Top Down furling for solo sailing

[ricksoth]

I'm looking at setting up top-down furling on my Cal 2-27 to make my solo sailing in Puget Sound easier than using the sock currently setup on my asymmetrical spinnaker.

What makes this attractive is the option of leaving the slip (winter) or mooring ball (summer) with the spinnaker hoisted and rolled up, and then using the genoa furler for pointing and the asymmetrical for off the wind.

I wonder how far forward of the headstay / furled genoa does the top-down setup and it's furled sail need to be to avoid conflict when furling and deploying these sails.

Currently my halyards are all at the mast. I only have 2 winches which are in use. Should I plan on adding a rope-clutch for the main or genoa so that winch can be used for the spinnaker halyard also?

Have others set this type of thing up and used it successfully when sailing solo or with inexperienced crews?

Did you setup your own system (DIY) or have a sailmaker/rigger set it up for you?

Any thoughts on this are appreciated.

 

[jssailem]

1. I wonder how far forward of the headstay / furled genoa does the top-down setup and it's furled sail need to be to avoid conflict when furling and deploying these sails.
2. Currently my halyards are all at the mast. I only have 2 winches which are in use. Should I plan on adding a rope-clutch for the main or genoa so that winch can be used for the spinnaker halyard also?
3. Did you setup your own system (DIY) or have a sailmaker/rigger set it up for you?
4. Have others set this type of thing up and used it successfully when sailing solo or with inexperienced crews?

1. They need to run parallel to the headsail on your furler. I have observed them as being separated by about 2 feet. It would depend on the top-down furler you purchase and how the unit works. Of the systems out there, I found the Harken Torsional design attractive, but the price was outside my budget. I have been on a boat that was rigged. The tension of the unit and the way the furling lines are installed appeared to be critical to a smooth furl performance.
2. You will need a way to secure your halyards if you want to use a shared winch. A rope-clutch is one way. You can also use a cleat. I find cleats preferable.
3. I worked out this issue with my rigger, who was overhauling my rigging and mast.
4. When they work, they can be beneficial. When they jam or backwind, it will mean a solo sailor has to be on the foredeck to untangle the mess. You will need a way to steer the boat while you resolve the issue.

 

[Joe]

If you're going this direction, with the continuous line furler-torsion line luff arrangement, I would seriously consider installing an extendable aluminum bowsprit. The one I researched for my 27 footer was offered by Selden, I never pulled the plug on it, but I recall the hardware was going to run around $1,100 or so.. (that was 5 years ago.) All the info you need is here... If you're really serious about getting max performance out of your gennaker... this is absolutely the way to go. Trust me, you'll be the envy of all the real sailors in your neck of the woods. In the link for the Selden Extendable Gennaker Bowsprit, you'll want to open the support document that has the sizing info.. this will help you determine the cost....and pretty much any other questions you'll have. Anyway... that's my solution.

As far as winches go... you really should have another set., If you buy older standard winches (i.e. not self tailing) and go with cam cleats instead of clutches (easier, faster and can be operated one handed,) expense will be minimal. You don't need a halyard winch for the gennaker.... it's wrapped around the torsion line,,, it's not heavy you can stand at the mast and jump it up before you cast off.. But you will want winches for the sheets. Just get small standard, one speeds... that's all you need for downwind work. Besides your existing winches are most likely to far forward. Good luck. The extendable bowsprit would be a very cool addition to enhance performance and provide more thrills.

They are very emphatic that this setup is for gennaker-asymmetrical spinnakers.... and NOT Code zero. Just sayin' read everything.. but I really love the though of putting one on my boat. I literally hate the sock. You cannot launch and retrieve from the cockpit without making extra trips to the foredeck. I ended up installing a cleat on the mast for the halyard and sock line, and an open cam cleat for the tackline.. Then I realized all I really needed was a "take down" line on the sail...which meant I could stay in the cockpit, let the sail go behind the main to collapse and pull the whole thing back under the boom... take down line in one hand, halyard in another and the tiller between my knees keeping the boat on a safe heading.

 

[ricksoth]

Joe - this is exactly where I'm heading now I think. The 72mm unit from Selden is around $900 and for my 6700# boat, the unsupported pole max from the bow fitting is 35", which puts it 24" in front of my pulpit. The poles show a line passing through the pole, which I understand but makes no sense (I think) when a top-down furler is fixed to the pole end via a snap shackle. How the pole works with the snap shackle is unknown currently.

How this plus the top-down furler (Selden GX7.5) works with my existing 33' asymmetrical luff length is still unknown to me. Does the sail's luff length or the hoist length determine the length of the anti-torsional rope in the final setup, and it's it's the full hoist length, is having the top swivel near the headstay going to be an issue? Maybe it's better to have it lower so it's "out-in-front" of the headstay some. This is where having a rigger involved seems appropriate. There is also now an adjustable tack swivel that rides on the AT rope which seems like something you would like, then maybe the poles center rope makes sense being attached to this gadget (Tack Adjuster) .

Thanks for your info. I wish you had pulled the plug 5 years ago and had the experience to share and been the envy of all your Mission Bay buddies.

