Greeting to all,I want to thank all of you for your information and even those who criticized me severly,The boat was a 20ft Oday Mariner, the swing keel is a stainless steel iron that has a small winch and is raised by pulling the line,and is free fall with no locks,it is 20yrs old or more,we did not report it as one feels the protectice instinct not to turn himself in for a possible repromand,i did not reef as we had a slight steady breeze and had been sailing back and forth parallel to land,the swim was about four hours but we are not sure on the time of the capsize,it seemed like the swim lasted all day,i got a rescue boat from our neighbor who told me later that day that i was very panic and i had run down the road a mile to get to our home so the time is not perfect,and running down blacktop barefoot is no picknik,i have learned alot of lessons, first is PFD"s,I have sailed this bay many times and always released the mainsheet or turned more into the wind and even sailed in strong wind but never saw anything like this,the boat is still afloat but i lost the rudder/tiller and all sails as they were ripped away when the boat was rolled back over,Iam not sure it has any bearing on this but we were at unusual high tide..again i welcome all responces and thanks everyone.Jerome
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steven f.
nuff said
You really took a beating on your last post. Neptune was in a good mood on that day, be glad, learn from it and sail on. Good luck.
You really took a beating on your last post. Neptune was in a good mood on that day, be glad, learn from it and sail on. Good luck.
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Dave
Never Enough
No one is abusing the writer, we all are pleased he survived with his crew to write the story. Here's a few comments to expand the thoughts presented so far. If the boat was out of sight of land would the swim have taken place? Of course not, the boaters would stay with the boat and eventually they would be discovered missing and a search would take place to find them. In Harm's Way (the book)describes the sinking of the Indianapolis where about 900 men went into the water and weren't noticed missing for about 5 days. Those that survived stayed together, used whatever flotation they could find and assorted survival techniques. Many had hypothermia even though they were in tropical waters. Many drank sea water and died from it. Yes in this case they would likely be in the water longer but would certainly be found in a short time by professional searchers in helicopters. I strongly recommend In Harm's Way to this forum, it is a riveting account of the disaster and an in depth discussion of survival. Oh yeah, were there any sharks in the area? Another reason to stay with the boat. dave
No one is abusing the writer, we all are pleased he survived with his crew to write the story. Here's a few comments to expand the thoughts presented so far. If the boat was out of sight of land would the swim have taken place? Of course not, the boaters would stay with the boat and eventually they would be discovered missing and a search would take place to find them. In Harm's Way (the book)describes the sinking of the Indianapolis where about 900 men went into the water and weren't noticed missing for about 5 days. Those that survived stayed together, used whatever flotation they could find and assorted survival techniques. Many had hypothermia even though they were in tropical waters. Many drank sea water and died from it. Yes in this case they would likely be in the water longer but would certainly be found in a short time by professional searchers in helicopters. I strongly recommend In Harm's Way to this forum, it is a riveting account of the disaster and an in depth discussion of survival. Oh yeah, were there any sharks in the area? Another reason to stay with the boat. dave
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Jack Rhines
Boat sunk Info,Glad all made it
Any Mr. Legal man like to respond to this story, Here are the facts so far! Day sailor type skipper takes three friends sailing, fails to reef in ruff and windy weather, mind you seas so ruff it swamps boat! Leaves all three with no life jackets and no hope unless he makes it to shore! Takes Four hr. to swim to shore! In addition, what does he do instead of calling for help to at least give his poor passengers a chance to live! Fails to call any one but runs down a road for a mile to get some one to loan him a boat so he can make the rescue himself, in all these high sea’s? How long did this take? Maybe two more Hours! Wow! Those passengers must have been in great shape when you got back to them! Was It twilight by then! Where they easy to find bobbing around out there? What if you could not or did not find them. Explain away three deaths because you failed to call for help when you reached shore! I believe at this point a little reprimand should have been a cheap price to pay for three lives. I wonder if the passengers had to help tow the boat in after Six hours in water! Just my take on Story and what the outcome could have been! Belive this when you take passengers out on a boat any boat, there lives are your resposibilty kill your self thats ok kill some other poor soul that trusted you would be a hard thing to live with! Jack Sailing san Diego Catalina 22
Any Mr. Legal man like to respond to this story, Here are the facts so far! Day sailor type skipper takes three friends sailing, fails to reef in ruff and windy weather, mind you seas so ruff it swamps boat! Leaves all three with no life jackets and no hope unless he makes it to shore! Takes Four hr. to swim to shore! In addition, what does he do instead of calling for help to at least give his poor passengers a chance to live! Fails to call any one but runs down a road for a mile to get some one to loan him a boat so he can make the rescue himself, in all these high sea’s? How long did this take? Maybe two more Hours! Wow! Those passengers must have been in great shape when you got back to them! Was It twilight by then! Where they easy to find bobbing around out there? What if you could not or did not find them. Explain away three deaths because you failed to call for help when you reached shore! I believe at this point a little reprimand should have been a cheap price to pay for three lives. I wonder if the passengers had to help tow the boat in after Six hours in water! Just my take on Story and what the outcome could have been! Belive this when you take passengers out on a boat any boat, there lives are your resposibilty kill your self thats ok kill some other poor soul that trusted you would be a hard thing to live with! Jack Sailing san Diego Catalina 22
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tom
big juevos....
