Tiller .vs. Wheel

Joe · Feb 14, 2022

jviss said:
Maybe there's confusion about what "points" means. If you are referring to the direction pointed to by the rudder's leading edge, then yes, you would be right. But that's not the traditional definition of rudder directions. Merriam Webster has"

"Definition of right rudder
: a position of a ship's rudder that will turn the ship to the right —often used as a command."

I'm getting a headache. I cannot imagine giving a "right rudder" command in a tiller steered boat. Talk about confusing.
All I've ever known that makes sense is that a traditional rudder steers the back of the boat if it is located there. The leading edge of the rudder would point in the direction the driver wants the stern move. The tiller is directly connected to the rudder. It is not hinged or geared or attached with any kind of tackle. It's like the relationship between an oar's handle and its blade, it works as one tool. Therefore, in order to point the boat in one direction (the bow indicating that direction) the stern of the boat needs to go in the opposite direction, which requires pointing the rudder the same way using the tiller. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the fundamental issue that some folks have with tillers... they think it's counter intuitive to point the driving stick in the opposite direction they want to steer.

According your "right rudder command quote": Right rudder defines the ship's direction, not the rudder's. It makes no mention of the rudder's direction, just its position to make the ship go right. And we all know that to make the ship go right, the rudder must be pointed to the left.... oh... it's so confusing...

Finally, if I come across the book section that describes my original misguided comment... I'll certainly bring it to your attention. Like I said, it was quite some time ago and I may have misunderstood...........but I can't recall the author series. I have read, over the past 60+ years, so many of them, like Forrester (hornblower), O'Brian (Aubrey/Maturin) Kent (Bolitho), Julian stockin (Kydd), Lambdin ( Lewrie), woodman (Drinkwater), Parkinson (Delancy) Pope (Ramage), David Danouche, etc...... I have them read multiple times. (not kent, there's like 38 books, so I just pick out the best to re read) Hornblower was the first, in 8th grade, that got me interested in sailing, or maybe it was why I joined the Navy, dunno... can't remember, heh, heh.
If you're interested, I highly recommend the Richard woodman (Drinkwater) series. I think there are about 13 books, and it comes to a conclusion like the hornblower books. Another really good one is by a living author, Julian stockwin, the hero is Thomas Kydd. I'm behind in those... he's prolific. 15 or 20 books so far.

These types of books are my nautical source... not the dictionary... Maybe that's my problem.

Will Gilmore · Feb 14, 2022

Joe said:
These types of books are my nautical source... not the dictionary... Maybe that's my problem.

I would expect the authors of those books to have done the research and to have an understanding of such things. I would assume they wrote those books out of a deep personal interest. However, I have read books, supposedly about such subjects, in which, for example, a murderer made his escape sailing a fast "racing sloop" from NYC to Miami, against the Gulf Stream so he made good time, getting ahead of his pursuers, with both his main and mizzen sails drawing full. Ha :facepalm:

.

More than one fiction book of the sea has been written in complete ignorance of sailing.

Wheel or tiller or XBOX controller, whatever. In my head it's about the angle of the rudder. No problems. For a lubber, it can be hard to understand. Remember that schooner that got run over by a tanker on the river in Germany? They pushed the tiller the wrong way, and the captain was there too.

-Will

Dr. D · Feb 14, 2022

Will Gilmore said:
More than one fiction book of the sea has been written in complete ignorance of sailing.

More than one fiction book on any subject has been written in compete ignorance of the subject.

Unlike the six novels (murder mystery) my sister wrote and had published. For one of them, important passages happened in a fire observation station / fire house in the PNW. So she went and visited one. The crew was quite happy to discuss the procedures and equipment with her.

What were we talking about?

Jumpstart · Feb 14, 2022

jviss said:
Not everyone would agree. Some pretty big sailboats were tiller steered, for centuries! And, much bigger than 35'.

II don't understand the unfeasibility of the autopilot comment, though. Was it undersized for the vessel?

Quartering and breaking seas with short period waves. Performance light boats have trouble tracking straight in this conditions . Look at big race boats. Most all have wheels.

DArcy · Feb 14, 2022

Jumpstart said:
Quartering and breaking seas with short period waves. Performance light boats have trouble tracking straight in this conditions . Look at big race boats. Most all have wheels.

Open 60s usually have tillers. Maybe it's just a solo sailer thing

Jumpstart · Feb 14, 2022

Curious, how many open 60s out there. Other than a flat out race boat how many production boats over 35’ today have tillers? Not many. A lot of modern designs 40’ and above have twin wheels because of the wide aft sections and hard chines necessitating twin rudders. Tillers have their place but so do wheels.

DArcy · Feb 14, 2022

To be fair, Open 60s spend the vast majority of their time on autopilot. Maybe they just don't feel the need for the added weight and complexity of wheel steering.

Joe · Feb 14, 2022

Will Gilmore said:
I would expect the authors of those books to have done the research and to have an understanding of such things. I would assume they wrote those books out of a deep personal interest.

The books I refer to are in a genre often described as Historical Fiction, or more precisely, Historical Naval Fiction. They tend to concentrate in the late 18th early 19th century also thought of as the "Napoleonic Era". A time the great English Navy dominated and protected British interests worldwide. Many of the authors themselves were considered authorities, having had successful naval careers, but all were wonderful writers who did their research competently. To venture into this particular genre was to open yourself to the highest criticism from the legion of knowledgeable fans and other writers. It was literary suicide should you enter it unprepared.

Joe · Feb 14, 2022

Apex said:
@Joe it took me some time and re-reading to take on your view as a new perspective: turning the back of the boat. Interesting to learn, but in my mind feels too far disconnected, like it is 3 operations: 1) I want to go left, so 2) the stern needs to go right, therefore turn the rudder right ( 3) tiller right or wheel left) For me, when steering with a wheel, it was a switch to think about steering the boat in a direction (left/right) instead. With sailing a tiller it feels more about wind angle come (up/down).

Think of the boat as rotating around its keel, or center point. That's how a boat turns. It pivots. That's also how you balance your sail rig. Everything works together... or against each other. You can actually steer the boat without using the rudder; by changing by pressure on headsail and mainsail, by shifting weight (ballast) forward and aft, or side to side, heeling the boat brings the hull shape into the steering dynamic also. If you think of the complete package, how things are related, then you'll never consider any activity as disconnected. The moment that happens you become one with the boat and one with nature.

This, in a nutshell, is sailing. Using all the tools the boat provides to find balance with what nature gives you, so you can move efficiently across the water!

capta · Feb 18, 2022

I think it is really about the boat and how it is to be used.