Thinking too much about keel forces

Jan 27, 2008
3,086
ODay 35 Beaufort, NC
If the keel is drastically slowing the boat it is likely the result of drag at the aft end of the keel where mixing of the flow streams occurs. Airplanes use tiplets to reduce the vortices created by this mixing. You'd probably need a water tunnel to figure out how to improve it.
 
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Feb 20, 2011
8,059
Island Packet 35 Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
Besides being much slower and denser, how different is hydrodynamics from aerodynamics?
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Besides being much slower and denser, how different is hydrodynamics from aerodynamics?
They are exactly the same. Both are sub-disciplines of Fluid Dynamics. Even in air, you have different flow speeds and medium densities that have to be accounted for. You only have to look at the wide range of airplane wings to see that in action.
 
Jun 26, 2013
6
Hunter/Luhrs 60' Custom Galveston Bay
I am not so sure about any forward force from the keel... seems like drag mostly to me. But the sails do not push, except when the wind is off the stern! The Sails PULL... just like the wing on an airplane, lifts the aircraft and pulls it up and forward, powered by the engines. The Sail is an airfoil, just like the wing of the airplane, when the wind blows over the sail, a vacuum is created along the leading edge of the sail... the Luff. The sail Pulls the boat. Hope this helps.
 

weinie

.
Sep 6, 2010
1,297
Jeanneau 349 port washington, ny
I am not so sure about any forward force from the keel... seems like drag mostly to me. But the sails do not push, except when the wind is off the stern! The Sails PULL... just like the wing on an airplane, lifts the aircraft and pulls it up and forward, powered by the engines. The Sail is an airfoil, just like the wing of the airplane, when the wind blows over the sail, a vacuum is created along the leading edge of the sail... the Luff. The sail Pulls the boat. Hope this helps.
This.

I wonder if anyone has ever quantified the amount of lift or forward force the keel provides, lateral resistance not withstanding.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I am not so sure about any forward force from the keel... seems like drag mostly to me. But the sails do not push, except when the wind is off the stern! The Sails PULL... just like the wing on an airplane, lifts the aircraft and pulls it up and forward, powered by the engines. The Sail is an airfoil, just like the wing of the airplane, when the wind blows over the sail, a vacuum is created along the leading edge of the sail... the Luff. The sail Pulls the boat. Hope this helps.
Guys. Look again at my diagram. I'm not making this stuff up! ;^)

Sails do not PULL the boat forward, no more than an airplane wing pulls a plane forward. They both generate LIFT almost 90 degrees to the chord. On its own, the sail happily blows the boat downwind.
The keel does the same, but its lift is to WINDWARD and tilted more into the breeze. The vector addition between the two is the force that moves the boat forward.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
This.

I wonder if anyone has ever quantified the amount of lift or forward force the keel provides, lateral resistance not withstanding.
Of course, this happens all the time on modern yacht design. This is done to balance the rig to the keel/righting moment. Using modeling programs called VPPs (Velocity Prediction Program), designers can model all the physical attributes of a yachts, and then calculate expected sailing performance (polar charts) to a VERY high degree of accuracy.

Like this popular one:

http://www.wumtia.soton.ac.uk/software

Once the yacht is modeled, performance can be calculated before a single boat is built.

 
Mar 10, 2015
62
Catalina 30 Moss Landing, CA
The physics of sailing have always been interesting to me. One point is that the sails operate under the principles of aerodynamics, while the keel follows hydrodynamics.
Similar principles, but water is far more dense than air. So the balance that Jackdaw talks about is achieved with a keel surface area much smaller than the sail surface area.
In theory, it's possible to adjust the swing keel according to the amount of sail you're flying. But I don't know if that's practical, or safe.

A rounded leading edge of the keel is important to the hydrodynamic lift, so I think that altering the front edge of the keel is a mistake. There's a reason that it wasn't designed with a sharp leading edge.
Any higher performance keel you are likely to see in a boatyard has a rounded leading edge tapering to a trailing edge of maybe 1/8" - same with rudders. A foil with a sharp leading edge will stall out very easily with small changes in angle of attack through the water by suddenly losing the laminar flow around the windward side, which produces the keel's lift. Do this in an aircraft at low altitude and you suddenly drop out of control, crash and burn!

Lifting your keel partially in light air sailing upwind will be of no benefit, as leeway - the great killer of windward VMG (velocity made good to windward) - will increase to more than offset any gain in boat speed.

Pete
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Any higher performance keel you are likely to see in a boatyard has a rounded leading edge tapering to a trailing edge of maybe 1/8" - same with rudders. A foil with a sharp leading edge will stall out very easily with small changes in angle of attack through the water by suddenly losing the laminar flow around the windward side, which produces the keel's lift.

Pete
Indeed, ALL performance keels will have a NACA foil shape, designed to maximize lift and laminar flow for an intended speed. Other design considerations can factor, like how wide the AOA can very before stalling etc, but they will have this form. Key to the creation of laminar flow is the rounded bulb nose. If you do not have this your keel will suck.

The point tip trailing edge is ideal but for keels but VERY hard to manufacture. That is why it is usually squared off.

