to furl in mast, or not?

[Banooma]

I'm tossing up this question to understand where others find pros and cons. I've had a trailer sailer that had no flaking system, unless you count a couple of bungees. Then, I had a standard lazy jack flaking system on my next boat. It was good. I've used the dutchman flaking system that came with my Catalina until it came time to replace the main sail, and at that point I converted to the North Sails Quickcover stack pack thingy. The I find the latter to be best from my experience. It doesn't completely eliminate the need to step up to the mast, but to me, the pros from this flaking solution far outweigh the cons from the others. I have not tried in-mast furling. As I start to consider the possibility of a newer boat, I see that there appears to be a division between the major production brands. There are many other differences between brands, but it seems Catalinas and Hunters seem to be popularly fitted with in-mast, while Jeanneau and Beneteau favor stack packy flaking. I think I'd prefer full battens and the security in knowing that I can drop my mainsail into my cover without worrying about an in-mast getting jammed while the sail is up/out. How important is the mainsail system to you, and what kinds of factors play into which you prefer?

 

[capta]

Very simply, who in their right mind wouldn't want infinite reefing which is nearly foolproof unless the operator screws things up?

 

[JamesG161]

infinite reefing which is nearly foolproof [in favor of in-mast furling]

It is a Safety Device too.
You can manage reefing your main sail from the cockpit, in high seas.
____
In mast furling is just a mechanism.
Only people who don't know how to operate that mechanism are foolish.
______
The Admiral and I can unfurl our 17' 6" footed main in < 2 minutes. [think of wench cranks ≈6 inch per revolution]

We take a bit more time to furl to make sure we work the mechanism correctly... ≈4 minutes.

No other choice for us.

IN MAST FURLING
Jim...

PS: Mechanisms must be maintained too. Our plague is mud daubers fouling the swivel, each spring.

 

[Davidasailor26]

For in mast furling. Our Beneteau has it (I thought most new ones did) and the convenience of being able to reef whenever and how ever much we want is really nice. Mid-race we can go up and down in sail area as the conditions and wind angles warrant. At the end of the day there’s no flaking, covering, climbing on deck, or anything else to deal with. Within 30 seconds of the end of the sail the main is away and done with.

It’s not a perfect system - certainly we do lose some valuable sail area by having vertical battens instead of horizontal, and it can foul if not handled just right. We’ve never had a jam when furling, and never had one unfurling that couldn’t be cleared by re-furling and starting over. The furling mechanism will be less tolerant of blown out sails than slab reefing, and the furling process does cause extra wear on the batten pockets, so it may be more off-season sail upkeep.

Now excuse me while I go get some popcorn to enjoy the rest of the thread I’m sure will follow.

 

[shemandr]

Whether or not I’m in my right mind is an very much an open question. I’ve posted before about all the trouble I had with my Selden in mast furling system. So there is another side to the story. I had jams, an instance when the flailing clew assembly exploded a block posing a serious hazard, full length vertical battens that wouldn’t stay in their pockets (And scratch the dodger), and major physical exertion in trying to furl the sail by myself in winds over 15 kts. That’s not to mention the fact that the tuning of the rig, the angle of the boom, pre- bend, vang, halyard tension, and sail cloth choice, cut of the mainsail, are all governed by the in mast furling. It’s all about the furling. That is my experience. Give me the Stack Pack any day.

 

[Banooma]

It's reading impassioned arguments like this that make me seriously second guess the single handing bliss of in mast systems.

 

[capta]

Whether or not I’m in my right mind is an very much an open question. I’ve posted before about all the trouble I had with my Selden in mast furling system. So there is another side to the story. I had jams, an instance when the flailing clew assembly exploded a block posing a serious hazard, full length vertical battens that wouldn’t stay in their pockets (And scratch the dodger), and major physical exertion in trying to furl the sail by myself in winds over 15 kts. That’s not to mention the fact that the tuning of the rig, the angle of the boom, pre- bend, vang, halyard tension, and sail cloth choice, cut of the mainsail, are all governed by the in mast furling. It’s all about the furling. That is my experience. Give me the Stack Pack any day.

Amazing. Three trips to and from the Caribbean, untold voyages interisland in the Leewards and Windwards between Trinidad and St. T, 4 charter seasons and not one single thing you mentioned, we had happen. Even with a seriously blown out very old tape drive mainsail, since replaced. On a 1981 Hood Stoway system.
Perhaps yours was just a poor installation?

