Traveler car/track as tether?

[BAD ORCA]

Please go easy on me. Just doing some morning coffee/back of napkin thinking.

Was reading a post on reefing this morning here on SBO and was watching this

video recently. Was wondering how on earth you would go forward to reef a main at the mast in this sort of situation if you got caught off guard. It certainly makes the case for cockpit reefing.

So i started thinking of ways to securely tether if you had a boat that had mast reefing that was in severe winds and heavily pitching seas. I'm not an offshore sailor yet, so i have no real world experience to go on, but I'm thinking certainly granny bars would be extremely helpful, but started thinking of ways of securing a tether that would be highly mobile and strong so you could get to the mast and feel safe working there, or as safe and stable as possible.

My boat has jib tracks that run along the side deck for the jib cars/sheets, but my system is pinned cars that can be adjusted and set secure with pins. I know jib tracks exist that do not use pins so got me thinking, maybe a jib track could be mounted to the coach roof on each side of the mast with a sliding car. A tether with a short loop could then be fastened to this car on the track and that car would freely slide and move down the track with a tether attached. The track would only run the length of the coach roof on each side of the mast so would be easily reachable from the cockpit to clip onto before going forward. My question is how feasible does this sound? I dont know the ultimate breaking strength of these aluminum tracks, but considering what mine go through under the stress of my giant genoa, it seems like they would likely be plenty strong to secure a person. Also, they are securely mounted to the boat and have no give/stretch, so a short tether would be easier to install that keeps you from going overboard.

Does this sound like a ridiculous idea or do you think it has real merit? I dont have jacklines on my boat yet but will be starting to do a lot of solo sailing soon now that some of the bigger projects are getting completed. I really dislike the messy canvas straps that run down the decks that are used as a tethering point on boats. I have seen some in person and they did not inspire confidence, although tthey seem to work just fine. Just thinking there has got to be a better/cleaner way.

Welcome any input or critiques, or ideas to make this work/better if you think it maybe a good thing.

 

[PaulK]

You have a good idea with tracks, but are reinventing the wheel unless the tracks are already in place. Jacklines are less expensive, easier to rig, and would not cause leaks in the coachroof the way tracks would. Jacklines are also more flexible in that they allow for going further forward than the mast if you want them to. Jacklines with granny bars would be quite reasonable if you don't want to clip onto the mast itself instead of having granny bars.

 

[Timm R Oday25]

A ring on the coach roof and a 6' tether might just allow you to get to the mast .
If not , we have lines that run from the cockpit to the bow that we clip onto .
2 tethers , only one gets unclipped at a time

 

[dlochner]

Probably the best and most thought out articles on jacklines (among many other sailing issues) is John Harries articles on his website Attainable Adventure Cruising. The articles are behind a modest paywall. If you are considering ocean sailing then subscribing will be the best money you have spent in preparation for your journeys.

Attainable Adventure Cruising

Reference and technical site for offshore voyaging and cruising in sail and motorboats.

www.morganscloud.com

 

[Foswick]

OK, I have a lot of criticism for the skipper and crew in that video, but that's not what your post was about. So, I'll hold my tongue (almost).

What others have said about jacklines is all true. That's what we have and you can't beat the simplicity of it. There are some risks specifically with the tether length in the case of an actual capsize. Those risks are not theoretical, they have resulted in actual and near deaths. (The risk being that the tether is so short that it holds you under water, but too long to reach the attachment point to free yourself. There are ways to mitigate that risk, but it is not something most people need to worry about. I have only heard of this in offshore races, though it could happen to anyone, I suppose.)

We almost bought a Hans Christian 43 that was mostly not rigged to the cockpit. They had nice little waist-high rails around the mast. So, when you were standing at the mast, you were in a nice little "alcove". I actually really liked it. Made you feel very secure at the mast.

All that said, it is not that unusual for us to get hit like that (in the video). And, we have had to reef because, true to our usual form, we waited too long to do so and/or genuinely had no warning (but usually the former case, if I'm honest). It is very doable. The problem that most crews make is that they panic and they try to do this in a hurry. That's when things go wrong.

