little fun with them, but I have found that every design idea is a compromise: each great new idea has drawbacks that the test of time finds weaknesses in. Remember how great the Cunningham was 50 years ago? It was great for tired old baggy sails, not that much of an improvement for a windsurfer's mylar.
I will bet that you will have your mainsheet like the rest of us for a long time to come.
Now , if we could do something about all those jib sheet leads.........
Scott: I'm just a common seaman and not very scientific. I just know how to make sail trim work for me and get 100% efficiency out of my sails. I'm really not at your level of scientific sail trim knowledge nor am I at the scientific knowledge level of Joe from San Diego or RichH but I'll sail head to head with them, and YOU, any day of the week. I don't know how a generator or a radio works and I don't need to know. I just turn them on and it's the same with sail trim. If a sailor takes the time to figure out what his sail trim controls are adjusting they can sail head to head with those guys any day of the week also. Sail trim is not nuclear research although some people think it is - it's more like learning to ride a bike. Once you learn to ride the bike what else is there?
I'm going to take your advise and try to demonstate more sail trim knowledge and try more to understand the deep concept of the mechanics involved. Also, I won't go into the ABC's of sail trim anymore - I'll just start at the middle of the problem and work backwards and well see how informative that is. Using your logic, sailors don't need to know what their sail trim controls for the main and jib are adjusting but they sure should know exactly how a hydraulic boom vang functions not withstanding the fact 90% of the boats on the water don't have that model.
I didn't suggest you were a fool. You appear to be overly sensitive but if you don't like being treated as a fool - don't act like one and don't be so pompous as to tell people what they can and can't do.
I never submit opinions to the "ask all sailors" and I can see why. Why I ever took part in this discussion is beyond me. Scott, I wasn't going to respond to you but the more I thought about it the less I liked your attitude, which from past discussions with you, I never liked in the first place.
I'm going to take your advise and try to demonstate more sail trim knowledge and try more to understand the deep concept of the mechanics involved. Also, I won't go into the ABC's of sail trim anymore - I'll just start at the middle of the problem and work backwards and well see how informative that is. Using your logic, sailors don't need to know what their sail trim controls for the main and jib are adjusting but they sure should know exactly how a hydraulic boom vang functions not withstanding the fact 90% of the boats on the water don't have that model.
I didn't suggest you were a fool. You appear to be overly sensitive but if you don't like being treated as a fool - don't act like one and don't be so pompous as to tell people what they can and can't do.
I never submit opinions to the "ask all sailors" and I can see why. Why I ever took part in this discussion is beyond me. Scott, I wasn't going to respond to you but the more I thought about it the less I liked your attitude, which from past discussions with you, I never liked in the first place.
Don, now you are getting entertaining ...
and it makes me smile. If you want to see rough treatment, you should try the war room at some point. If you can cut your teeth there, you will never be overly sensitive in any of these other forums.
I've read your book and have your charts and I recommend your literature to anybody. I've just noticed that you often enter these conversations with the premiss that most everybody has a sketchy knowledge, when in fact, it appears, that most have a pretty good grasp and you could dive into the finer details without leaving anybody behind.
RichH stepped up to the plate and explained far more eloquently exactly what I have been saying. I would like to have the authority and the command of language to be able to state my case in as convincing a manner as he just did, but alas, I will simply find satisfaction that he just confirmed my argument. That is, that with the advanced models of hydraulic rigid vangs, the traveler is made redundant, and that is at least one valid reason for the disappearance of travelers on some of the more advanced models of boats that are being sold.
Now, if you want to slap me up the side of the head in head-to-head competition, I would be all for it. I don't really have that much of an ego and I can take a thrashing as well as give.
and it makes me smile. If you want to see rough treatment, you should try the war room at some point. If you can cut your teeth there, you will never be overly sensitive in any of these other forums.