 

[danstanford]

I wish I had some roach for racing but in every other way my furling main is bliss. It can jam if you aren't paying attention but if that happens run it the other way for 6" and it invariably comes out no problem. So easy when daysailing to just haul it out in seconds and put it completely away as we motor back into the marina.

 

[Rich Stidger]

Banooma asked about in-mast furling vs another system. Most if not all production boats use mast furling. And with wide acceptance, I conclude that it is a good option.

However, I have heard from my friends who have such a system that it can jam- and sometimes be hard to un-jam. I have no direct experience.

But I did convert my standard boom to a Schaefer Boom Furling about 5 years ago. My only regret is not converting 20 years ago.

If you have a choice, and you probably don't unless you buy a conventional system and then have a boom furler installed yourself, choose a boom furling system over a mast furling system. Of the two major furling systems available, the Leisure Furl and the Schaefer, both will offer the advantages of full battens, easy reefing at many convenient points (not infinite though), and should a jam develop you can drop the sail to the deck instead of dealing with a flogging half-in, half-out disaster. The sail cover just slides and covers the boom opening. This is super simple on the Leisure Furl and almost as easy with the Schaefer. My Schaefer cover comes off in under 2 minutes and goes on in under 4 minutes. And you don't need to climb over a bimini to do this.

After careful research, I chose the Schaefer system although it was a few thousand bucks more expensive. I saw the additional Schaefer advantages of reefing 45-60 degrees off the wind. It has an articulating sail track that rotates with the boom so the sail always drops straight into the boom with no bending. The sail track is also designed to eliminate sail jamming by taking the load off the sail luff.

The only downside I can see for either system is that you need an electric halyard winch to raise and lower the sail. That could be an additional 4K if you don't already have one.

 

[markwbird]

In mast furlers jamb. They do. Often when it’s good and windy just when you need them to work. Also, you don’t get good sail shape and no battens.

 

[capta]

The only downside I can see for either system is that you need an electric halyard winch to raise and lower the sail. That could be an additional 4K if you don't already have one.

Why do you say this? We don't have an electric halyard winch and I can see no reason for one. I put our main up just like any other system, pull by hand until it needs to be on the winch and crank it till it is tight, but then it stays up until I need to bring it down, months later. The one thing I would change is to put an old style wire winches on the main and jib, so there are no halyards hanging on the mast.
The big problem I've had folks I've talked to personally (on boats from 40 feet to well over 150) tell me about boom furling is that a lot of the time on some, all the time on many, it requires someone at the gooseneck to feed the sail into the track going up the mast. This would seem to preclude this system as a good option for single handing or heavy weather offshore sailing.
The other thing I forgot to mention is that with the in-mast we can furl, set or reef the sail on almost any point of sail, which means no flogging, something I like a lot. In lighter air we can even set/douse the sail on a dead run, if we keep the boom amidships.

 

[capta]

In mast furlers jamb. They do. Often when it’s good and windy just when you need them to work. Also, you don’t get good sail shape and no battens.

Inmast furlers do not jam any more than boats run aground; OPERATORS jam them!

 

[Rich Stidger]

Why do you say this? We don't have an electric halyard winch and I can see no reason for one. I put our main up just like any other system, pull by hand until it needs to be on the winch and crank it till it is tight, but then it stays up until I need to bring it down, months later. The one thing I would change is to put an old style wire winches on the main and jib, so there are no halyards hanging on the mast.
The big problem I've had folks I've talked to personally (on boats from 40 feet to well over 150) tell me about boom furling is that a lot of the time on some, all the time on many, it requires someone at the gooseneck to feed the sail into the track going up the mast. This would seem to preclude this system as a good option for single handing or heavy weather offshore sailing.
The other thing I forgot to mention is that with the in-mast we can furl, set or reef the sail on almost any point of sail, which means no flogging, something I like a lot. In lighter air we can even set/douse the sail on a dead run, if we keep the boom amidships.

You must be very much stronger than I am. Raising the sail is more effort than just the weight of the sail. it is also the unrolling in the boom and pulling the mainsail reefing line onto the spool. I guess you could do it by hand, but it would be a lot of effort IMO.
Regarding feeding the sail at the gooseneck- I have never done this. My system feeds flawlessly.

 

[capta]

it is also the unrolling in the boom and pulling the mainsail reefing line onto the spool.

