To sell or not??

jviss · Jun 25, 2007

No ethical problem here

I don't think there's an ethical issue here. Offering something for sale to gauge interest or price is not uncommon in business or in individual or personal commerce. There is no contract. It would be unethical to put someone through trouble and expense beyond inquiring if there was no intention to sell, or no goods at all.

higgs · Jun 25, 2007

jviss

I think selling boats is different. It is not uncommen for somone to travel a considerable distance to look at a boat. I have dealt with people who drove a couple of hours one way to look at a boat even in this price range. Add to that one's decision making time - can I really afford this...etc. To make a trip like that only to find out the guy was just kidding would piss me off.

Scott · Jun 25, 2007

The inexperience of youth!

It sounds like Brian got lucky enough to find the one inexperienced buyer in the area who was willing to pay the asking price for his little boat ... and Brian walks away!Good luck next year!

Oh, BTW, Brian apparently turned away from a legitimate puchaser and re-listed for a higher price (still unsure if he is willing to sell). So his scam continues and he sounds unsure of what to do.Brian, if you are not going to sell, why not start by taking the listing down?

jviss · Jun 25, 2007

Agree, sort of

Higgs,Different than what? Houses? Cars, motorcycles, tractors, horses, guns, dishes? I said I didn't think it was ethical to put someone through trouble or expense without an intention to sell. That said, if someone travels without making sure the item is for sale, that's their problem. It perfectly legit to withdraw something that was formerly for sale, or to raise the price if you get a ton of interest, or to sell it through some other channel. An advertisement, especially in craig's, is an entirely speculative affair. There's no contract or promise involved. Intentionally leading folks into expense and trouble isn't right, though.

higgs · Jun 25, 2007

Maybe I misunderstood

Jviss,Looked to me like you were saying that there was "no ethical problem here" and defended the statement by saying this practice is not uncommen in business, which I took to mean corporations wheeling and dealing for ownership. Buying boats, or houses, or cars is, to me , not a dog eat dog type of environment that buying and selling businesses is. Perhaps I am niave here. I know some people don't make a disctinction between the dog eat dog environment of business and that of retail sales. Those are certainly the businesses and individuals I avoid.I have never dealt with anyone offering a car, or house, or boat for sale and then, when the offer comes in, saying I changed my mind. I suppose it does happen as exampled here. When I put something up for sale I am not trying to fool anyone about anything. It is for sale and I will even tell them what the problems with the item are. I try to be as straight forward as possible. I would rather be thought of as an honest, straight shooter than a shrewd business man.

jviss · Jun 25, 2007

I still agree!

Higgs,I agree, I don't knowingly "fool" people. But If I did offer something for sale and before I made a deal found out that it was worth substantially more than I originally asked, I would have no qualms about withdrawing the offer for sale or raising the price. In addition, if I wanted to know what something I had was worth and had no other way to do it, I might offer it for sale to see if there's interest. I don't see a problem with this, as long as I didn't jerk someone around. From your previous example, what if someone had driven hours to see a boat but found when they go there that the guy who got there 1/2 hour before them bought it? Is there any foul?

higgs · Jun 25, 2007

jviss

That is the way it goes- no foul play. First guy with the green gets it. I once sold a car. One guy made me an offer I turned down, and he said if anyone came along and offered more, he wanted me to call him. I said OK because at the time he caught me off guard and I did not know what to say. He was upset when I sold the car to a guy with money in hand. I should have straight out told the first guy that whoever showed first with the money I wanted got the car. My mistake.

higgs · Jun 25, 2007

Depends on when you are there

If I called you on the phone and you said I have decided not to sell then no problem - a phone call is not much trouble.If I arranged with you to see the boat, thinking you were selling, got to the boat and then you tell me it is not really for sale I would feel you had not been upfront and honest with me.

abe · Jun 25, 2007

Its funny how people justify their actions...

