It seems the traveler is falling out of favor on a number of modern boats. The 2011 Bavaria 32, Morris M series, Hinckley DS42 Beneteau 50, to name a few, all skip the traveler. For these boats, cost is not the reason or space or a willingness to accept substandard performance. So what do you think is the reason? How are they managing sail control without a device which heretofore was considered pretty much essential?
Traveler
- Thread starter Quoddy
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Quoddy,
I know what you mean, but follow me for minute. And keep in mind that I'm a newbie (engineer) that thinks a lot. A traveler is designed to allow the sailor to change to angle of attack of the mainsheet thereby applying more downward pull as the boom swing out over the rail keeping the sail from skying and maintaining its shape. Correct? A boom vang is used to lock the boom into a fixed position based on the tension of its control line not the position to the rail. With a boom vang, could you skip a traveler altogether. I'm probably missing something here but is does seem that a vang makes a traveler superfluous. The vang maintains the sail shape and the mainsheet maintains the booms position over the rail.
So . . . if I am remotely correct, they supply a boom vang and a fixed position mainsheet for that reason.
Clueless in Biddeford
(Don)
I know what you mean, but follow me for minute. And keep in mind that I'm a newbie (engineer) that thinks a lot. A traveler is designed to allow the sailor to change to angle of attack of the mainsheet thereby applying more downward pull as the boom swing out over the rail keeping the sail from skying and maintaining its shape. Correct? A boom vang is used to lock the boom into a fixed position based on the tension of its control line not the position to the rail. With a boom vang, could you skip a traveler altogether. I'm probably missing something here but is does seem that a vang makes a traveler superfluous. The vang maintains the sail shape and the mainsheet maintains the booms position over the rail.
So . . . if I am remotely correct, they supply a boom vang and a fixed position mainsheet for that reason.
Clueless in Biddeford
(Don)
Do those boats have hydraulic vangs? It takes a very powerful vang and stiff boom to give you the same control over leech shape as you get with a traveler.
Dear Dscribner:
I'm not an engineer, but with a reasonable number of math/physics/chemistry courses in my background before I defected towards economics, I've also got the "thinks a lot too much" issue. My wife gripes about it sometimes anyway. I don't always come to logical conclusions, but there could be worse issues to have.
Regarding your post, there really is more to the traveler than might meet the eye. For instance, positioning the traveler to windward but slacking out the mainsheet (and slacking the boom vang at bit) will allow the boom to brought to center, but will also give twist to the upper part of the sail. So in moderate/strong winds, the boat might point into the wind better without so much weather helm and heel.
There's a lot to the interplay between wind velocity, mainsheet tension, boom position, traveler position and boom vang tension. Add to that halyard tension, the cunningham, and outhaul adjustments. I certainly don't have it down pat by a long shot. But there is lots of info out there.
I use my traveler a lot depending on conditions. I remember during my basic keelboat/basic cruising course one day when a steady a 35kt wind caused almost uncontrollable weather helm even with the mainsail on the second reef, the instructor dropped the traveler to leeward. It still was struggle at the helm, but much improved.
As to why some newer boats are sans traveler, I'll let others chime in. However, I have noticed that instead of on the traveler, the main sheet anchor points on the deck for some new boats are are spread out across the beam direction. I suspect that the operator can tension one side or the other more to simulate the effect of a traveler?
I'm not an engineer, but with a reasonable number of math/physics/chemistry courses in my background before I defected towards economics, I've also got the "thinks a lot too much" issue. My wife gripes about it sometimes anyway. I don't always come to logical conclusions, but there could be worse issues to have.
Regarding your post, there really is more to the traveler than might meet the eye. For instance, positioning the traveler to windward but slacking out the mainsheet (and slacking the boom vang at bit) will allow the boom to brought to center, but will also give twist to the upper part of the sail. So in moderate/strong winds, the boat might point into the wind better without so much weather helm and heel.
There's a lot to the interplay between wind velocity, mainsheet tension, boom position, traveler position and boom vang tension. Add to that halyard tension, the cunningham, and outhaul adjustments. I certainly don't have it down pat by a long shot. But there is lots of info out there.
I use my traveler a lot depending on conditions. I remember during my basic keelboat/basic cruising course one day when a steady a 35kt wind caused almost uncontrollable weather helm even with the mainsail on the second reef, the instructor dropped the traveler to leeward. It still was struggle at the helm, but much improved.
As to why some newer boats are sans traveler, I'll let others chime in. However, I have noticed that instead of on the traveler, the main sheet anchor points on the deck for some new boats are are spread out across the beam direction. I suspect that the operator can tension one side or the other more to simulate the effect of a traveler?
