Who knows what anyone not
You just the best argument possible in favor of mandatory boating safety eduction.
You just the best argument possible in favor of mandatory boating safety eduction.
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Don Bodemann
Really want more laws??
Oh yes, mandatory boaters safety courses followed by boater licensing?? Kind of like drivers ed. safety courses and drivers licenses?? Be careful what you wish for ... PS: Don’t you people have spell checks?
Oh yes, mandatory boaters safety courses followed by boater licensing?? Kind of like drivers ed. safety courses and drivers licenses?? Be careful what you wish for ... PS: Don’t you people have spell checks?
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Jerome
Bob, i was partly cloudy
It was a partly cloudy day,light breeze,i agree with skip on the PFD's, but i am convinced the rest of my actions would not change if it were the VERY same, Clyde,as far as reporting, god, and country and a firm hand of the law.i find these kind of iron handed people are the ones first to screem for mercy and tollerance when they become in a situation,and of course they dont make any mistakes, i believe in god and country,and Freedom,I see these iron handed people around me all the time..thank god and country they dont have ALL the power!.....YET!.Jerome
It was a partly cloudy day,light breeze,i agree with skip on the PFD's, but i am convinced the rest of my actions would not change if it were the VERY same, Clyde,as far as reporting, god, and country and a firm hand of the law.i find these kind of iron handed people are the ones first to screem for mercy and tollerance when they become in a situation,and of course they dont make any mistakes, i believe in god and country,and Freedom,I see these iron handed people around me all the time..thank god and country they dont have ALL the power!.....YET!.Jerome
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R.W.Landau
Manditory, no problem
Unfortunately many people buy boats a take off. They never look back to see the destruction they have caused with their wake nor do they look forward to see that they may be putting a life in danger. Ps. I can not spell. I do not want a drunk driver on the roads that my kids drive on. I don't want ignorant boaters on the water I occupy. I don't want my kids to be able to get on a boat that the owner may harm them. This county was based on morality. This morality said that you cared about others as much as yourself. When people don't care about others, laws must be made to enforce morality. I would not have wanted to be one of Jerome's friends that trusted his knowlege and ability because he told me he could sail. Did he have the knowledge that a basic boating course would have given him about a rescue? Jerome you made a mistake. Would you have made so many mistakes that day had you been educated with a simple boaters safety course? If you don't know, take a course. Unfortunately when people can buy boats that can hurt others and they don't care if they do, it is time for required safe boating courses. I did not say manditory licensing. I think that if someone takes a safe boating course they will learn that there is accountability involved with owning a boat. If a safe boating course would have protected the four (4) others in Jerome's boat or even made their rescue safer, I am willing to spend 10 to 20 hours of class room time in a winter to obtain a safe boaters certificate with a non Govermental agency so that I know that the other people sailing next to me will not put me and my crew in danger. So that my guests can trust that I have basic knowledge of how to avoid bad situations and KNOW WHAT TO DO if a bad situation should occur. I want to have fun and enjoy freedom of sailing without worrying that the guy in the other boat has no idea that there are nav rules and laws that he is accountable for. r.w.landau
Unfortunately many people buy boats a take off. They never look back to see the destruction they have caused with their wake nor do they look forward to see that they may be putting a life in danger. Ps. I can not spell. I do not want a drunk driver on the roads that my kids drive on. I don't want ignorant boaters on the water I occupy. I don't want my kids to be able to get on a boat that the owner may harm them. This county was based on morality. This morality said that you cared about others as much as yourself. When people don't care about others, laws must be made to enforce morality. I would not have wanted to be one of Jerome's friends that trusted his knowlege and ability because he told me he could sail. Did he have the knowledge that a basic boating course would have given him about a rescue? Jerome you made a mistake. Would you have made so many mistakes that day had you been educated with a simple boaters safety course? If you don't know, take a course. Unfortunately when people can buy boats that can hurt others and they don't care if they do, it is time for required safe boating courses. I did not say manditory licensing. I think that if someone takes a safe boating course they will learn that there is accountability involved with owning a boat. If a safe boating course would have protected the four (4) others in Jerome's boat or even made their rescue safer, I am willing to spend 10 to 20 hours of class room time in a winter to obtain a safe boaters certificate with a non Govermental agency so that I know that the other people sailing next to me will not put me and my crew in danger. So that my guests can trust that I have basic knowledge of how to avoid bad situations and KNOW WHAT TO DO if a bad situation should occur. I want to have fun and enjoy freedom of sailing without worrying that the guy in the other boat has no idea that there are nav rules and laws that he is accountable for. r.w.landau
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Jerome
RW that sounds very reasonable
I think you may be right,I agree on that point, but also see others points..I think most sailors here are very inteligent and seem to be great people but i do fall in with those who believe the pendelum always swings to exstremes,..i dont have spel checker.
