Well........ we'll see what happens when you actually need assistance... will your pride and principles be your demise, or will you revel in the discovery that man's greatest calling is to help his fellow man.
They think it's funny, but it's not.
- Thread starter Jackdaw
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Well if you are nearer than the horizon I might ask but - probably not if I can at all avoid it. I'm pretty damn resourceful.
Too many people beg or demand the assistance of others before even trying to self solve.
My preparations always center on self reliance - not imposing my silliness onto others. In life I am deeply owed by others - but I owe next to no one. I prefer it that way.
- Dec 30, 2009
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If you want to point fingers at people in our sport, the coast guard spends a lot more time and resources, rescuing the pro sailors, they are stripping their boats to the bare minimum, built lighter and lighter ,so they are faster, and a lot of people are dying in these regattas, then they are heros, so whos the villan here, we are human and constantly push the envelope..so these guys are trying to relize a dream on a low budget. I wish I had been able to do it when I was 25...Red
I think the difference falls between people who know what they are doing, always striving to learn more, and are pushing the envelope of endurance and technology, and fools who know nothing. People who choose in fact, to know as little as possible, and think its their God given right to be at the service of the rescuers when things go wrong. In the first case, the man is a sailor. In the second, its just another careless fool.
Basic physics?
They see the forestay is broken, TAKE DOWN the jib that's helping to hold the mast up and then head INTO the wind? We are probably lucky these guys are out sailing in Florida and not driving (even with licenses!) out on the road where they could get at us. The other good thing is that knowing they're in Florida, and unlikely to get very far, people in other states are safe from them for the time being. Unfortunately for them, the ocean will probably catch up to them at some point beyond the Coast Guard's or SeaTow's reach, and they won't think it's so funny. It's nice to have a dream, but sometimes reality has nothing to do with a TV show.
Robert,Wait, you mean you can get yourself banned? Why have I never been threatened with this? I need to up my game.
Seriously, I hope these two guys figure it out and make it work. I just hope they can quit putting others at risk in the process.
You really do need to up your game if you want the "banned" badge. Start out by turning every post you make that is not in the "bilge" about politics, guns, religeon, sex, drugs and rock & roll. That will get you noticed.
I can imagine one of them posting something here to get themselves banned. Too bad that post is probably already deleted.
Back on topic.
We all had to start learning somewhere. Perhaps a 30+ Hunter sailboat was not the best choice for starting the learning process but that was their choice.
I know that all of you have made at least one bad choice at one point in your lives. I know I have. Those of us who have owned boats for years have learned (usually the hard way) that constant vigilance of all our systems and self reliance is the goal. It has taken me 10 years of owning a keel boat to learn what I think is a lot, but I usually find that there is always more to learn. That keeps life interesting.
There are plenty of pitfalls of owning and sailing a boat. I'd have to say that this pair of Brians is learning a lot quickly, the hard way. Perhaps they should have taken a Basic Keelboat 101 course but I'll bet my bottom dollar that not everyone here has. The 101 course would not necessarily have helped them with all of their challenges though.
I am for education and learning (whether classes or hands-on) but I am not for gov't licensing for pleasure craft.
I have not read their blow by blow blog, but before judging their judgment I would want to step back a few yards to the purchase of this boat because it seems like that's where there troubles began. Given the serious nature of what has failed on this boat, their cozy relationship with Boat Tow is understandable. The issue when you are dismasted is not pride or self-sufficiency, it's getting what's left of the boat to shore where you have a chanced to cut your losses.
I would want to know whether they knew they were buying a project for which they were ill-prepared, or whether they got taken by an unscrupulous seller who concealed its many faults. If you don't know what to look for, boats can be deceptive. I would venture that a surprising percentage of buyers don't know about surveys, and many that do feel, perhaps incorrectly, that spending money on the boat is preferable to giving it to a surveyor who will then tell you what's wrong after you've given him the the money you'd have used to correct it.
Sometimes you look at a used car or boat, and it's love at first sight, good judgment be damned. Hey, I've got an Allante in my driveway and a Hunter in the Marina.