You need to first sail the boat. If you are not already in good control of the boat, trying to reef is generally not going to make you safer. So, for us, that usually means pointing high and getting our jib furled to calm things down a bit. We'll also start the engine so we have control in irons and just motor into the wind with the main sheeted hard to center. This usually puts us in a bouncy state (smashing into the waves), but we have control over the boat and can take our time.

But, this is one time our ketch comes in handy. We have found that, for most points of sail, all we really need to is drop the main and raise the mizzen. Done. We furl the jib for balance, but that's pretty much it.

Then, if we wanted to, we could take our time reefing the main, but we haven't found the need. When winds exceed 20 kts, we can maintain hull speed with just jib and jigger on most points of sail.

 

[thinwater]

I will speak only to the track vs. jackline subject.

Stretch. The lack of stretch could keep you farther inboard. But the impact of a "catch" could be quite injurious. Just as a test, anchor your tether to a tree, give it several feet of slack, and run at it. It will hurt. 6 feet of slack can break ribs. There needs to be some stretch somewhere if there is the potential to have more than several feet of slack. Sailing tethers are polyester and do not stretch materially. You can also eliminate stretch more simply by using either steel cable or Dyneema.

Rapid sliding. In fact friction is you freind, slowing your getting washed the length of the deck.

Hand hold. Jacklines often make good handholds that are not the lifeline, which is generally not a good handhold. On some boats this "hand hold" can be more useful than tethers. It is also there for you when you did not use a tether.

Routing. This is boat-specific, but on many boats the jackline runs under the sheets but over some of the control lines. Easy. With a track the "jackline" cannot cross any control lines or your way will be impeded.

Tripping. A track and a jackline are probably even on this one. Very boat specific.

Where is the car? Is it where you needed it when it is time to clip on, or did someone leave it somewhere else? If you unclip while forward (and clipped to something else), did it blow to the back of the boat, or at least, well out of reach? That's a pain. Suddenly, you have no jackline.

This has been considered many times, by many people. Dyneema seems to solve the stretch problem better. Go one size oversized and it lasts a good many years. (Do not go crazy big--fat lines roll underfoot.)

 

[dlochner]

The risk being that the tether is so short that it holds you under water, but too long to reach the attachment point to free yourself.

This is no longer an issue unless one is using archaic tethers or worse, a piece of rope. Modern tethers have a quick release shackle at the human end of the tether and a double action clip at the jackline/attachment point end.

 

[MFD]

Off topic, but I have found the two-leg tethers to work very well.
When at a station, you can use whichever leg works best for what you are doing.
When moving, you can clip on to something new before you unclip from something old.
And yes, the non-binding quick release shackle is on the PFD end of things.

 

[kappykaplan]

So, for us, that usually means pointing high and getting our jib furled to calm things down a bit. We'll also start the engine so we have control in irons and just motor into the wind with the main sheeted hard to center. This usually puts us in a bouncy state (smashing into the waves), but we have control over the boat and can take our time.

 

[MFD]

I would be hesitant to have the jackstays associated with any deck hardware that is part of the standing or running rigging.
I can't recall for sure, but I think technically (for racing anyway) they need to be attached to hard points dedicated solely to that purpose.

To get back to the practical side of things, on my boat I found that using the bow cleats and the stern cleats (I have four on each side) and crossing to the other side of the mast and back gave a good lead to get to everywhere while remaining inboard. Yes, if the foot of the mast gave out, they could impact the jackstays - so breaking my own comment up above but I think the mast base is less sketchy than the jib tracks and cars, not sure why my instinct is that way. Another thing is getting back on the boat, so if the lines are inboard and you are on the short tether leg, you stand a chance to clamor back up on your own up forward. For the midship to aft section, I have considered having some kind of loops near the stern on each side as another mechanism to have something to at least grab onto and maybe even work into a foothold or leg hold some how to help getting back on independently.

+1 on the comment above about the Attainable Adventure Crusing. An annual subscription is really cheap and they have a wealth of information and also many of the people that comment there are very experienced as well.