I think you may be right,I agree on that point, but also see others points..I think most sailors here are very inteligent and seem to be great people but i do fall in with those who believe the pendelum always swings to exstremes,..i dont have spel checker.
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Echo Gulf
Wow!
Gerome, I've spent 35 years working with military aviation, mostly in the field of test and evalution of new systems, weapons, and a/c crash investigations. One of the first things I learned is that even the most experienced and highly trained professional can make errors in judgement during critical situations. Unfortunately this is human nature, the only thing we can do in a case like this is to learn from our mistakes and to help prevent others from making similar errors. Reading your post and the replys has prompted me (and I'm sure a large number of other readers as well) to review my onboard safety procedures and equipment, and I thank you for that. Just think, the intestinal fortitude you displayed in relating your experience on a public forum may have the back-lash of preventing someone else's less than correct response in a similar situation. As for this talk of manditory training and licensing etc. Here in this country we have people attempting to push similar requirements. I feel very strongly that this is the wrong approach! I can't comment on your laws but here in Canada, in my opinion, we have enough laws to protect the good boaters. The money that would be used to administer to mandatory training and licensing should be used to provide additional law enforcement to remove the yahoo boaters from our waters. sv SeaRaven
Gerome, I've spent 35 years working with military aviation, mostly in the field of test and evalution of new systems, weapons, and a/c crash investigations. One of the first things I learned is that even the most experienced and highly trained professional can make errors in judgement during critical situations. Unfortunately this is human nature, the only thing we can do in a case like this is to learn from our mistakes and to help prevent others from making similar errors. Reading your post and the replys has prompted me (and I'm sure a large number of other readers as well) to review my onboard safety procedures and equipment, and I thank you for that. Just think, the intestinal fortitude you displayed in relating your experience on a public forum may have the back-lash of preventing someone else's less than correct response in a similar situation. As for this talk of manditory training and licensing etc. Here in this country we have people attempting to push similar requirements. I feel very strongly that this is the wrong approach! I can't comment on your laws but here in Canada, in my opinion, we have enough laws to protect the good boaters. The money that would be used to administer to mandatory training and licensing should be used to provide additional law enforcement to remove the yahoo boaters from our waters. sv SeaRaven
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Tom
R.W. sorry to disagree with all your talks of
mandatory education. But here in CT it is mandatory and you STILL see idiotic things on the water. (Just like you see idiotic things on the road). MANDATING education won't be the panacea everyone thinks it is. Yes it will not hurt and I encourage everyone to take it ! BUT just as Echo said in his post before "most experienced and highly trained professional can make errors in judgement during critical situations." And you know what, I am not convinced Jerome did anything wrong AFTER he found his boat swamped out there (obviously he could have been better prepared before). I don't call what he did heroic, I call it doing what HAD to be done considering how ill prepared he was. (just waiting, with no hope of being seen, but in site of land in not always the best thing to do.....they might be there for days!?....he never mentioned having flares or VHF....yes that IS a mistake ). And Clyde I think that is naive to think that those documents that he filled out can't be used against him in anyway....maybe not in a criminal court, but possibly in civil court. I just can't beleive that, if you could post the URL of the texas statute that proclaims that any information CANNOT be used against me, in anyway I'd love to see it. It sounds good, but almost ANYTHING can be used against you.
mandatory education. But here in CT it is mandatory and you STILL see idiotic things on the water. (Just like you see idiotic things on the road). MANDATING education won't be the panacea everyone thinks it is. Yes it will not hurt and I encourage everyone to take it ! BUT just as Echo said in his post before "most experienced and highly trained professional can make errors in judgement during critical situations." And you know what, I am not convinced Jerome did anything wrong AFTER he found his boat swamped out there (obviously he could have been better prepared before). I don't call what he did heroic, I call it doing what HAD to be done considering how ill prepared he was. (just waiting, with no hope of being seen, but in site of land in not always the best thing to do.....they might be there for days!?....he never mentioned having flares or VHF....yes that IS a mistake ). And Clyde I think that is naive to think that those documents that he filled out can't be used against him in anyway....maybe not in a criminal court, but possibly in civil court. I just can't beleive that, if you could post the URL of the texas statute that proclaims that any information CANNOT be used against me, in anyway I'd love to see it. It sounds good, but almost ANYTHING can be used against you.