I guess I misunderstood your last post? Did you not say "either system" requires an electric halyard winch? This post seems to indicate only the boom furling would require one, as "unrolling in the boom and pulling the mainsail reefing line onto the spool" has nothing to do with inmast hoisting as far as I can tell.

 

[chuckwayne]

All systems have issues, once you understand the in-mast system it's generally reliable; we've had no major issues in 19 years. We have (now) a cruising laminate main, which, while somewhat more expensive than a regular dacron sail, got back some of our roach and has perfect shape even though battenless. It's great to be able to dial in exactly the amount of main you want, all from the cockpit in an instant. we've reefed in a sudden 30kt squall with no issues.

 

[Rich Stidger]

I guess I misunderstood your last post? Did you not say "either system" requires an electric halyard winch? This post seems to indicate only the boom furling would require one, as "unrolling in the boom and pulling the mainsail reefing line onto the spool" has nothing to do with inmast hoisting as far as I can tell.

Yes, I meant either the Leisure Furl or the Scheafer boom furling systems. Not a standard boom system. I should have been more clear.

 

[JamesG161]

The key to the Halyard is to find the "sweet spot" that both top and bottom swivels [of the mechanism] work smoothly.
Once that "Sweet spot" is found [took me 2 tries], you mark that Halyard spot and DONE, for the life of that sail.
If you take you main down for a season, just install it again to that "Sweet spot".

You should NOT use an electric Halyard, since the main sail Luff must be feed into in-mast Foil Slot.

This is Luff part of a Main Sail sewn in by the Sail Loft. My Sail Maker came with samples to see which size cord he needed for my In-Mast Foil by ZSpars.
The Halyard runs inside the slotted Aluminum Foil or the spindle that your main wraps around.
______-

Inmast furlers do not jam any more than boats run aground; OPERATORS jam them!

We bought our boat and the in-mast was a new mechanism.
Guess what?
We, the Operators, jammed it.

Later, we realized our boat's main was OEM and 16 yrs old. It had stretched out near the Clew. Too much extra sail [at the foot] was being forced [jammed] into the mast, by the Operators.

Our new Main goes in and out, smooth as Silk, by trained Operators of the mechanism.



Happy sailboaters now...
Jim...

PS: My ICON picture show how much extra sail we had so we didn't jam it, and our new main was on order then.

 

[Jerry Clark H356 SV Persi]

I had one major jam and had to get professional help to get the sail back out. I was motorsailing into the wind in 30 knots and 6 ft waves on a section of the Cumberland River/Lake Barkley this past spring. My 16 year old sail was ready for replacement as was my running rigging. My outhaul broke and my main was flogging in the wind. I rolled it in but did not know at the time that my tack had torn out too and with a tight halyard, the lower part of the sail shot up the mast. I had a real mess. I destroyed the sail getting it out.
I am awaiting my replacement sails - North CDI Cruising sails - which are molded to the correct airfoil shape and should wrap inside the mast more compactly than my original 2003 Dacron UK sails. I have installed new very low stretch halyards and running rigging and should have my new sails in 2 weeks. The problems I had were self made. Blown out sails and worn out rigging in 30 knots of wind on the nose. Can’t blame the furling system for my own mistakes.
Have sailed my boat just shy of 10,000 miles in 17 seasons since new. Hope to get at least 10 years of no problems with these high tech North CDI cruising sails. To properly use in mast furling, the boom angle needs to be correct, the halyard tensioned correctly and when furling in, the proper tension needs to be on the clew to avoid bunching up and overlap. An aged blown out sail will give you problems. All my furling issues were my own lack of procedure and paying close attention to the details.

 

[jngotasail]

I'm new to in mast roller reefing as well. I have had no problems with it last season. but it has been on my mind " what would i do if it jammed"? Well couldn't I de power the sail by either letting the halyard loose or the out haul?

 

[JamesG161]

Well couldn't I de power the sail by either letting the halyard loose or the out haul?

Since you can only jam it furling, stop immediately [ do not force it] and pull it out again.
Remember you are doing the "forcing".
Slow furling means less jamming force.
_____
It will normally jam at the foot, where the maximum wrapped sail is located.

We got it unjammed once by jerking on the outhaul line, at the boom.

The only way to drop the halyard is if the sail is completely unfurled.
_____
If in an emergency, I would use a couple of bungee cords to wrap and bind the excess sail to the mast.
Jim...