Tiller .vs. Wheel

May 25, 2012
4,338
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
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bacchant 64' tiller steering. it's about design and function

a sailboat steers with it's sails and trims with the helm

i don't think twice about either system. "steady at the helm" is just that. most people way oversteer. ............................ well, except for those IOR racers. the were spooky off the wind :cool:
 

DArcy

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Feb 11, 2017
1,767
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
I had a tiller on my C&C27 and loved it. Most of the C&C27s around here have been converted to wheel steering and I just never understood it. With a tiller extension I could sit anywhere in the cockpit, or easily steer with a foot on the tiller while trimming the main or a jib sheet. I have a wheel now and had no trouble switching over but I've sailed (and motored) so many boats over the years I just adapt to whatever is at hand. The PO of my boat put a fitting for a tiller extension at the bottom of the wheel, he was an old 505 sailor :).
 

DArcy

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Feb 11, 2017
1,767
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
I sail with a tiller and on the occasion when I helm on a wheel I sometimes catch myself turning the wheel opposite to the desired direction. It's muscle memory and when helming a sailboat is no big deal for me to overcome. I appreciate the simplicity of a tiller and its ability to transmit feedback more directly. On the otherhand, it takes up a lot of room in a smaller boat's cockpit. On reading this thread, I was reminded of a video (link below). There is more to this phenomenon that one might assume at first glance. This video link has really nothing to do with sailing, but the concept is related to this thread.
Cheers.

That's a good example of how humans can adapt but how difficult it can be to change our ways of doing things. Here is another view on steering a bike. He explains how we inherently steer the bike under us without even thinking about it and subconsciously initiate the turn by steering the opposite direction. The part about balancing a broom handle is kind of how I explained jibing a symmetrical spinnaker, steer the boat under the sail while the pole is off for the jibe (just to keep it relevant to sailing :waycool:)
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,158
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
I am in the same camp as others here that exclaim "what's the big deal?" As will gilmore aptly noted, it's the direction of the rudder which, of course, points the direction the stern moves. As long as the driver understands that a boat steers from the rear then confusion is impossible. Therefore, when introducing a new sailor to helming, that's the point that should be emphasized.

As far as wheel steering on a sail boat, their only real purpose is to provide the additional power needed by the below deck rudder machinery... which, interestingly enough... is often a short tiller arm or quadrant variation. Back in the day, it was common to see very long tiller handles on small 60 to 80 foot schooners and the like.

Funny thing is, on those old wooden wheel equipped ships... frigates, 4th rate, 3rd, 2nd etc.. the pulley system was NOT reversed like it is on modern boats. Turning the wheel to the right pointed the rudder to the right, not the boat, just like a tiller arm does, meaning you turned the wheel in the opposite direction you wanted to go... think about it... back in those days you didn't tell your new driver to "steer it like you're driving a car":) there were no cars... there were no steering wheels for that matter....:yikes:. At the helm, there were always at least 2 quartermaster's mates at the big wheel, four on the big ships, standing on both sides... but commands were given relative to the rudder direction... It would have been confusing to relate the commands to the wheel instead of the helm/rudder.

Finally, I think there are some sailors that think that, in some misguided way, having a steering wheel instead of a tiller somehow makes the boat look higher quality.:banghead:Dude........ nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, a 25 foot boat with a dinky wheel (because the cockpit is too small) looks unbelievably pretentious.... okay...I'll say it... bring on your flames... it looks stupid, ridiculous, absurd!!!!:clap: You just don't need a wheel on a boat under 30ft...... It's (forgive me) Power boat-ish.... but that's just my opinion. (Geez, this response somehow turned into a rant. Forgive me, please........... I'm old)
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Funny thing is, on those old wooden wheel equipped ships... frigates, 4th rate, 3rd, 2nd etc.. the pulley system was NOT reversed like it is on modern boats. Turning the wheel to the right pointed the rudder to the right, not the boat, just like a tiller arm does, meaning you turned the wheel in the opposite direction you wanted to go...
Is that so? I never thought of that. So I can understand, if we imagine a skeg-hung rudder, what does "right rudder" mean? I think it would mean that the rudder is deflected to the right, the tiller, then, to the left, and the boat turns to the right. Right? I would also think that the wheel turning towards the right, i.e., clockwise as viewed from aft, always did this. Not true?
 