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Don Bodemann
Legislate morality!?
Legislate morality!? Wake up R.W. You can’t legislate morality. You can’t legislate courtesy, and you can’t legislate common sense. In my humble opinion, the sailing community in general, is a group of people that compared with the rest of society (and power boaters) is usually courteous, cautious, knowledgeable, and have a reasonable sense of what is right and wrong. More laws? NO THANKS
Legislate morality!? Wake up R.W. You can’t legislate morality. You can’t legislate courtesy, and you can’t legislate common sense. In my humble opinion, the sailing community in general, is a group of people that compared with the rest of society (and power boaters) is usually courteous, cautious, knowledgeable, and have a reasonable sense of what is right and wrong. More laws? NO THANKS
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kevin
enough laws already !
Please no more laws. The sailing community is policing itself very well thank you. Licenses are only good for establishing registries and more government jobs thus costing us more.
Please no more laws. The sailing community is policing itself very well thank you. Licenses are only good for establishing registries and more government jobs thus costing us more.
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David
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Clyde
Tom I guess you haven’t been to Texas?
I had posted the URL site link in my earlier posting. As I said earlier, the documents cannot be used in any state court, criminal or civil in the state of Texas. I don’t know what the boating laws are in the East, but in Texas if you fail to file a boating accident report then it’s punishable as a Parks and Wildlife Class C misdemeanor. A misdemeanor isn’t like a slap on the hand and small fine, like it might be in the East; in Texas it means you might be spending some time in the county jail. In Texas they don’t take kindly to law breakers, I guess that’s why the Enron bankruptcy case is being held in New York instead of in Texas. Fair Winds. Clyde
I had posted the URL site link in my earlier posting. As I said earlier, the documents cannot be used in any state court, criminal or civil in the state of Texas. I don’t know what the boating laws are in the East, but in Texas if you fail to file a boating accident report then it’s punishable as a Parks and Wildlife Class C misdemeanor. A misdemeanor isn’t like a slap on the hand and small fine, like it might be in the East; in Texas it means you might be spending some time in the county jail. In Texas they don’t take kindly to law breakers, I guess that’s why the Enron bankruptcy case is being held in New York instead of in Texas. Fair Winds. Clyde
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hp
stuff happens get over it
Hi Jerome; It sounds like you and your friends were just having a good time near home. Then something unexpected happened. Stuff happens!!! You could have been better prepared and probably will be next time. I think that you might have been overloaded with five people in a 20' boat. But face it sailing is supposed to be fun!!!! If you have to go through too much stuff it's not fun. I guess we could have big brother watch everyhting that we do so that we never make mistakes. But I believe in freedom as much as possible. The good thing about sailing is that I read that it is the safest thing you can do!!! More people get killed walking!!!! Education is a great thing and I'm sure that if you continue sailing that you will take courses or educate yourself by reading. There are plenty of safety courses on-line. With people talking about spending time in jail you may sell the boat and run!!!! Tom
Hi Jerome; It sounds like you and your friends were just having a good time near home. Then something unexpected happened. Stuff happens!!! You could have been better prepared and probably will be next time. I think that you might have been overloaded with five people in a 20' boat. But face it sailing is supposed to be fun!!!! If you have to go through too much stuff it's not fun. I guess we could have big brother watch everyhting that we do so that we never make mistakes. But I believe in freedom as much as possible. The good thing about sailing is that I read that it is the safest thing you can do!!! More people get killed walking!!!! Education is a great thing and I'm sure that if you continue sailing that you will take courses or educate yourself by reading. There are plenty of safety courses on-line. With people talking about spending time in jail you may sell the boat and run!!!! Tom
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Peter J. Brennan
Clyde
I'm glad I don't live in Texas anymore if nitpicking legalistic morality has become the norm there. When I did live there forty years ago it was a pretty free wheeling place where your driver's license had no photo and every cash register at the grocery store had a supply of blank checks with which to pay your charges. I think it was called "Trust." Long drive, hot Sunday, Houston to Big Spring. Hotel. "What can I get you sir?" "Gin and tonic, I'm really hot, thirsty and tired." "Sorry sir, dry county. Blondes, brunettes or ice water." True story.