last thing i'd do is tell anyone i abandon ship while others are out there without any PFD's wondering if any help will arrive...gee, can i go with you next time...
last thing i'd do is tell anyone i abandon ship while others are out there without any PFD's wondering if any help will arrive...gee, can i go with you next time...
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R.W.Landau
Thanks Jerome
Thank you for your honest account of the story. I hope this will help others, that read this account, avoid catastrophic situations. I think now that you now know a skippers accountability in this situation and that you were fortunate that the outcome was OK. r.w.landau
Thank you for your honest account of the story. I hope this will help others, that read this account, avoid catastrophic situations. I think now that you now know a skippers accountability in this situation and that you were fortunate that the outcome was OK. r.w.landau
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Jerome
are you a lawyer jack?
Jack you must be a Lawyer because only lawyers and the press try to take somthing that was not the case and create a scene that did not happen..you also dont read well,remember jack FACTS!
Jack you must be a Lawyer because only lawyers and the press try to take somthing that was not the case and create a scene that did not happen..you also dont read well,remember jack FACTS!
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Mike Turner
Skipper's Responsibility?
Jerome - I have read responses to both your posts in interest and am somewhat disappointed with the messages being posted. I think it's presumptuous to lecture on the "skipper's responsibility" as applies to your case. I think we'd all agree that the skipper's responsilibity lies with protecting his/her crew, passengers and vessel. Beyond that, I think only you can say if, in your judgement, the actions you took at the time reflected your assessment of meeting that responsibility. If you felt that leaving your crew/passengers/ vessel and risking your life in an attempt to get help, then mounting a "rescue mission," was the best way of saving your friends, I'm not sure any of us who weren't there should stand in judgement of that. For those who disagree I suggest you take a look at Ernest Shackleton's actions in leaving his starving crew on a deserted island to obtain help. It's easy to say "stay with the boat" when you weren't the one in the water. Jerome, I suspect you've drawn your own conclusions and learned your own lessons from this experience (as did I from my own) and that's the best result. For those who want to trash this guy, let's see what you do when you go in the water. Mike Turner
Jerome - I have read responses to both your posts in interest and am somewhat disappointed with the messages being posted. I think it's presumptuous to lecture on the "skipper's responsibility" as applies to your case. I think we'd all agree that the skipper's responsilibity lies with protecting his/her crew, passengers and vessel. Beyond that, I think only you can say if, in your judgement, the actions you took at the time reflected your assessment of meeting that responsibility. If you felt that leaving your crew/passengers/ vessel and risking your life in an attempt to get help, then mounting a "rescue mission," was the best way of saving your friends, I'm not sure any of us who weren't there should stand in judgement of that. For those who disagree I suggest you take a look at Ernest Shackleton's actions in leaving his starving crew on a deserted island to obtain help. It's easy to say "stay with the boat" when you weren't the one in the water. Jerome, I suspect you've drawn your own conclusions and learned your own lessons from this experience (as did I from my own) and that's the best result. For those who want to trash this guy, let's see what you do when you go in the water. Mike Turner
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Rick Webb
Don't Think Jack knows Jack About the Texas Coast
Apart from a couple of places along the entire Texas coast Jerome was lucky (those three words keep coming up) he only had to go a mile after he got to shore to get to help.