 

JTulls

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Dec 6, 2014
89
International 14 and J-Boat J80 San Diego
Guys. Look again at my diagram. I'm not making this stuff up! ;^)

Sails to not PULL the boat forward, no more than an airplane wing pulls a plane forward. They both generate LIFT almost 90 degrees to the chord. On its own, the sail happily blows the boat downwind.
The keel does the same, but its lift is to WINDWARD and tilted more into the breeze. The vector addition between the two is the force that moves the boat forward.
I agree that Jackdaw is not making this stuff up! Lift is generated perpendicular to the flow over it and in the direction of the low pressure side. With the sail acting like an air foil, lift is generated to leeward, and when sailing upwind, should have a slight forward component. Due to the inherent side slip of a sailboat, the flow over the keel is asymmetric and therefore generates lift to windward. That is the basically the lateral resistance force to try to keep the boat from side slipping (note that this is not the same as drag -- the drag force is parallel to the flow). When you arrange the force vectors correctly, as Jackdaw has done in an earlier post, you'll see that the net force is forward.

Aerodynamics and hydrodynamics are the same in terms of theory since both air and water are fluids -- the differences really only come when you're dealing with coefficients, but that's only important when doing actual calculations.
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,249
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Interesting graph ...

Indeed, ALL performance keels will have a NACA foil shape, designed to maximize lift and laminar flow for an intended speed. Other design considerations can factor, like how wide the AOA can very before stalling etc, but they will have this form. Key to the creation of laminar flow is the rounded bulb nose. If you do not have this your keel will suck.

The point tip trailing edge is ideal but for keels but VERY hard to manufacture. That is why it is usually squared off.

If I do the math correctly for a chord length of 4' (48"), it would seem that the paint thickness applied to the keel could make a difference between a keel for normal use and a high performance keel ... wow! :)
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
If I do the math correctly for a chord length of 4' (48"), it would seem that the paint thickness applied to the keel could make a difference between a keel for normal use and a high performance keel ... wow! :)
Scotty,

Figures YOU would look at that that closely! ;^)

Remember that because these are both type 10 NACA foils, they BOTH will have a max thickness of 10% (5%+5%). But the location of that spot changes, as does the shape of the foil both in from and in back of that point. But in the 35-40% range, that HAVE to be close by definition.

If a designer was looking for a so-called lower-performance foil, it's more likely they would switch to another series.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,328
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
In its most simplistic form, I think I like the visualization of pinching a watermelon seed and watching it fly out from your fingers. Realizing that the boat is pinched between the wind and the water and squeezed forward. One sort of knows this, but haven't really thought through the physics of it.
In the consideration of a foil making that pinch more efficient, that seems to be why a boat with a pinched stern will be faster until other limitations take over. (such as resistance to healing)
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
In its most simplistic form, I think I like the visualization of pinching a watermelon seed and watching it fly out from your fingers. Realizing that the boat is pinched between the wind and the water and squeezed forward. One sort of knows this, but haven't really thought through the physics of it.
In the consideration of a foil making that pinch more efficient, that seems to be why a boat with a pinched stern will be faster until other limitations take over. (such as resistance to healing)
Except, of course, that the seed analogy is completely wrong. Nothing is being squeezed. The exact opposite is happening, two forces that are almost in opposite directions work together by the slight positive sum of their vectors.

I'm all for analogies, as long as they mirror the truth.
 

Kermit

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Jul 31, 2010
5,669
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
But jack the vector through the center of effort on the sail will not be perpendicular to the hull fore/aft centerline. This vector can be resolved into component vectors, one perpendicular to the hull and one in the forward direction. One of the components creates a heeling moment and the other a forward thrust. This is a little over simplified as the primary vector is really a 3D direction and it is a dynamics problem with constantly changing variable values. Thoughts?
Simplified?
 

Tim M

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Oct 19, 2014
25
Hunter 37C Blaine,Wa.
Theory is an interesting way to talk about reality. In theory I know and understand that the vacuum in front of my mainsail sucks the sail, the rig, the boat forward on a run. In reality I know that the air that I can feel is what fills my sail and pushes the sail, the rig, the boat forward on a run. Is theory truth, or is reality truth? Think about it some more.
Cheers,
Tim
 
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Apr 17, 2014
16
laguna yacht 24 windrose Toledo
Thanks 77Ventola, i'll be checking out yahoo for that .
Kingjim91, I've been told about the round leading edge / wing ,and it makes sense BUT.
I have to do something ! Right or wrong , I've seen sailboats with a sharp edge on the front & back . Now mine is sharp in the front & its tapered almost sharp in the back . I just can no longer go from 6 knots to 2 knots because i put the keel down more than 2ft . I had to try something no matter what . I sure can't make it any slower with the keel down .
Thanks again everybody .
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,328
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
Except, of course, that the seed analogy is completely wrong. Nothing is being squeezed. The exact opposite is happening, two forces that are almost in opposite directions work together by the slight positive sum of their vectors.

I'm all for analogies, as long as they mirror the truth.
OK, I'm missing something here. If two forces are acting in almost opposite directions, would there not be a pinching affect? I realize the forces are in two different planes, but the nature of the affect would still be the same. What am I picturing that is not accurate?
 
May 17, 2004
5,598
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
I just can no longer go from 6 knots to 2 knots because i put the keel down more than 2ft . I had to try something no matter what . I sure can't make it any slower with the keel down . Thanks again everybody .
I'm surprised that the drag would be that dramatic. Are you using speed through the water or over ground? I'm guessing that if you're using SOG a large part of your 6kts with the keel up is leeway, and by lowering the keel you reduce the leeway, lowering your SOG, but helping your VMG.
 
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Mar 5, 2012
152
Hunter 37-cutter Saint Augustine
wow so many replys so many thoughts, how bout, the wind blows and we sail. adventure before us. did these guys think about this when men started sailing??? lets leave this thought to those guys in americas cup, 40 knots. stop thinking go sailing