DArcy

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Feb 11, 2017
1,767
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
Funny thing is, on those old wooden wheel equipped ships... frigates, 4th rate, 3rd, 2nd etc.. the pulley system was NOT reversed like it is on modern boats. Turning the wheel to the right pointed the rudder to the right, not the boat, just like a tiller arm does, meaning you turned the wheel in the opposite direction you wanted to go
I wonder when this custom changed. The square rigged boats I sailed turned in the direction of the top of the wheel. Of course this was in the last century, long since cars were around. It would be easy enough to swap the direction, just rig the rope to the top of the wheel rather than the bottom.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I wonder when this custom changed. The square rigged boats I sailed turned in the direction of the top of the wheel. Of course this was in the last century, long since cars were around. It would be easy enough to swap the direction, just rig the rope to the top of the wheel rather than the bottom.
I don't think it ever changed, I want to see a historical reference for what Joe asserts. I think he's mistaken.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,158
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Is that so? I never thought of that. So I can understand, if we imagine a skeg-hung rudder, what does "right rudder" mean? I think it would mean that the rudder is deflected to the right, the tiller, then, to the left, and the boat turns to the right. Right? I would also think that the wheel turning towards the right, i.e., clockwise as viewed from aft, always did this. Not true?
Actually, that term "right rudder" was not commonly used during the age of sail. It sounds like aeronautical or wheel controlled power boat vernacular. But I could be mistaken. I just know what I read. aka. patrick obrian, dewey lamdin, etc. Everything was related to wind direction and rudder position...and compass heading, of course.

The direction the tiller is pointing is always the same as the rudder.... skeg, blade, transom hung...no difference. Thus, the command to tack the boat, "helm's alee", tells the driver to point the tiller/rudder downwind, sending the stern to leeward and bow into the wind. As ships got larger, technology allowed the wheel, connected to a tiller below deck, to provide greater mechanical advantage to control the rudder. But.... the ship's rudder still had a tiller and steering commands were always related to it. The big wheel, therefore, was there to support the rudder, not replace it. During Naval battles the wheel was sometimes disabled by opposing cannon fire. The crew would have tackle rigged below hooked up to the tiller so the boat could be steered by command from topside.

Making the wheel behave like a vehicle, turn right the vehicle goes right, was not considered, because everything was always related to tiller/rudder direction.
 
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Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,158
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
I don't think it ever changed, I want to see a historical reference for what Joe asserts. I think he's mistaken.
It's entirely possible that I may have confused things....I just remember reading one of my many naval fiction novels about certain vessels being set up this way and certainly it was not the entire case. Rather than thumb through those novels looking for the piece, and after quickly scanning articles on some rather famous sailing battleships of the day (i.e HMs Victory) that contradict my understanding, I'll let it go. However, if, in the future you disagree with me, please have the common courtesy to address me directly, rather than tell me I'm wrong in the third person. Like I'm not in the room. That's just uncool. Okay... love all of y'all.
 
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jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
However, if, in the future you disagree with me, please have the common courtesy to address me directly, rather than tell me I'm wrong in the third person. Like I'm not in the room.
I think you're too sensitive, but I'm sorry if I offended you. I addressed you directly in #26, in #28 I used your name to remove ambiguity. That's all.
 