I've read your book and have your charts and I recommend your literature to anybody. I've just noticed that you often enter these conversations with the premiss that most everybody has a sketchy knowledge, when in fact, it appears, that most have a pretty good grasp and you could dive into the finer details without leaving anybody behind.
RichH stepped up to the plate and explained far more eloquently exactly what I have been saying. I would like to have the authority and the command of language to be able to state my case in as convincing a manner as he just did, but alas, I will simply find satisfaction that he just confirmed my argument. That is, that with the advanced models of hydraulic rigid vangs, the traveler is made redundant, and that is at least one valid reason for the disappearance of travelers on some of the more advanced models of boats that are being sold.
Now, if you want to slap me up the side of the head in head-to-head competition, I would be all for it. I don't really have that much of an ego and I can take a thrashing as well as give.
A snake has two vangs, and they hurt when he bites you. A traveller is someone who goes from place to place...What's a vang and traveler?
:naughty:
I use both on both my Rhodes Bantam and on my Newport 30...they serve two distinct purposes, and depending on what type of sailing you do, you may or may not need them...I use the traveller more on the Newport for cruising as it has a fairly rigid rig...the Bantam, on the other hand, has a very flexible rig, and I have to use the vang when I am on a broad reach or run, especially when in a dinghy race.
If you are comfortable with a traveller, then by all means, keep it...
Ed Simpson aka Cap't. Bligh II
"Das Dawg Haus" N-30 and
"Lillian B. Atkinson, Too" RB 507
If you are comfortable with a traveller, then by all means, keep it...
Ed Simpson aka Cap't. Bligh II
"Das Dawg Haus" N-30 and
"Lillian B. Atkinson, Too" RB 507
Re: Don, now you are getting entertaining ...
Scott: I've got to apologize to you. I re-read my message and I didn't like my tone. Normally, what I do, when I start to get into it with someone is write the message but not send it until the next day. In just about every situation the original message never goes out. If I do send the message it is way toned down. I should follow my own rules because we are both trying to do the same thing and give sail trim info to beginners, many of who have no idea what they are doing - I certainly didn't when I first got into sail trim. We just have different ways of going about the same goal.
Peace shipmate!!
Scott: I've got to apologize to you. I re-read my message and I didn't like my tone. Normally, what I do, when I start to get into it with someone is write the message but not send it until the next day. In just about every situation the original message never goes out. If I do send the message it is way toned down. I should follow my own rules because we are both trying to do the same thing and give sail trim info to beginners, many of who have no idea what they are doing - I certainly didn't when I first got into sail trim. We just have different ways of going about the same goal.
Peace shipmate!!
Don, no worries from my end ...
Like I said, I've been shaped (heat-tempered) by the battles in the War Room and I find nothing objectionable about having a good argument in here, either. I understand that some find it a little shocking!
However, the basis for this thread is "why are travelers disappearing from some of the newer boat models?", not so much a discussion of sail trim or how a traveler is used. It just kind of migrated into that kind of discussion when people lost focus of the question. Many people were simply describing how they use a traveler, and not recognizing that there may be a reason why it is not needed with modern technology.
Anyway, I have no desire to carry any grudges and I also apologize for being more abrasive than I needed to be.
Fair Winds, Mate!
Like I said, I've been shaped (heat-tempered) by the battles in the War Room and I find nothing objectionable about having a good argument in here, either. I understand that some find it a little shocking!
However, the basis for this thread is "why are travelers disappearing from some of the newer boat models?", not so much a discussion of sail trim or how a traveler is used. It just kind of migrated into that kind of discussion when people lost focus of the question. Many people were simply describing how they use a traveler, and not recognizing that there may be a reason why it is not needed with modern technology.
Anyway, I have no desire to carry any grudges and I also apologize for being more abrasive than I needed to be.
Fair Winds, Mate!
Perhaps. Well, most assuredly.
But I have gained good insight into the value of a traveler...so all is not lost.Carry on...
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