Another reference for things like that that I always fall back is the offshore racing regs - particularly category 1. Had to build a 30 footer up many years ago to meet requirements. It was a good experience hence I frequently use their regulations as a guideline and an additional data point about how to do things.

 

[Foswick]

This is no longer an issue unless one is using archaic tethers or worse, a piece of rope. Modern tethers have a quick release shackle at the human end of the tether and a double action clip at the jackline/attachment point end.

I think it is premature to say that tethers without quick release are archaic. They are still made, sold, and used - quite commonly, actually.

But, quick release does help with that risk, but most tethers with quick release bring their own set of problems. In some situations, getting free of the boat just lets you freeze to death rather than drown. And, most quick release tethers are just a snap shackle and these are subject to coming open if they don't get all the way closed, which does happen. The snap shackle is also less secure than a permanent webbing loop (though I would still take the snap shackle).

One of the best things to do on any boat that requires crew to go to the mast is to permanently affix a static line at the mast, with a snap shackle on one end. Then, when you are at the mast, you have something to grab onto initially but when working there, you loop that line around behind you and clip it onto the mast. This keeps you securely on the boat and on your feet in a way that a jackline can't. And, it doesn't require you to be smart enough to already be wearing a harness or even a PFD. (It isn't designed to arrest a high-load fall. It is just designed to prevent that fall in the first place.)

 

[dLj]

Points above are very good. I will add that granny bars at the mast i consider mandatory for going off-shore.

Anyone thinking of going off-shore should pay for John Harries website. I think it is head and shoulders above any resource available - anywhere. It's dirt cheap to be a subscriber. I spent at least two years reading and rereading the information there before I set off. He covers pretty much everything - and really well! In some subjects where there may be controversy, or differing points of view, there are some of the best sailors in the world adding comments. In some subjects the article may be great, but then you read through all the comments and it is a treasure-trove of seriously excellent information. You've heard this now from several of us and all I can add is - just subscribe and read. You will thank each of us for directing you there.

I do all mainsail reefing at my mast. It happens to be my system, but even if I had a more traditional rig, and I've had them, I would still go to the mast to reef.

Actually, I think in the video, reefing from the cockpit would have proven difficult if not impossible. I do not see that video as supporting cockpit reefing. The contrary - I see it as supporting as simple of a reefing system as possible.

I've been at my mast in notably worse weather than that video.

As to jack lines - I run Jack line's as close to my centerline as possible. I set them up so you cannot go over the lifelines if you are tethered. I tested them at every point you could get to. i use flat nylon webbing so if you do accidentally step on it you do not slip or twist an ankle. I can be tethered to my jack lines from stepping out of the cockpit all the way to the bow sprit of my boat. The way my boat is set up you can't run them all the way to the cockpit. So I have connections where you can hook and unhook while moving anywhere in crap conditions you are always tethered. It takes thought and practice to set things up well.

Practice means everyone that crews on my boat has to walk through moving everywhere such that no one ever has to figure it out when foul weather is present.

dj

 

[BAD ORCA]

Probably the best and most thought out articles on jacklines (among many other sailing issues) is John Harries articles on his website Attainable Adventure Cruising. The articles are behind a modest paywall. If you are considering ocean sailing then subscribing will be the best money you have spent in preparation for your journeys.

Attainable Adventure Cruising

Reference and technical site for offshore voyaging and cruising in sail and motorboats.

www.morganscloud.com

Thanks , yes subscribed yesterday. My first read was Susie Goodalls drogue failure. Good stuff...

 

[BAD ORCA]

OK, I have a lot of criticism for the skipper and crew in that video, but that's not what your post was about. So, I'll hold my tongue (almost).

What others have said about jacklines is all true. That's what we have and you can't beat the simplicity of it. There are some risks specifically with the tether length in the case of an actual capsize. Those risks are not theoretical, they have resulted in actual and near deaths. (The risk being that the tether is so short that it holds you under water, but too long to reach the attachment point to free yourself. There are ways to mitigate that risk, but it is not something most people need to worry about. I have only heard of this in offshore races, though it could happen to anyone, I suppose.)