I'm glad I don't live in Texas anymore if nitpicking legalistic morality has become the norm there. When I did live there forty years ago it was a pretty free wheeling place where your driver's license had no photo and every cash register at the grocery store had a supply of blank checks with which to pay your charges. I think it was called "Trust." Long drive, hot Sunday, Houston to Big Spring. Hotel. "What can I get you sir?" "Gin and tonic, I'm really hot, thirsty and tired." "Sorry sir, dry county. Blondes, brunettes or ice water." True story.
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Tom Ehmke
Somewhere between the extremes
of additional marine legislation and total chaos on the water is where enforcing the laws already on the books stands (or floats) ;-) I think that this point has already been made, but what is needed is enforcement of current boating law. As I read the many posts on this topic, it occurred to me that I can count on one hand the times I've seen the local bureau of natural resources, coast guard, coast guard auxiliary, or any other water-born cop pro-actively enforcing the law on the water in the last five or six years. It's been said before, but all the regulation in the world won't make a difference if there is no enforcement of any of it. I'm not advocating Big Brother here; what we need is a recognizable presence on the water to cause the goofballs to think twice before violating the law. Think about what one state patrolman parked in the median of an interstate does to the flow of traffic and the nonsense that normally takes place. Imagine that presence located in a strategic position on the water, for example at the inlet of a channel, or patroling a no-wake zone. It would make life easier and (for me) reduce the frustration of being knocked about by people who are just plain inconsiderate of others. Perhaps if there was more of a presence out there at times, the ignorant boaters would at least try to find out what the rules of the road are (i.e., take a boating class) and follow them in busy traffic. I just don't see much sense in more legislation. To me it sounds like the gun control debate. Let's enforce the laws already on the books. Jerome, I know that this discussion is far from what you intended it to be, but it's the way some of the best threads go around here. Having lost my rudder while underway twice, I can tell you that the second time it happened, I was miles ahead in knowing what to do. I'm among those who salute you for telling your story and stimulating this discussion. My $.02 Tom Ehmke
of additional marine legislation and total chaos on the water is where enforcing the laws already on the books stands (or floats) ;-) I think that this point has already been made, but what is needed is enforcement of current boating law. As I read the many posts on this topic, it occurred to me that I can count on one hand the times I've seen the local bureau of natural resources, coast guard, coast guard auxiliary, or any other water-born cop pro-actively enforcing the law on the water in the last five or six years. It's been said before, but all the regulation in the world won't make a difference if there is no enforcement of any of it. I'm not advocating Big Brother here; what we need is a recognizable presence on the water to cause the goofballs to think twice before violating the law. Think about what one state patrolman parked in the median of an interstate does to the flow of traffic and the nonsense that normally takes place. Imagine that presence located in a strategic position on the water, for example at the inlet of a channel, or patroling a no-wake zone. It would make life easier and (for me) reduce the frustration of being knocked about by people who are just plain inconsiderate of others. Perhaps if there was more of a presence out there at times, the ignorant boaters would at least try to find out what the rules of the road are (i.e., take a boating class) and follow them in busy traffic. I just don't see much sense in more legislation. To me it sounds like the gun control debate. Let's enforce the laws already on the books. Jerome, I know that this discussion is far from what you intended it to be, but it's the way some of the best threads go around here. Having lost my rudder while underway twice, I can tell you that the second time it happened, I was miles ahead in knowing what to do. I'm among those who salute you for telling your story and stimulating this discussion. My $.02 Tom Ehmke
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LaDonna Bubak - CatalinaOwners.com
Jerome, you have balls
I apologize for my "French" but you do. You knew you'd get fiercely criticized but you related the facts without trying to make yourself look better. I do agree with others that you made some serious mistakes but hopefully those mistakes will help others NOT to make them, which seemed to be the intention of your posting. Good on you for taking the heat and responding positively to those criticisms. Good luck with cleaning up the boat! LaDonna
I apologize for my "French" but you do. You knew you'd get fiercely criticized but you related the facts without trying to make yourself look better. I do agree with others that you made some serious mistakes but hopefully those mistakes will help others NOT to make them, which seemed to be the intention of your posting. Good on you for taking the heat and responding positively to those criticisms. Good luck with cleaning up the boat! LaDonna
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Harry
Agree with LaDonna's French
Jerome; Thanks for your post. I've really enjoyed the dialouge you created. It took courage to "bear your soul" to all. As someone else pointed out, it's caused all of us to think about panic situations, on and off the water, we've been involved in, and how we react. I bet the PFD's are handy next time you go out. Mine will be. A safe boating course is a great idea. It showed me how much I had to learn.
