Toilet bowl unwanted filling

[jviss]

Ha, that's great, Jim. That pump assembly is only $10 more than the rebuild kit I'm looking at! I wonder if that would work with my W-C bowl.

By the way, I checked my plumbing, and there is no vented loop for the head, at all, the vented loop I found is for the shower sump pump.

 

[jviss]

Just thinking, I always thought the W-C Skipper was the ultimate marine head. They used to put them on Hinckley's, with gold-plated hardware. My friend's Nonsuch had one, it was a rugged, reliable beast. They cost more now, used, than most new heads.

 

[JamesG161]

Normally the Hold Tank is lower in elevation than the Bowl discharge, thus with the High Point "seal loop" no slosh back.
The Joker ( a joke to be called a valve) should stop "slosh back" in High Seas.
Jim...

 

[JosefR]

SOME MORE INFO:
I managed to temporarily stop the bowl filling by setting the diverter valve to overboard and closing the overboard through hull valve.

Additionally, when pumping, I am hearing a raspy hissing sound which makes me think the hose clamp on the sanitation hose exiting the toilet is not secure. It did leak badly when I first installed it 2 weeks ago, so I adjusted it and retightened it. Maybe it's leaking air, but no liquid. Could this be contributing to the siphoning problem?

 

[JamesG161]

Could this be contributing to the siphoning problem?

Without knowing the relative elevations of your bowl to the Actual Boat Water Level (AWL), it is hard to answer.
I can say this about water flowing (no pump) to a spot that is normally dry.
1) The source of the water is higher elevation than the bowl.
2) Siphons must originate at a higher elevation than the discharge.
3) With all valve REALLY closed, there can be no siphon.

Guessing...
You have a leaking valve that is below your boat's AWL and the toilet bowl is below that leaking valve.

Jim...

 

[JosefR]

I don't think so. I have just eliminated the overboard thru-hull and the salt water intake thru-hull with the latest setting. The only thru-hull left is the macerator overboard thru-hull, which is never used. It cannot be leaking, because the Blackwater tank remains empty, more or less. The only other "valve" that it can be is the joker, which I assume needs replacing after one year of use (26 weekends). Have I left a valve out?

"3) With all valve REALLYclosed, there can be no siphon."

Again, I don't think so. In the leaking configuration, overboard closed, diverter to blackwater, there is a half inch vent hose that could allow movement.

Finally, shouldn't my problem be impossible with a functioning joker valve?

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have been reading this thread with interest as I have the same issue. Purchased the Twist & Lock pump, 20 minute install, and it works like a charm.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Again, I don't think so. In the leaking configuration, overboard closed, diverter to blackwater, there is a half inch vent hose that could allow movement.

Nope...there's no way that a tank vent can cause or even allow a siphon to start in any line that carries liquid.

Finally, shouldn't my problem be impossible with a functioning joker valve?

Only temporarily until enough flushes have gone through it open it enough to leak even a little. It'll start as slow seepage, then increase in volume as the slit is stretched further open.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I checked my plumbing, and there is no vented loop for the head, at all, the vented loop I found is for the shower sump pump.

Whoever installed your toilet obviously didn't bother to read the instructions. From the installation/operation instructions for the WC Headmate:
Note: If Toilet is installed at or near the waterline, a vented loop must be used with any connections to an overboard fitting. On the intake side, the vented loop must be installed between Pump and Bowl.
Most manufacturers include drawings showing the vented loop locations in their instructions...W-C didn't.

 

[JosefR]

Only temporarily until enough flushes have gone through it open it enough to leak even a little. It'll start as slow seepage, then increase in volume as the slit is stretched further open.

You lost me here. I flush till there's nothing left and I'm flushing air. The joker should close. Unless there is something wrong with it, it should stay closed. You're saying no. Why?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Joker valves are soft rubber...they wear out. Pushing anything through 'em, even just water, stretches thc slit and the "lips.". You shouldn't be able to see daylight through a brand new one...but after as few a couple dozen flushes, you will be able to...and with continued use, more and more daylight, till eventually the slit becomes a hole you can stick your finger through. Salt and sea water minerals, even hard water minerals in fresh water, can also build up on joker valves as well as the insides of hoses, distorting 'em and preventing 'em from closing...even blocking them.