Rick

 

[Joe]

Joe - this is exactly where I'm heading now I think. The 72mm unit from Selden is around $900 and for my 6700# boat, the unsupported pole max from the bow fitting is 35", which puts it 24" in front of my pulpit. The poles show a line passing through the pole, which I understand but makes no sense (I think) when a top-down furler is fixed to the pole end via a snap shackle. How the pole works with the snap shackle is unknown currently.

How this plus the top-down furler (Selden GX7.5) works with my existing 33' asymmetrical luff length is still unknown to me. Does the sail's luff length or the hoist length determine the length of the anti-torsional rope in the final setup, and it's it's the full hoist length, is having the top swivel near the headstay going to be an issue? Maybe it's better to have it lower so it's "out-in-front" of the headstay some. This is where having a rigger involved seems appropriate. There is also now an adjustable tack swivel that rides on the AT rope which seems like something you would like, then maybe the poles center rope makes sense being attached to this gadget (Tack Adjuster) .

Thanks for your info. I wish you had pulled the plug 5 years ago and had the experience to share and been the envy of all your Mission Bay buddies.

Rick

Rick, you might want to do a little more research on how the top down furlers work. It's not that complicated. The torsion line is there as a replacement to the foil, it transfers the rotational motion of the lower (drum) unit to the top of the sail.. The sail wraps around the line, but is not fixed at the luff the way an upwind sail is. The swivel is not bullky, so clearance should be easy... but you can always rig an extension, called a 'masthead crane" that gets the large swivel block well clear of the masthead. The furler's installation instructions will clarify all this for you.... There are plenty of systems to choose from, so I would go to work looking up each's installation instructions on line... You'll learn more doing this than getting confused by my amateurish explanations,

Oh, regarding hiring a rigger: Ask him/her for a consultation... and offer to pay him for his time if you choose not to hire him for installation and selling you the equipment. But... it could be major sticker shock if it's a big rigging company. A small time local will be more reasonable for guys in our league. But... I think it's a good idea to find out what to expect. Myself, I would spend plenty of time researching the products and getting advice from the manufacturer's or dealers. Good luck.

Btw, I would still consider adding the bowsprit if I could find someone to install it for me.... I'm almost 80.... I'm just not up to big projects on my own. A haul out for bottom paint and other chores this year will let me know what else is possible.

 

[garymalmgren]

Now, you could go home made with the spit, but I doubt you will end up being the you'll be "the envy of all the real sailors in your neck of the woods. "
This is my effort. Try not to laugh too loudly.

gary

 

[jssailem]

Nice Gary. I built a similar sprit using a thick walled aluminum pipe on my 15ft Montgomery. Worked great.

 

[BarryL]

Hello,

My experience with free flying furling sails (asymmetric spinnakers and Code 0) has been on bigger boats but the concepts are the same.

On my boat I have a a code 0 on a furler and an asymmetric spinnker (no furler or sock). The code 0 is tacked to a stop directly on front of the headsail furler.

My Asymmetric spinnaker is set on a removable bow sprit, about 2' in front of the forestay.

If you will use the furling unit on a removable bow sprit the adjustable tack line (the line running inside the bow sprit) is required because you need a LOT of tension on the torsion line to furl / unfurl the sail. You want the torsion line to rotate the top and bottom evenly, not just twist. The tension on the torsion line is what makes it spin and not twist. Once the sail is out and drawing you can ease the tackline to get the sail shape better. When it's time to douse (furl) the sail you need to tension the tack line again and then furl the sail.

I installed a Facnor removable sprit on my boat. I wanted the Selden unit but none were in stock so I went with Facnor. It was relatively easy to install. After sailing with the spinnaker in high winds I realized that I needed a bobstay to support the end of the pole. Note that my asymmetric is not on a furler but I still needed the bobstay to prevent the sprit from flexing upwards in high winds. I suspect that you would need a bobstay as well to keep the pole from bending up when you tension the torsion line, but I don't know the loads on smaller boats.

Good luck,
Barry

 

[MFD]

I installed a Selden on my boat ~7 years afo. I rarely use it, mostly just do lazy cruising.

A few thoughts though from experience on other boats…

1. With that size of boat, everything might actually be easier without the sock, with sufficient practice. I had an Islander 30 and got very good at dousing the chute by blanketing it with the main (and jib if also up), pole all the way forward and strapping the sheet in close. Working on the foredeck I got really good and letting halyard out and stuffing it down the foredeck hatch. What was left on deck with the strapped foot and bulk of the sail ‘down the hatch’ as it were, was pretty easy to finish up.

From time spent racing on ~10m boats with assyms, I think a similar technique would work.

2. With my current torsion system, for sure about tension on the torsion line for it to work well. Calculate that vertical static load into bowsprit requirements.

3. I left the furled apinnaker rigged up for a couple months in summer, but it can be a hazard if the wind picks up.

3A. How are the furled spinnaker sheets going to work with them rigged and also using your jib?

4. These are lightweight nylon sails. The UV from sunlight is going to take a toll.

5. You want a couple feet from the forestay to the furler. I do not have that much but mostly use it downwind and reaching with a good amount of tack line out depending on trim. I have a fractional rig and only issue is ironically my newer jib wanting to pull in the spinnaker halyard when the torsion line is not deployed and the spinnaker halyard judiciously led aft/away.

6. Did I mention that you need a LOT of tension on the torsion for it to furl well?

I would spend a summer season playing around with different techniques to take down the spinnaker solo without the sock before installing this.