Brian, say you were buying a car, or boat. You found that dream boat you always wanted and you have been looking for months and months and months. When you approach the seller...oops I want more money than what I originally asked for (because I didn't expect such a quick response). How would you feel?I don't know how old you are...but in my generation that shows lack of character and man who's word means nothing. Welcome to the 21st century, I guess. I think its also called "bait and switch"...even if it was not orginally inteded to be.abe

Liam · Jun 25, 2007

Not a scammer

Brian, I do not think that you are a scammer. But as Abe points out, you most certianly lack character and integrity. It is not genetic. You were most likely raised that way and were never taught what it means to be a man. Not an uncommon condition.Hopefully with time and experience you will learn those things or at least learn to keep it to yourself because most people will not appreciate or agree with your values.

Scott · Jun 26, 2007

This is an odd thread ...

Brian, what are you trying to get out of this topic? It sounds like you are happy with your boat and you want to keep it. Why did you put it up for sale?No offense to other owners of this boat model, but it doesn't sound like there is anything particularly special about it. Is it just your everyday run-of-the-mill sailboat, similar to the boats many of us own and love anyway?What would you do with the money if you did sell it? It sounds like you would just want to get another crummy old boat. I say this derisively, not because I have anything against the boat, but because your intentions seem foolish if you would rather keep the boat you have (and there is nothing wrong with that).In retrospect, it sounds like there was no harm ... no foul. You got one nibble from a guy who didn't sound serious to begin with (even at the lower price), you showed him a good time and had a good time yourself. It sounds like you simply increased the price because you got a quick call ... not because you had an offer (it is hard to tell because you are being evasive about the sequence of events - don't worry, we're not that interested). Now you have the boat listed at a price that may be unrealistic and you probably won't get any serious calls ... but who knows?The whole thing sounds a little silly and immature, so you shouldn't be surprised that a bunch of grizzled old goats jump all over you for it. Live and learn. I think that you got the message that you don't get any respect from people who think you are playing them for a fool.

Brian D · Jun 26, 2007

I see nothing wrong in what Brian did...

I have done the same thing. It is common practice to list an item and decided to not sell it. I listed my Lancer 27 last year when I thought I would purchase a Yamaha 33. The Yamaha was not what I wanted and I took the listing off. But in the mean time, I got 4 calls on the Lancer.This tells me something. That my Lancer is wanted. I was concerned that I would not be able to sell the boat if I sized up. But now I know that I should have no problem when the actual time comes to size up.Brian has done nothing wrong, in my humble opine. However, I have not read every post here word for word.

Tom Spohn · Jun 26, 2007

Offer and Acceptance

Until I retired, I worked in contracting. When someone wants to sell something they "offer" it for sale. When the buyer "accepts" the offer and agreement is reached on the "Terms and Conditions" of the offer, the contract is made. In my business it would be considered "sharp practice" (ie. legal but not ethical) to rescind the offer unless there was an obvious error in the offer--like offering a $6,000 boat for $600 because you failed to catch the error during proofreading. It is considered OK for an offer to be made where the seller clearly states, "Seller reserves the right to refuse any and all offers", and makes it clear that he just wants to check out the market. You might do this if, for example, you had an old boat and wanted to see if it was better to fix it up or to sell it and buy a new one. If the seller really is not sure they want to sell or not--maybe depending on the price, the seller will usually leave the price open and state, "Make an offer--I reserve the right to choose or reject any and all."

SEADANCE · Jun 26, 2007

re: To Sell Or Not

I would be extremely frustrated if I were to show up to look at a boat to be told then or somewhere after a conversation or two that no its no longer for sale or got the I'm not sure I want to let go of her just yet kind of thing..I'd like more money for her. If it was a phone call and they said no I changed my mind, I'd get over it. This past year's search, I ran into a lot of people with boat listings that even with their new boats were still attached to the one they were trying to sell. Thats understandable.We dealt with the "Octegenarian dropping the anchor after a 25 plus year love affair boat". It took 2 months to get him to agree that if we showed up with money in hand we wanted to buy it then and there and not have him change his mind several times in the process about the amount or string us along or pull a fast one when we showed up(We ended up not buying that boat for other visible boat reasons). I say if your not serious or ready to let go, don't list it. When we decided to sell the Irwin...there was no turning back and off she went. If you re-list it again they may jump at the chance to go for it again or they may look at the listing and say he's not serious and not give it a second look. My question is...The guy offered to take you and your girlfriend out to dinner....did you take him up on it?