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Rardi,
Thanks for all the attention! I know there is SO much that I don't know and all the intricacies of sail control is something that I have to get a hold of. I am a newbie, like I said, and I am sure that the books that I have referred to are over simplified. If there are six sail controls and all six can be used in ten positions, that is 100,000 possible combinations. Now, if they are infinitely adjustable . . .
At the same time, Roger had the same thought . . . ish. Roger is a very accomplished sailor and one of the moderators. He's also from Maine which garnishes him extra points!
Fair Winds!
Don
Thanks for all the attention! I know there is SO much that I don't know and all the intricacies of sail control is something that I have to get a hold of. I am a newbie, like I said, and I am sure that the books that I have referred to are over simplified. If there are six sail controls and all six can be used in ten positions, that is 100,000 possible combinations. Now, if they are infinitely adjustable . . .
At the same time, Roger had the same thought . . . ish. Roger is a very accomplished sailor and one of the moderators. He's also from Maine which garnishes him extra points!
Fair Winds!
Don
Vang
For years I thought the same thing, having never used a traveler. I had a flash though, a while back. A vang won't allow you to position the boom windward. This changes a lot of the sailing geometry. Loads, heeling etc.
I still have never used one but I can see why they are important. I doubt I will install one because of my type of "cruising" but mainly because of space, access and concerns of sore knees when accessing the cabin.
I would like one though.
For years I thought the same thing, having never used a traveler. I had a flash though, a while back. A vang won't allow you to position the boom windward. This changes a lot of the sailing geometry. Loads, heeling etc.
I still have never used one but I can see why they are important. I doubt I will install one because of my type of "cruising" but mainly because of space, access and concerns of sore knees when accessing the cabin.
I would like one though.
Some misconceptions here. The traveler changes the angle of attack. The boom vang pulls the boom down and changes the shape of the sail. The boom vang can't change the angle of attack. You can't "skip the traveler."
I've heard this rebuttal often when the 'vang vs traveler' discussion arises. Now, while I'm sure you are correct in both literal terms and in the spirit of the discussion, I must present this from a newbies viewpoint. Yes the traveler adjusts angle of attack, but so does the main sheet, correct? The problem, as I understand it, is the main sheet, when let out to control the angle of attack, also allows the boom to rise, reducing leech tension. In my mind, then, the vang could overcome this, in combination with the sheet. The best new insight I've read on this matter is travelers, ability to advance the angle of attack windward. I don't see how this could be done with anything but a traveler. So while the experts here insist (and rightly I believe) that vang + main sheet <> traveler, I had always thought the traveler was a 'convenience' control, allowing easy small adjustments to the AOA without disturbing sail shape. I'm now of the belief that it is more than that, but without one to play with I'll have to take others word for it.
I think Roger came to the heart of the matter ... rigid vangs plus stiff booms means a traveler isn't needed. With a more powerful vang employed to control sail shape at all angles of attack, the mainsheet is needed for angle of attack only and the traveler is reduced to redundancy.
In the common application, the soft vang is less managable because of where the forces are exerted at that small triangle at the base of the mast and the forward end of the boom. The traveler and mainsheet combination is more powerful and essentially manages sail shape more easily (without the need for the vang), at least for that short swing to the outward limits of the traveler. But when the boom swings out beyond that point, the traveler has lost its usefulness and the mainsheet can no longer be used to manage the sail shape. That's where the vang is needed to control shape while the mainsheet is used merely for angle of attack.
Modern equipment just eliminates that redundancy ... the vang controls shape, the mainsheet controls angle of attack ... at all points.
In the common application, the soft vang is less managable because of where the forces are exerted at that small triangle at the base of the mast and the forward end of the boom. The traveler and mainsheet combination is more powerful and essentially manages sail shape more easily (without the need for the vang), at least for that short swing to the outward limits of the traveler. But when the boom swings out beyond that point, the traveler has lost its usefulness and the mainsheet can no longer be used to manage the sail shape. That's where the vang is needed to control shape while the mainsheet is used merely for angle of attack.
Modern equipment just eliminates that redundancy ... the vang controls shape, the mainsheet controls angle of attack ... at all points.
Scott, The mainsheet does not control angle of attack without a traveller. How would you set the angle of attack above dead center without a traveller? I use my traveller extensively in lite air for just this purpose.
Ray
Ray
Over Center
If the boat were never to be raced, I suppose you can do without a traveler. Indeed I did for three boats and simply used a good vang. However, I sheet to windward lots of times, and it would be difficult to point as high, or keep the main from flogging motorsailing if I could not. I'm basically agnostic, but would be at a big disadvantage for my sailing habits without a traveler (or adjustable jib cars for that matter).