Apart from a couple of places along the entire Texas coast Jerome was lucky (those three words keep coming up) he only had to go a mile after he got to shore to get to help.
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Skip
Jack is right
To fail to notify the coast guard upon reaching shore in a misguided attempt to avoid "possible repromand" is ridiculous. As captain, their lives where in your hands. You'd already made a number of misjudgements that landed you and them in the water; to compound it by charging out like Rambo as a one man rescue attempt was insane. You made one decision that was right that day, which bucked conventional wisdom. The fact that you got lucky w/ all the other bad decisions does not make you a hero, regardless of how others view your "heroic" swim. Instead of recognizing the foolishness of that lack of a phone call, you try to attack Jack? Give me a break. In reviewing the events of that day, and what you could have done better, I think that very high on the list you should have notified the authorities before you headed out again for the rescue.
To fail to notify the coast guard upon reaching shore in a misguided attempt to avoid "possible repromand" is ridiculous. As captain, their lives where in your hands. You'd already made a number of misjudgements that landed you and them in the water; to compound it by charging out like Rambo as a one man rescue attempt was insane. You made one decision that was right that day, which bucked conventional wisdom. The fact that you got lucky w/ all the other bad decisions does not make you a hero, regardless of how others view your "heroic" swim. Instead of recognizing the foolishness of that lack of a phone call, you try to attack Jack? Give me a break. In reviewing the events of that day, and what you could have done better, I think that very high on the list you should have notified the authorities before you headed out again for the rescue.
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Jerome
I am glad i didnt wait,
I am glad i didnt wait for the coast guard and there were no houses and phones until i arrived and the neibors house and i knew were they were, and there once on land i could see them i was standing 20 feet above water level, the skiff was in front of me....well i was out of there like a rocket..if like other emergency calls it might be 30 min to an hour until anyone was on scene..i SHOULD have had PFD's out of the hold, i should have a radio,but i am glad i wasnt with jack and waiting for jacks help.and by the way there were no waves slaping over the decks when we went out.itit was a slight steady breeze and in an instant she was knocked over and blowing like a squall, there was no bay adviseries, I have sail in strong winds many times and know to reef!!my original question was why it happened so fast why why the boat sank,Jerome
I am glad i didnt wait for the coast guard and there were no houses and phones until i arrived and the neibors house and i knew were they were, and there once on land i could see them i was standing 20 feet above water level, the skiff was in front of me....well i was out of there like a rocket..if like other emergency calls it might be 30 min to an hour until anyone was on scene..i SHOULD have had PFD's out of the hold, i should have a radio,but i am glad i wasnt with jack and waiting for jacks help.and by the way there were no waves slaping over the decks when we went out.itit was a slight steady breeze and in an instant she was knocked over and blowing like a squall, there was no bay adviseries, I have sail in strong winds many times and know to reef!!my original question was why it happened so fast why why the boat sank,Jerome
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Clyde
It might have been a microburst?