 

[JosefR]

Oh, ok, that just confirms that I probably do not have a functioning joker valve, which was the original question. New Raritan replacement is on the way.

 

[jviss]

Whoever installed your toilet obviously didn't bother to read the instructions. From the installation/operation instructions for the WC Headmate:
Note: If Toilet is installed at or near the waterline, a vented loop must be used with any connections to an overboard fitting. On the intake side, the vented loop must be installed between Pump and Bowl.
Most manufacturers include drawings showing the vented loop locations in their instructions...W-C didn't.

Catalina installed it. And it may just be that the top of the bowl is at least 8" above the waterline at any angle of heel, which would satisfy the requirement, no?

Oh, and you are incorrect about W-C's instructions. There is a drawing, on page two. Look here:
http://www.chessie.com/boat/documents/Head-Mate.WC.pdf

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Thanks for that link! Although the ones I have in my files still have W-C's logo on them, they were obviously created after Thetford bought W-C. Yours will replace 'em in my files.

it may just be that the top of the bowl is at least 8" above the waterline at any angle of heel, which would satisfy the requirement, no?

Nope. Production boat builders almost never install intake vented loops 'cuz that's an added expense and the toilet works without it. They leave it to the owner to learn--not the hard way if they're lucky--that relying on the wet/dry valve to keep water outside the boat from finding its own level INside the boat is good way to sink a boat. The top of your bowl may be 8" above waterline when the boat's at rest but no way it can be above waterline at all at max heel. On a sailboat, the loop has to be 2-3 FEET above the bowl to put it 6-8 inches above waterline at max heel.

 

[jviss]

My toilet does not plumb directly to a through-hull, only to the holding tank. The holding tank only goes to a through hull through a macerator pump, and that through-hull's seacock is always closed, unless 'macerating' - pumping overboard. I don't see the issue here. And, the surveyor and insurance company were fine with it, as was, apparently, Catalina's insurance company.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

If your toilet uses sea water, it is plumbed directly to a thru-hull. In which case you do need a vented loop in the intake...installed between the pump and the bowl. Read your toilet's installation instructions!!

 

[jviss]

I did read the instructions. That's not what the W-C installation instructions say, they only recommend a vented loop for the discharge line, and don't show one, or recommend one, for the intake line. Maybe you should read them.

Siphoning through the pump? I don't think so.

 

[Stu Jackson]

jviss, the line that Peggie mentions is the white short one that comes with every head, between the pump and the bowl. THAT'S where the vented loop needs to go.

That would be part #6 on page 2. I'll leave it to Peggie to explain why the shown VL is wrong, other than the fact that she's done so many times before. And probably in this thread.

I have a friend in Chicago who has been to lazy to put one in but he spends endless hours opening and closing his head intake every time he uses it to avoid sinking. Geez...go figger...

 

[jviss]

Stu, I hear you, and Peggy, too. But I haven't ha d a problem with it, in 16 years of sailing it. I close the seacock if I'm leaving it for a week, but cruising, it's always open. The bowl is above the waterline, I'm certain. If C36's were sinking because of this, we'd hear about it!
Your friend's must have a faulty pump. But unless the rim is below the waterline, he's not going to sink. The bowl might fill, right up to the waterline, I suppose, but it won't sink. And, it's not siphoning, unless the waterline is higher than the water level in the toilet.

I pump mine dry, and it stays dry.

Maybe it's a thing for the list, to put in a vent in the pump-to-bowl line, but it's not at the top of the list right now.

 

[JamesG161]

Vented loops only work if there is a vacuum at the vent, which is caused by liquid flowing from a higher elevations SOURCE to lower elevations DESTINATION in a liquid full line.
Normally a high point loop seal works!

Once any air is introduced to the line, it is NOT liquid full. No siphon!

Once a the flow STOPS, the down hill lined drains EMPTIS. No siphon! [Closed valves stop flow]

@JosefR Put some Food Coloring in the Water, pump it out. If it is a flow back , you will know.

Jim...