I would want to know whether they knew they were buying a project for which they were ill-prepared, or whether they got taken by an unscrupulous seller who concealed its many faults. If you don't know what to look for, boats can be deceptive. I would venture that a surprising percentage of buyers don't know about surveys, and many that do feel, perhaps incorrectly, that spending money on the boat is preferable to giving it to a surveyor who will then tell you what's wrong after you've given him the the money you'd have used to correct it.
Sometimes you look at a used car or boat, and it's love at first sight, good judgment be damned. Hey, I've got an Allante in my driveway and a Hunter in the Marina.
That's a noble position to take......... and just how does one determine the validity of another's distress?
Here's a scenario.... your daughter is crewing on your yacht, has a life threatening injury that needs a doctor. You know that a coast guard helicopter could save her life..... Do you radio for help?
If you made the call would you think it appropriate for the operator to ask for your medical insurance and credit informnatin as a condition of sending help.
The custom of the sea is for any vessel to render assistance to another if possible..... taxpayer supported or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue
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There are people who succeed at everything they try, there are those who fail at everything... it's down to a combination of luck, resourcefulness and confidence, and of course preparation. Most good sailors work on the preparedness part so they don't have to rely as much on luck.
When I read about those guys and think about it a bit, I come up with:
- for every person who takes a leap of faith, and succeeds -and writes about it -, I wonder how many have crashed and burned - and just kept quiet about it, or didn't make the news. I guess USCG stats could shed some light on that.
- fortune favours the bold, and all that. Also, the guys seem to have courage and resourcefulness, which keeps them at it, and increases the likelihood that they will come out on top... and have some great stories even if they don't.
Do I resent that they are endangering themselves and possibly others?... sure. In the meantime, most of the population are eating/drinking/smoking themselves into an old age of ill health, quite likely at public expense. And how many idiots speed and bumper-tail? Drink and drive? Most of us are gaming the system in some fashion.
All told, I'd rather have the US and Canadian coast-guard systems we currently have, and feel the odd twinge of resentment/jealousy when the occasional fools seem to abuse it, than the libertarian/plutocratic ideal of pay-as-you-go, how much will you pay me to rescue you mindset.
You never need help til you need it, don't you? Like most, I take some pride in developing the skills and being prepared, but I hope this pride never gets in the way of making the Mayday or Pan-Pan call when someone's safety is on the line. Didn't some racer die recently because they declined offers of a tow?
When I read about those guys and think about it a bit, I come up with:
- for every person who takes a leap of faith, and succeeds -and writes about it -, I wonder how many have crashed and burned - and just kept quiet about it, or didn't make the news. I guess USCG stats could shed some light on that.
- fortune favours the bold, and all that. Also, the guys seem to have courage and resourcefulness, which keeps them at it, and increases the likelihood that they will come out on top... and have some great stories even if they don't.
Do I resent that they are endangering themselves and possibly others?... sure. In the meantime, most of the population are eating/drinking/smoking themselves into an old age of ill health, quite likely at public expense. And how many idiots speed and bumper-tail? Drink and drive? Most of us are gaming the system in some fashion.
All told, I'd rather have the US and Canadian coast-guard systems we currently have, and feel the odd twinge of resentment/jealousy when the occasional fools seem to abuse it, than the libertarian/plutocratic ideal of pay-as-you-go, how much will you pay me to rescue you mindset.
You never need help til you need it, don't you? Like most, I take some pride in developing the skills and being prepared, but I hope this pride never gets in the way of making the Mayday or Pan-Pan call when someone's safety is on the line. Didn't some racer die recently because they declined offers of a tow?
I read through their blog a few weeks back, I recall they were using the Spin halyard for the Jib since the Jib halyard had somehow came loose or failed, and was stuck up at the top of the mast.
I wouldn't call them stupid or inept, but I would call them ignorant. They just simply don't understand the magnitude of the number of things they just don't know about sailing or being on the water.