If there were clouds overhead near your sailboat, it could have been a microburst. Rising warm air causes water vapor to rise until it cools to form clouds. As clouds drifts over water, the lost of rising warm air causes the weight of the water vapor to drop, causing a down draft. If there were no "Cat’s Paw" signature on the water indicating an oncoming wind gust or the wind direction changed dramatically then, it could have been a downdraft from a cloud near your sailboat. Fair Winds. Clyde
If there were clouds overhead near your sailboat, it could have been a microburst. Rising warm air causes water vapor to rise until it cools to form clouds. As clouds drifts over water, the lost of rising warm air causes the weight of the water vapor to drop, causing a down draft. If there were no "Cat’s Paw" signature on the water indicating an oncoming wind gust or the wind direction changed dramatically then, it could have been a downdraft from a cloud near your sailboat. Fair Winds. Clyde
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Skip
don't wait, but at least call for help
I'm not saying you should have waited for them to arrive, but you ABSOLUTELY should have called them (radio or phone, or even just tell that neighbor to do it) before you headed out again. You never know what might have happened before you got out there, or what might have been necessary. If others had tried to swim off, or they had hypothermia, or the skiff run out of gas, or any number of "what-ifs", the CG is equiped to deal with it. One tired guy in a skiff isn't. I'm not trying to bash on you; I'm trying to give "food for thought" so that next time you or anyone else is in similar conditions, a call for help is put out as soon as it's possible to do so, without worrying about covering the accident up from the authorities. As to why it sank ... almost all boats will sink if they go over with the hatches open. There's no built in floatation, and there is a heavy keel. Dunno about it happening fast, but there's plenty of freakish weather conditions that do just that.
I'm not saying you should have waited for them to arrive, but you ABSOLUTELY should have called them (radio or phone, or even just tell that neighbor to do it) before you headed out again. You never know what might have happened before you got out there, or what might have been necessary. If others had tried to swim off, or they had hypothermia, or the skiff run out of gas, or any number of "what-ifs", the CG is equiped to deal with it. One tired guy in a skiff isn't. I'm not trying to bash on you; I'm trying to give "food for thought" so that next time you or anyone else is in similar conditions, a call for help is put out as soon as it's possible to do so, without worrying about covering the accident up from the authorities. As to why it sank ... almost all boats will sink if they go over with the hatches open. There's no built in floatation, and there is a heavy keel. Dunno about it happening fast, but there's plenty of freakish weather conditions that do just that.
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Jerome
I concede to you Skip
to be honest i am not sure i thought of anything but getting back out there..the boat has all it legal doc,and all safety equip, although not on deck,all i thought was to get back out there, one was my wife and i was scared and now as i listen to you...well you are very right.i should of had them call as i was headed out..believe it or not i have made three rescues my self in the last two years as i live right on the water..and i called before i left on one and the others were very close to shore, in my situation i really should have had that call made skip..jerome
to be honest i am not sure i thought of anything but getting back out there..the boat has all it legal doc,and all safety equip, although not on deck,all i thought was to get back out there, one was my wife and i was scared and now as i listen to you...well you are very right.i should of had them call as i was headed out..believe it or not i have made three rescues my self in the last two years as i live right on the water..and i called before i left on one and the others were very close to shore, in my situation i really should have had that call made skip..jerome
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R.W.Landau
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Clyde
Accident Reporting
I don't know how much damage you had, but if the damage to your sailboat was over $500, then you have to report it to the Texas Parks & Wildlife department. You have 30 days from the time of the accident to report it. If anyone was hurt or injured which required medical treatment beyond first aid, then the dollar amount of damage doesn't matter, you have to report the accident. Texas Parks & Wildlife link. www.tpwd.state.tx.us/boat/accident.htm Fair Winds. Clyde
I don't know how much damage you had, but if the damage to your sailboat was over $500, then you have to report it to the Texas Parks & Wildlife department. You have 30 days from the time of the accident to report it. If anyone was hurt or injured which required medical treatment beyond first aid, then the dollar amount of damage doesn't matter, you have to report the accident. Texas Parks & Wildlife link. www.tpwd.state.tx.us/boat/accident.htm Fair Winds. Clyde
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Bob
Sudden wind
25 years ago my brother-in-law and I experienced a storm on the Chesapeake Bay near Tangier Island that came up super-fast. We had a little warning from the ominous clouds forming in the northeast, but it went from dead calm to big gusts in just a few minutes. I later read an account by a guy who was working on his boat, moored and under bare poles, that same day. He said it looked like a waterfall coming toward him, and when it hit, his boat took a complete knockdown, mast in the water, then bounced back up. Sounded like a white squall to me. Perhaps you had a similar situation without the rain - what were the clouds like that day?