Jerome; Thanks for your post. I've really enjoyed the dialouge you created. It took courage to "bear your soul" to all. As someone else pointed out, it's caused all of us to think about panic situations, on and off the water, we've been involved in, and how we react. I bet the PFD's are handy next time you go out. Mine will be. A safe boating course is a great idea. It showed me how much I had to learn.
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Tom
Clyde, Thanks for the info
I never said it was a bad thing to do, just that more and more forms and government is not always the solution...... Lets be real here. Jerome did NOT cause any problems or damage to anyone else but himself and his freinds on that boat. (If anyone should have a problem with what happened it would be the people on his boat). And in some (unorthodox) way I applaud him for being "Self Sufficient" and fixing the problem he caused by himself and to me thats what sailing is about. I feel less for those people that do stupid things and EXPECT someone (read-government) to get them out of it But that "knock" about back east or whatever was a bunch of crap......Don't even go there...Enron started there in the "heart of texas"....and I wish the economic implications would have stayed there in texas without affecting the whole country. And the reason the case is not being held in texas is because there has been enough "good ol' boys" taking care of each other down there and they wanted to ensure that it wasn't going to happen again.
I never said it was a bad thing to do, just that more and more forms and government is not always the solution...... Lets be real here. Jerome did NOT cause any problems or damage to anyone else but himself and his freinds on that boat. (If anyone should have a problem with what happened it would be the people on his boat). And in some (unorthodox) way I applaud him for being "Self Sufficient" and fixing the problem he caused by himself and to me thats what sailing is about. I feel less for those people that do stupid things and EXPECT someone (read-government) to get them out of it But that "knock" about back east or whatever was a bunch of crap......Don't even go there...Enron started there in the "heart of texas"....and I wish the economic implications would have stayed there in texas without affecting the whole country. And the reason the case is not being held in texas is because there has been enough "good ol' boys" taking care of each other down there and they wanted to ensure that it wasn't going to happen again.
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Sean Herron...
Yacht Design...An old profession...
Hello, I am not going to throw any self righteous stones here, as we have all done stupid things or assumed ourselves capable of some act before reading and regurgitating all the available coffee table, generally accepted and posted on so many signs in so many languages and enforced by so many bylaws, 'information for the public good'... Who is speaking here, and what was the question... Hindsight is for the lucky souls who are content to sit in a lounge chair and read about the exploits of both the informed and experienced and to also watch the dumbasses on TV who just built a motorcycle with wings... I think you survived all this mess just to re-affirm the 'enlightened' as to why they do all the silly little things that they do that prevent them from getting into the situations that you seem to, hehe... Glad you are alive, but you only get one more chance, then it's twice, then it's the third event horizon, and if it gets to that point, well, you are breathing my air... Grand run of posts huh... I drink like an Irish man who really hates the British, but gah, there is a line that I can control... My grandfather called it 'walking or crossing the stupid line', whatever the hell that meant, he was a drunk Irish Cop... Glad to see you walked it, and was given Grace... Burp... Cheers... SH.
Hello, I am not going to throw any self righteous stones here, as we have all done stupid things or assumed ourselves capable of some act before reading and regurgitating all the available coffee table, generally accepted and posted on so many signs in so many languages and enforced by so many bylaws, 'information for the public good'... Who is speaking here, and what was the question... Hindsight is for the lucky souls who are content to sit in a lounge chair and read about the exploits of both the informed and experienced and to also watch the dumbasses on TV who just built a motorcycle with wings... I think you survived all this mess just to re-affirm the 'enlightened' as to why they do all the silly little things that they do that prevent them from getting into the situations that you seem to, hehe... Glad you are alive, but you only get one more chance, then it's twice, then it's the third event horizon, and if it gets to that point, well, you are breathing my air... Grand run of posts huh... I drink like an Irish man who really hates the British, but gah, there is a line that I can control... My grandfather called it 'walking or crossing the stupid line', whatever the hell that meant, he was a drunk Irish Cop... Glad to see you walked it, and was given Grace... Burp... Cheers... SH.