If the boat were never to be raced, I suppose you can do without a traveler. Indeed I did for three boats and simply used a good vang. However, I sheet to windward lots of times, and it would be difficult to point as high, or keep the main from flogging motorsailing if I could not. I'm basically agnostic, but would be at a big disadvantage for my sailing habits without a traveler (or adjustable jib cars for that matter).
It seems to me that a traveler would be much cheaper to build and install then a powerful vang, reinforced, boom, and possible sail and maybe even a reinforced mast. I am no expert here. I'd be interested to hear from Roger concerning the engineering side of doing away with a traveler.
When sailing closehauled or on a close reach, using the mainsheet for angle of attack and the vang to control twist will put you at a big disadvantage against boats with a traveller handling angle of attack and the sheet controlling twist.... WHY? Because The mainsheet pulls DOWN (as in vertical) when the boom is pulled in towards center... and that will change the twist of the mainsail... the vang becomes useless because the sheet overides it. Even a solid vang will be compressed by tensioning the mainsheet.
This thread ought to be bumped over, or better, restarted on Don Gilliette's forum. The whole subject is one on which it is hard to generalize because individual boat factors such as boom stiffness, vang power, geometry, traveler length, and even hull characteristics effect the best use of the sail controls.
It is funny how everyone seems to preface his comment that he doesn't know what he's talking about, then proceeds to give an opinion. One can tell the few number of racers who commented. You can't sheet to windward and have a twisted leach without a traveler. You can't have a tight leach on a broad reach without a vang.In between these two settings there is some redundancy of function,with sail shape affected by 2 of the 3 controls.
You mean the strains on the sheet attachment point? That's too boat specific to comment.
As for sail twist, look at photos of pre WW II boats, before vangs were common, and laugh; especially gaff rigs. I think sailing techniques were different in those days and twist was used to let them carry the much larger rigs. With twist, you can head up in the gusts and the top of the sail de-powers. In the lulls, you bear off and the full sail is effective although the lower portion is sheeted in a bit too much. It's like being able to reef and un-reef with the tiller. Not as fast to windward as modern sail trim methods but expectations were lower.
I've used this method with gaff rigged cats by lowering the peak slightly in heavy, gusty conditions. When you are fighting to keep speed up and restore it quickly for rudder control after slowing in a strong gust, it works great. Older hulls were slower to accelerate so sail twist probably worked better for them.
I agree with Rolltacker. When cruising my C30, I am more willing to give up some performance and it doesn't make much difference either way under most conditions and I could live with one or the other, though I have both a traveler and a vang. But when racing, you encounter the two extremes he mentions far more often and having both controls at your disposal, is very valuable. You can't achieve a twist in your main and keep it on the centerline without a traveler and you can't get a flat sailshape with the main out for a broad reach or run without a vang.
Very simply, the traveler allows you to point higher if you can't change boat course, as in motor sailing in the ICWW with wind on the nose. You would probably have to roll up the genoa because you can't move your headstay closer to the wind, no track on your headstay tack. It also allows you to ease the mainsail trim w/o having to ease the mainsheet, to dump a little wind. Capt'n Ed, II Dolphins Sailing School
Ray, the answer is ... you don't ...
I agree that it is common to set the traveler block above dead center. You do that so that you can ease the sheet to allow twist when close hauled.
Actually, I would have to agree that without a traveler, it would be very difficult to bring the boom in as near to center as you might want, because it is near-impossible to sheet in with the mainsheet to that extent.
Remember, Quoddy's original question was why NEW boat models are eliminating the traveler. It's because travelers are made redundant by powerful, rigid vangs that more easily control twist at all points of sail trim, making the sole purpose of the mainsheet for angle of attack.
With a powerful rigid vang, the mainsail can easily be twisted with the mainsheet close- hauled. A rigid vang can be used at any point of sail to open or close the leach ... no need for a traveler to adjust angle of attack ... the mainsheet does it because the mainsheet no longer has any impact on twist with a rigid vang.
There is no reason to set the angle of attack above dead center ... that is just slow and not useful for any reason.
I agree that it is common to set the traveler block above dead center. You do that so that you can ease the sheet to allow twist when close hauled.
Actually, I would have to agree that without a traveler, it would be very difficult to bring the boom in as near to center as you might want, because it is near-impossible to sheet in with the mainsheet to that extent.
Remember, Quoddy's original question was why NEW boat models are eliminating the traveler. It's because travelers are made redundant by powerful, rigid vangs that more easily control twist at all points of sail trim, making the sole purpose of the mainsheet for angle of attack.
With a powerful rigid vang, the mainsail can easily be twisted with the mainsheet close- hauled. A rigid vang can be used at any point of sail to open or close the leach ... no need for a traveler to adjust angle of attack ... the mainsheet does it because the mainsheet no longer has any impact on twist with a rigid vang.
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