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jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
The direction the tiller is pointing is always the same as the rudder.... skeg, blade, transom hung...no difference. Thus, the command to tack the boat, "helm's alee", tells the driver to point the tiller/rudder downwind, sending the stern to leeward and bow into the wind.
This is incorrect, and in fact, is internally contradictory. The tiller moves opposite of the rudder. Here's a reference:

From Harland's Seamanship In The Age Of Sail:
"Orders to the helmsman were traditionally given in terms of ‘helm’. That is to say, the position of the tiller rather than the rudder. ‘Hard a-starboard!’ meant ‘put the tiller (helm) to starboard, so that the ship may go to port!’ It will be realised that not only the bow turned to port, but also the rudder, [and] the top of the wheel..."


Helm commands are the opposite of rudder commands for the same action.

All in good fun. I enjoy these kind of discussions, especially when I experience some kind of cognitive dissonance that makes me research something. (I'm usually wrong 1/2 the time.)

The Misunderstood Mariner: Helm Commands
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
I just know what I read. aka. patrick obrian, dewey lamdin, etc. Everything was related to wind direction and rudder position...and compass heading, of course.
I loved those books. I read all of the Patrick O'Brian Jack Aubrey books - 21 of them, as I recall. I still think the first and tenth were the best. I was blown away when I started at the realism of the Naval battle scenes. It turns out O'Brian gleaned these accounts from the ships' log books in the Royal archive. Incredible!
 
Apr 8, 2010
2,086
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Finally, I think there are some sailors that think that, in some misguided way, having a steering wheel instead of a tiller somehow makes the boat look higher quality.:banghead:Dude........ nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, a 25 foot boat with a dinky wheel (because the cockpit is too small) looks unbelievably pretentious.... okay...I'll say it... bring on your flames... it looks stupid, ridiculous, absurd!!!!:clap: You just don't need a wheel on a boat under 30ft...... It's (forgive me) Power boat-ish.... but that's just my opinion. (Geez, this response somehow turned into a rant. Forgive me, please........... I'm old)
'Bout Time someone laid out the plain truth.... !

Thanks!!
:)
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
...it's the direction of the rudder which, of course, points the direction the stern moves.
That is backwards. It's the direction of the tiller that points to the direction the stern moves. The stern moves opposite of the direction the rudder points.

Maybe there's confusion about what "points" means. If you are referring to the direction pointed to by the rudder's leading edge, then yes, you would be right. But that's not the traditional definition of rudder directions. Merriam Webster has"

"Definition of right rudder
: a position of a ship's rudder that will turn the ship to the right —often used as a command."
 

jviss

.
Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Funny thing is, on those old wooden wheel equipped ships... frigates, 4th rate, 3rd, 2nd etc.. the pulley system was NOT reversed like it is on modern boats. Turning the wheel to the right pointed the rudder to the right, not the boat, just like a tiller arm does, meaning you turned the wheel in the opposite direction you wanted to go... think about it... back in those days you didn't tell your new driver to "steer it like you're driving a car":) there were no cars... there were no steering wheels for that matter....:yikes:.
Circling back on this - you can tell I'm like a dog who's got hold of a bone - I have to disagree. How far back do you want to go? An example of a Georgian ship of the line that still exists is HMS Victory. On Victory, turning the wheel to starboard, i.e., clockwise when facing forward, moves the tiller to port and the ship turns to starboard. Victory was launched in 1765, I think, and of course, designed years before. And, I can't imagine they were breaking any new ground regarding steering on such ships.

And I can detect now that when you say "pointing the rudder to the right" you mean, for a skeg mounted rudder, moving the trailing edge to the left, which is no common terminology I've encountered.

See this nice youtube video:
How do you Steer a Ship of the Line?
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,239
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
I grew up with sailboats and small boats with outboards so tiller steering is always natural to me. That said, when we had ski boat, i never had any difficulty with that either, so sailing with a wheel never had to be an adjustment.

One thing that did mess me up though. @Ward H has this tiller stick that he can fasten to his wheel so you can steer from the stern rail seat. That takes some getting used to ... when it is mounted to the top of the wheel in center position, push & pull the stick like a tiller and the reaction is the opposite of what you expect. It works best if you mount it to the bottom of the wheel.
 
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