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Jerome
I had a chilling thought
yes, It had flares and a complete safety pack, a bright orange pack with 3 flares ,pistol,3 hand held flares,mirror, orange flag,They were all in the hold with the life jackets and as far as a overloaded boat well i posted all four passengers were dumped, that includes me in the four,and the boat states that it sleeps four, well now i dont think i was overloaded!!now i know i am not the smartest sailor here, FAR from it,I have lived here for seven years just being this little quiet sailor,sailing every weekend that i can,and have looked at thousands of boats coming and going,and for the life of me cant count on my hands how many of them had there equipment out on deck,not very often would i even see them wearing PFD's,other than that i am not sure what i did wrong yet , maybe not calling the law,and as for texas,people are the same all over, texas is a very laid back state,but there are a few good ol boys on land with there ego's,if i were floating face down i am sure they would be yelling at me"hey boy you better report this or else".as far as all you sailor here critizing me well i think i may have some coming and value your knowledge and ask for it but the most understanding of you makes me believe that you are the most experienced sailors,you know "been there done that"and to be honest i fear the crazy hundred mile an hour high priced speed boats who's drivers are on ego trips and blasting by,they will kill more than some daysailor,I have watched my story get turned into somthing that did not happen...If this were a court and you all were the jurers...would you find me guilty of negligence, iam very courius,i believe it takes a magority to convict,Tell Me
yes, It had flares and a complete safety pack, a bright orange pack with 3 flares ,pistol,3 hand held flares,mirror, orange flag,They were all in the hold with the life jackets and as far as a overloaded boat well i posted all four passengers were dumped, that includes me in the four,and the boat states that it sleeps four, well now i dont think i was overloaded!!now i know i am not the smartest sailor here, FAR from it,I have lived here for seven years just being this little quiet sailor,sailing every weekend that i can,and have looked at thousands of boats coming and going,and for the life of me cant count on my hands how many of them had there equipment out on deck,not very often would i even see them wearing PFD's,other than that i am not sure what i did wrong yet , maybe not calling the law,and as for texas,people are the same all over, texas is a very laid back state,but there are a few good ol boys on land with there ego's,if i were floating face down i am sure they would be yelling at me"hey boy you better report this or else".as far as all you sailor here critizing me well i think i may have some coming and value your knowledge and ask for it but the most understanding of you makes me believe that you are the most experienced sailors,you know "been there done that"and to be honest i fear the crazy hundred mile an hour high priced speed boats who's drivers are on ego trips and blasting by,they will kill more than some daysailor,I have watched my story get turned into somthing that did not happen...If this were a court and you all were the jurers...would you find me guilty of negligence, iam very courius,i believe it takes a magority to convict,Tell Me
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Bob
Guilty or Innocent
Tough question, Jerome. I'd say whomever of us hasn't done anything stupid on the water can cast the first stone. I'd still like to know if that mainsheet was cleated down and unattended, but mostly I think many of us have been affected by your experience, and suspect that somewhere down the line more than one of us will take a precaution we wouldn't have otherwise taken, and thereby save our butt or someone elses. I think you did some things wrong, but once the chips were down, you came through, and next time out you'll have this experience to guide you. I'd like to hear from YOU what you learned from all this - what would you do differently, given the same sort of conditions. Because now YOU are the guy with the experience.
Tough question, Jerome. I'd say whomever of us hasn't done anything stupid on the water can cast the first stone. I'd still like to know if that mainsheet was cleated down and unattended, but mostly I think many of us have been affected by your experience, and suspect that somewhere down the line more than one of us will take a precaution we wouldn't have otherwise taken, and thereby save our butt or someone elses. I think you did some things wrong, but once the chips were down, you came through, and next time out you'll have this experience to guide you. I'd like to hear from YOU what you learned from all this - what would you do differently, given the same sort of conditions. Because now YOU are the guy with the experience.
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