We almost bought a Hans Christian 43 that was mostly not rigged to the cockpit. They had nice little waist-high rails around the mast. So, when you were standing at the mast, you were in a nice little "alcove". I actually really liked it. Made you feel very secure at the mast.

All that said, it is not that unusual for us to get hit like that (in the video). And, we have had to reef because, true to our usual form, we waited too long to do so and/or genuinely had no warning (but usually the former case, if I'm honest). It is very doable. The problem that most crews make is that they panic and they try to do this in a hurry. That's when things go wrong.

You need to first sail the boat. If you are not already in good control of the boat, trying to reef is generally not going to make you safer. So, for us, that usually means pointing high and getting our jib furled to calm things down a bit. We'll also start the engine so we have control in irons and just motor into the wind with the main sheeted hard to center. This usually puts us in a bouncy state (smashing into the waves), but we have control over the boat and can take our time.

But, this is one time our ketch comes in handy. We have found that, for most points of sail, all we really need to is drop the main and raise the mizzen. Done. We furl the jib for balance, but that's pretty much it.

Then, if we wanted to, we could take our time reefing the main, but we haven't found the need. When winds exceed 20 kts, we can maintain hull speed with just jib and jigger on most points of sail.

Yes, granny bars. I will absolutely be installing those. Good point on the short tether. I didnt think of that. No one expects their boat will capsize, but i'd like to sail to Chile and Argentina through the Beagle channel so you never know. I always have a knife clipped to me but thats no guarantee I wouldn't loose it going in the water.

 

[BAD ORCA]

I will speak only to the track vs. jackline subject.

Stretch. The lack of stretch could keep you farther inboard. But the impact of a "catch" could be quite injurious. Just as a test, anchor your tether to a tree, give it several feet of slack, and run at it. It will hurt. 6 feet of slack can break ribs. There needs to be some stretch somewhere if there is the potential to have more than several feet of slack. Sailing tethers are polyester and do not stretch materially. You can also eliminate stretch more simply by using either steel cable or Dyneema.

Rapid sliding. In fact friction is you freind, slowing your getting washed the length of the deck.

Hand hold. Jacklines often make good handholds that are not the lifeline, which is generally not a good handhold. On some boats this "hand hold" can be more useful than tethers. It is also there for you when you did not use a tether.

Routing. This is boat-specific, but on many boats the jackline runs under the sheets but over some of the control lines. Easy. With a track the "jackline" cannot cross any control lines or your way will be impeded.

Tripping. A track and a jackline are probably even on this one. Very boat specific.

Where is the car? Is it where you needed it when it is time to clip on, or did someone leave it somewhere else? If you unclip while forward (and clipped to something else), did it blow to the back of the boat, or at least, well out of reach? That's a pain. Suddenly, you have no jackline.

This has been considered many times, by many people. Dyneema seems to solve the stretch problem better. Go one size oversized and it lasts a good many years. (Do not go crazy big--fat lines roll underfoot.)

Thanks, those are some good points, particularly stretch. The car friction i'm sure could be dealt with fairly easy. I have seen tethers with bungie type attachments, but they look way too cumbersome.

running the track would be very easy on my boat. I have a wide, flat coachroof with plenty of room inside the hand rails. The tether line and track would not interfere with anything and vice-versa. Its that big open coach roof that made me think it was feasible in the first place. At least on my boat. This clearly would not be the case for many others.

Anyways, thanks for the input, its just a thought. I'll think about it a lot more. I will probably run traditional jacklines in the end, but may try to run them along the coachroof in the same location. The forgiving stretch they offer in the case of a long fall seems like it trumps the other considerations unless I can figure out how to mitigate that without adding more complexity or discomfort.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Off topic, but I have found the two-leg tethers to work very well.
When at a station, you can use whichever leg works best for what you are doing.
When moving, you can clip on to something new before you unclip from something old.
And yes, the non-binding quick release shackle is on the PFD end of things.