Seattle Scott · Jun 26, 2007

I should offer full asking plus 10%

contingent on a test sail tomorrow at a time inconvienent to the seller, then after the test sail "Thanks, I just wanted to see how these boats handle, before I start making offers this winter."Of course it is unethical to advertise something for sale if there is no intention to sell, which is different from intending to sell and then changing your mind before you can cancel the ad.

sailortonyb Allied Mis · Jun 26, 2007

bordering illegal

From what I understand, the basic premise of law is offer and acceptance. If you make an offer and I accept the offer without making any changes, then you are bound by law to accept. Example: my X-wife was hounding (more like stalking) me. She used the legal system to her advantage including illegal tactics such as a slew of frivolous law suits(Barratry - I think its called. Anyway, she sent a letter to my atty saying that she would disappear from my life for $6,000. Long story on that one. Anyway, I told atty that she wasnt going to get a penny more from me. Well, he worked and worked on me till he finally convinced me that she would be gone if I accepted the offer. I cracked under the pressure, LOL, and said OK. Well, when I accepted, she backed out, changed her mind. My atty took her to court and the judge ruled that she HAD to accept. I hated writing that check, but atty was right, havent heard from her in over 7 years.Anyway, In most cases like this, its not even close to being worth the price of a lawsuit. I am not an atty, so I may have some innacuracy here. Tony BWhat I was questioning at the early part of this thread, was whether this story was even true. It just sounded to me like he was using this 'cover' story to describe all the features and options of his boat and how much he wanted. There was way more info on his boat than most ads would ever have. Anyway, he edited his replies and removed anything that sounded like an ad. I could be wrong, its been known to happen. Sorry if I offended thee.

Brian D · Jun 26, 2007

sailortonyb...

not true, and if you were to bring this up in a court of law, you would not win. The only time it becomes illegal is if you have a binding written contract. A verbal agreement is based on good faith, nothing else.Now, your example is different. That is border line extortion, nothing else. Advertising something for sale, accepting the funds for said product, then not receiving said product is illegal. Advertising a product then deciding not to sell the product is not illegal. There may be ethical considerations, but ethics is not based on law.Being unethical is one thing, being unlawful is totally different.And yes, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

jviss · Jun 26, 2007

Lighten up!

Holy Mackerel, This sounds like a bunch of old, stuffy old farts who have nothing better to do than criticize someone for a big nothing! Especially Liam, with his high and might judgment that Brian "most certianly lack(s) character and integrity", "were most likely raised that way and were never taught what it means to be a man." Liam, If you said that to someone in person you'd be risking a black eye. And Tom with his "offer and acceptance" contracting baloney, and Tony B's "bordering illegal" hogwash. Are you guys kidding? This was a post on craigslist, for goodness' sake. It's kin to beer talk. It's like shouting anonymously "hey, I've got something to sell, anyone out there?" Likewise the "buyers" are rarely sincere, honest, upstanding individuals upholding the highest standards of long established formal business conduct. Far from it! So let me ask you who are so quick to judge. How many of you keep business records for all of your private transactions? How many of you pay state and local sales tax for your private transactions? Did you know that in many places it is required by law? How many of you pay your local sales taxes for all of your mail order and internet purchases? Did you consider that where you live it may be required by law? Of course, if any of you were even close to correct, regarding the legality and moral content, there wouldn't be any need for anything like a contract, like a legal purchase and sale agreement, for anything in writing, or even for lawyers or courts, for that matter.If I'm selling something and the guy who shows up rubs me the wrong way, I can choose not to sell it to him - which I've done! If I don't like the cut of his jib, or think he may give me grief down the line, or if he's just surly, he's disqualified. There's no law about being picky, choosing not to sell, changing your mind, or anything else like that in private transactions. If Brian were running a business he'd be subject to stricter standards. But he's not! Several of you guys are way out of line for what you've said of or to him, in applying your own personal moral or ethical standards to him - which I doubt many of you would follow yourselves if push cam to shove.

Ross · Jun 26, 2007

There are many times that I have seen

an advertizment for real estate with an overprinting diagonally across the copy stating "WITHDRAWN". These ads are often over the name of an auctioneer or a lawyer.

To sell or not??

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