25 years ago my brother-in-law and I experienced a storm on the Chesapeake Bay near Tangier Island that came up super-fast. We had a little warning from the ominous clouds forming in the northeast, but it went from dead calm to big gusts in just a few minutes. I later read an account by a guy who was working on his boat, moored and under bare poles, that same day. He said it looked like a waterfall coming toward him, and when it hit, his boat took a complete knockdown, mast in the water, then bounced back up. Sounded like a white squall to me. Perhaps you had a similar situation without the rain - what were the clouds like that day?
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Peter J. Brennan
Who know..
how anyone not trained in the specific situation will behave when the unexpected or inconceivable occurs? The legalistic among you who were not there can all go take a long hike off a short pier, and that includes the Texas guy who's talking about reporting damage in excess of $500. Jeez! Jerome did what seemed the appropriate thing to do at the time. Of course he can be faulted, mostly for not having PFDs available. (Hmmm. Mine are below under a settee.) But you cannot put yourself in his state of mind at the time, which seems to have been a combination of both panic and purpose. Panic precludes rational thought; purpose can make one blind to alternatives. Just happy it worked out and the very last man to judge. We had some buildings fall down here in New York something over a year ago. I could see them four miles away from my window. I am still wondering at my actions that day.
how anyone not trained in the specific situation will behave when the unexpected or inconceivable occurs? The legalistic among you who were not there can all go take a long hike off a short pier, and that includes the Texas guy who's talking about reporting damage in excess of $500. Jeez! Jerome did what seemed the appropriate thing to do at the time. Of course he can be faulted, mostly for not having PFDs available. (Hmmm. Mine are below under a settee.) But you cannot put yourself in his state of mind at the time, which seems to have been a combination of both panic and purpose. Panic precludes rational thought; purpose can make one blind to alternatives. Just happy it worked out and the very last man to judge. We had some buildings fall down here in New York something over a year ago. I could see them four miles away from my window. I am still wondering at my actions that day.
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R.W.Landau
Education
We have talked about boater education on this site many times. For those who think this was a trivial ordeal... My guess is that you have not had boater education. Jerome, I have made some comments and tried not to finger point and with your response I think you know what should have been done. For those who still think this was a clear cut heroic act, It was not. This post and responses are a good arguement for requiring safe boating classes. Boating is supposed to be fun and safe. It is also serious business and demands accountability. I would ask a lawyer to chime in here, but I don't think that will happen. They may have to defend someone who has had a lesser outcome of events. For you Lawyers, I know you are chomping at the bit to input..... Jerome, Like I said before, thanks for your honest account of this situation. This is how some people learn. Boating courses can input some of this stuff with out the experience. Safe sailing....... r.w.landau
We have talked about boater education on this site many times. For those who think this was a trivial ordeal... My guess is that you have not had boater education. Jerome, I have made some comments and tried not to finger point and with your response I think you know what should have been done. For those who still think this was a clear cut heroic act, It was not. This post and responses are a good arguement for requiring safe boating classes. Boating is supposed to be fun and safe. It is also serious business and demands accountability. I would ask a lawyer to chime in here, but I don't think that will happen. They may have to defend someone who has had a lesser outcome of events. For you Lawyers, I know you are chomping at the bit to input..... Jerome, Like I said before, thanks for your honest account of this situation. This is how some people learn. Boating courses can input some of this stuff with out the experience. Safe sailing....... r.w.landau
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Clyde
Peter J. Brennan
When you file a boating accident report in Texas, the information you provide can't be used against you in a court of law and is confidential. The boating accident information you provide to the Texas Parks & Wildlife Division could be used to help other people avoid a similar boating accident in Texas. I was taught to do the right thing even if it was hard to do. I believe in God, Country, and the laws of the United States. I don't know what kind of boating laws you have in New York where you can pick and chose which laws you will follow and which laws you will disregard. Fair Winds. Clyde
When you file a boating accident report in Texas, the information you provide can't be used against you in a court of law and is confidential. The boating accident information you provide to the Texas Parks & Wildlife Division could be used to help other people avoid a similar boating accident in Texas. I was taught to do the right thing even if it was hard to do. I believe in God, Country, and the laws of the United States. I don't know what kind of boating laws you have in New York where you can pick and chose which laws you will follow and which laws you will disregard. Fair Winds. Clyde
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