I have not seen these yet.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Points above are very good. I will add that granny bars at the mast i consider mandatory for going off-shore.

Anyone thinking of going off-shore should pay for John Harries website. I think it is head and shoulders above any resource available - anywhere. It's dirt cheap to be a subscriber. I spent at least two years reading and rereading the information there before I set off. He covers pretty much everything - and really well! In some subjects where there may be controversy, or differing points of view, there are some of the best sailors in the world adding comments. In some subjects the article may be great, but then you read through all the comments and it is a treasure-trove of seriously excellent information. You've heard this now from several of us and all I can add is - just subscribe and read. You will thank each of us for directing you there.

I do all mainsail reefing at my mast. It happens to be my system, but even if I had a more traditional rig, and I've had them, I would still go to the mast to reef.

Actually, I think in the video, reefing from the cockpit would have proven difficult if not impossible. I do not see that video as supporting cockpit reefing. The contrary - I see it as supporting as simple of a reefing system as possible.

I've been at my mast in notably worse weather than that video.

As to jack lines - I run Jack line's as close to my centerline as possible. I set them up so you cannot go over the lifelines if you are tethered. I tested them at every point you could get to. i use flat nylon webbing so if you do accidentally step on it you do not slip or twist an ankle. I can be tethered to my jack lines from stepping out of the cockpit all the way to the bow sprit of my boat. The way my boat is set up you can't run them all the way to the cockpit. So I have connections where you can hook and unhook while moving anywhere in crap conditions you are always tethered. It takes thought and practice to set things up well.

Practice means everyone that crews on my boat has to walk through moving everywhere such that no one ever has to figure it out when foul weather is present.

dj

Thanks. Yup I subscribed yesterday due to the overwhelming advice to. Looking forward to reading as much as I can. My offshore sailing is getting closer so its time to start understanding some of the basics and start thinking about incorporating them into my boat as i'm upgrading her. Some of it i'm sure I wont 'get' until i'm actually out there but it would be unwise not to be prepared and know how to handle a situation before it happens, as in the case of the video I linked. I think the video is a perfect example of someone who could be very competent sailor but simply didnt know how to react.

I like the idea of flat nylon webbing. I have rolled an ankle on a rope before. Its a very unpleasant experience.

Its good to hear getting to the mast is doable. I have never been in that type of weather so it looked pretty vicious like you would be dropped in the ocean trying to go forward.

 

[dLj]

I have not seen these yet.

I have a number of tethers on my boat. My favorite by far is the Kong double tether.

Elastic Tether Double - Safety tether for boats - KONG

Double arms elastic safety tether for improving the safety during sailboat racing

www.kong.it

The respective lengths of the short and long legs are just right. The connectors are an excellent size and easily operated with one hand, even gloved and have a safety mechanism where it would be darned near impossible for them to inadvertently unclip.

dj

 

[BAD ORCA]

I have a number of tethers on my boat. My favorite by far is the Kong double tether.

Elastic Tether Double - Safety tether for boats - KONG

Double arms elastic safety tether for improving the safety during sailboat racing

www.kong.it

The respective lengths of the short and long legs are just right. The connectors are an excellent size and easily operated with one hand, even gloves and have a safety mechanism where it be darned near impossible for them to inadvertently unclip.

dj

Oh, ok thats what he was referring to. I have seen those before. thanks.

 

[dLj]

I can't really tell on your Mariner 36 how you would install the granny bars, but you'll figure out the design that works on the outside. That boat has a cored deck. So when you drill through for the attachments, make a slightly oversized hole. Then make a L shaped cutter you can put in a drill or your tool of choice that can cut out the core between the top and bottom fiberglass. Then using some kind of backing like tape on the inside. Fill the entire space with structural epoxy. Once set, drill the hole through that epoxy "plug" for your fasteners. Use either fender washers or make a backing plate on the inside for the nuts.

That way you create a sealed structure so there can be no water ingress into the coring and you are making a structural connection point across that cored structure. Does this make sense?

dj