EDIT:
Just went back through their recent blog posts, seems they fixed the jib halyard, but came across this one that talks about problems with the Spin halyard wrapping when they furl the Jib. I think you nailed the problem...
http://www.navigatethesea.com/3-14-2013-sails/
I think basic education leading to a license is fine and reasonable; much like the requirements for driving on public roads. Lets at least expect boaters to have basic knowledge of boats and the rules of the water before they go out their and endanger themselves or others. Safer boating means a lot to all of us... Safer seas and in theory lower insurance.
With the above in place, a well funded coast guard, paid for by everyone's taxes, needs to be in place to rescue people that get in over their heads do to whatever circumstance... Weather, accident, lack of ability, hitting a submerged log, etc. The CG should be there and funded for all it's responsibilities -- rescues, homeland security, maritime traffic, maintaining depth charts and navigation aids. It's not just pleasure boaters that get into trouble; tour boats, work boats, cruise ships and others all rely on them.
And no, pleasure craft boaters should not be billed for rescues, especially if they've met licensing requirements as mentioned above. Think of it this way -- tons of my tax dollars go to things I'll never directly use, like food stamps, public housing, welfare, a bridge to nowhere in Alaska, and so on. For 20-some years I've been paying ridiculously high taxes in part so that my neighbors kids can get a great education, despite the fact that wife and I don't have children. So, if my number comes up someday and I need the government to come give me a hand on the water, I'll consider us even.
With the above in place, a well funded coast guard, paid for by everyone's taxes, needs to be in place to rescue people that get in over their heads do to whatever circumstance... Weather, accident, lack of ability, hitting a submerged log, etc. The CG should be there and funded for all it's responsibilities -- rescues, homeland security, maritime traffic, maintaining depth charts and navigation aids. It's not just pleasure boaters that get into trouble; tour boats, work boats, cruise ships and others all rely on them.
And no, pleasure craft boaters should not be billed for rescues, especially if they've met licensing requirements as mentioned above. Think of it this way -- tons of my tax dollars go to things I'll never directly use, like food stamps, public housing, welfare, a bridge to nowhere in Alaska, and so on. For 20-some years I've been paying ridiculously high taxes in part so that my neighbors kids can get a great education, despite the fact that wife and I don't have children. So, if my number comes up someday and I need the government to come give me a hand on the water, I'll consider us even.
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There is a fine line between competence and ignorance. I have been interested in aviation since I was a kid, and even without holding a license, and with very few hours under my belt, I have been able to impress others with mountains of experience and training with my own knowledge and abilities. I was even able to get a job working on them (under supervision) without an A&P license, by proving my knowledge and ability to the gray hairs. Its like I tell our daughter about trying to learn a new language. They gave you the book, and more are available in libraries, no one said you couldnt read ahead and learn it by yourself at a faster pace, and to a higher ability.
Far too many people these days want to skim over everything and jump in over their heads. They want to climb Everest on oxygen above 15,000 feet because they arent mountain climbers, and have the dead bodies littering its peak to prove it. They want to fly airplanes by learning as little as possible, and scowl at those with more experience who warn them, and the NTSB files are full of accident reports to prove they weren't pilots.
Why would buying a boat and going to sea be any different? Learn as little as possible, dont listen to anyone with greater knowledge, and go out and prove to the world that you arent a sailor.
How about instead, reading all you can, studying all you can, and learning in steps before going out to kill yourself?
This thread reminds me of the guys who climb Everest. Men like Sir Edmund Hillary condemn those who attempt it without being true climbers, while other praise the dead as heroes for having tried. I guess I am more on the Hillary side of the debate. There is nothing heroic about being dead, and certainly nothing heroic about being a fool.
Far too many people these days want to skim over everything and jump in over their heads. They want to climb Everest on oxygen above 15,000 feet because they arent mountain climbers, and have the dead bodies littering its peak to prove it. They want to fly airplanes by learning as little as possible, and scowl at those with more experience who warn them, and the NTSB files are full of accident reports to prove they weren't pilots.
Why would buying a boat and going to sea be any different? Learn as little as possible, dont listen to anyone with greater knowledge, and go out and prove to the world that you arent a sailor.
How about instead, reading all you can, studying all you can, and learning in steps before going out to kill yourself?
This thread reminds me of the guys who climb Everest. Men like Sir Edmund Hillary condemn those who attempt it without being true climbers, while other praise the dead as heroes for having tried. I guess I am more on the Hillary side of the debate. There is nothing heroic about being dead, and certainly nothing heroic about being a fool.
Agreed....
There is a moment when we must take that great leap. When knowledge, understanding, practice, and mentorship take you to the jump door of the aircraft, the wheel of the car, the yoke of a plane, or the tiller of a boat.
That is not the first step anyone should take. It is the step you take after the hard steps are already taken...and mastered.
You want to prepare for your best chance of success...not doom yourself to failure.
There is a moment when we must take that great leap. When knowledge, understanding, practice, and mentorship take you to the jump door of the aircraft, the wheel of the car, the yoke of a plane, or the tiller of a boat.
That is not the first step anyone should take. It is the step you take after the hard steps are already taken...and mastered.
You want to prepare for your best chance of success...not doom yourself to failure.
Why? Why do we need government intrusion? We have no need for a license as, long ago, you did not need one, because, we didn't. But now, everyone seems to think (well, many people but surely not independent sailing type dudes and dudets) that the government needs to rescue us for every thing we can imagine.
I do not need the USCG to pull my boat off the bar. Thanks, but I got it here on my own, I can wait for high tide and I will be gone, on my own as well.
Oh, we can't do that because somehow you are declaring my boat a buren to others navigating, HERE?
Or justifying your budget?
Just a RANT!
I do not need the USCG to pull my boat off the bar. Thanks, but I got it here on my own, I can wait for high tide and I will be gone, on my own as well.
Oh, we can't do that because somehow you are declaring my boat a buren to others navigating, HERE?
Or justifying your budget?
Just a RANT!
You could say that none of us NEEDS to be out on the water at all. Any time a recreational sailor goes out, potentially he or she puts rescue people at risk. The Coast Guard are public servants that we pay for with our taxes; same as the police and other government employees. As citizens, we have a right to expect help when the need comes. Even if it's due to our own ignorance or stupidity.
Ignorant sailors need our help and education instead of our scorn.
Ignorant sailors need our help and education instead of our scorn.
Its not a question whether we want government intrusion, we already have it, and its not going away. If we dont want to be licensed, then we need to make sure as many fools as we come across dont screw up our freedoms for the rest of us. Learning all we can learn should be encouraged, not diminished.
The more fools go to sea and need rescue, the more the eye of big brother will look down on all of us, and eventually do something about it. Idiots shooting up schools and drunk drivers are prime examples of a few idiots screwing everything up for the rest of us. Ignorant idiots needing the Coast Guard to bail them out every 5 minutes because they aren't sailors will bring about similar change.
The more fools go to sea and need rescue, the more the eye of big brother will look down on all of us, and eventually do something about it. Idiots shooting up schools and drunk drivers are prime examples of a few idiots screwing everything up for the rest of us. Ignorant idiots needing the Coast Guard to bail them out every 5 minutes because they aren't sailors will bring about similar change.
The Coast Guard doesnt have a problem rescuing competent people who got in over their head. The problem is the ones who should clearly know better, but do it anyway.
We seem to have a whole generation of people who think they can do anything because they saw someone do it on TV. They refuse to read, refuse to learn, wont listen to experts, and are increasingly ending up killed or putting others at risk. Its like Jackass the movie, in real life. They are the ones who are going to screw it up for the rest of us.
We seem to have a whole generation of people who think they can do anything because they saw someone do it on TV. They refuse to read, refuse to learn, wont listen to experts, and are increasingly ending up killed or putting others at risk. Its like Jackass the movie, in real life. They are the ones who are going to screw it up for the rest of us.
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