The question of ages - what boat?

[vtsailguy]

Its the question that's been asked many times... what kind of boat is best for me?

OK, so, right now I am in the market for my very own boat (been borrowing a friend's 23' all summer) and I find myself asking the same question, trawling forums, books and reviews.

Context?
Got 3 young kids 3-7 years old, sail 100% on big lake (Champlain), occasionally have 1-3 guests on the boat (yes 8 is crowded on the deck of a 23'!).

Not super interested in going fast, but would like do do the odd 1-2 night trip with the whole family. I can't see us doing week long trips.

I don't think I'll be trailing the boat all over creation. Champlain has years of exploration in it, but I might bring the boat home over winter to work on it easier (we live an hour + away from the marina).

Budget is $6-9000 all in.

My conclusions so far are...

28' to 30' boats seem to be a jump in price. In my budget range that means older 70's boats.
24' seems a minimum size for young family of 5
24'-28' range seems to be 80's boats in my budget

and here is the big one....
Much of the boat price seems to be in after market equipment, and at the end of the day, much of this seems to be the same. The same electronics, motors etc etc.

So, do I go for an older boat with an older foundation (hull/rigging, etc etc) that is a little bigger, or something smaller and newer?

If I move a move, at most once a year, do I need the swing keel water ballasted trailer-R-Us boat?

Please advise!

 

[vtsailguy]

And one last question....

As a first starter boat... should I just be looking for the best deal I can rather than asking this question anyway?

Should I just keep an eye on sales in my state and snap up the best deal in my budget? Do I need to agonize over whether this boat or that has a 3' waterline length more than an other?

 

[Ross]

Sit down with wife and discuss what is important to her and what is important to you. With the kids being able to feed, clean and bed the kids will be most important. My son is on the NY side of the lake and he tells me that if the wind blows from the north or south it can get pretty lumpy. So you will want a boat that is not too light.

 

[Brian D]

Good point getting with the wife. Go to Yachtworld.com and start looking together. An older boat is not a bad choice. I have a Lancer 27 from 1985 and paid $8900 for it. You can go to my webpage and take a look. Good solid boat, high freeboard, sails well and is very comfortable. But there are other boats like that, one being a Catalina 27.

Again, go to Yachtworld.com and just start looking. Limit you choices and come on back. I am sure you will find a few people with the same model boat who can answer ore specific questions.

Happy hunting.

 

[Joe]

Your budget will limit you to an 70's era boat. In that price range, for one or two day trips on a large lake.. I look for a fixed keel pocket cruiser with good resale.. Catalina 27 comes to mind. Unless you are definitely planning on trailering the boat, get the fixed keel. Look for a late 70's vessel in good condition. On the Catalina 27 owner's site there's a list of known issues that have come up over the years. Look for a boat that has all the retrofits and upgrades recommended in this list. I recommend looking for an outboard model, since you're lake sailing.... the older models had inboard gas or diesel motors as an option, but they were difficult to access for maintenance so many of them were neglected over the years. An electric start, remote control outboard 10+ hp in good shape is a huge plus. Make sure the boat includes all ground tackle and safety equipment. Take inventory when you first inspect the boat, then double check it when you take possession. If the boat has a good dinghy, or a dodger, that's a huge bonus. Each of those items will cost well over a thousand dollars but are wonderful additions to a family cruiser. The C27 will easily accommodate a family or 2 adults and 3 children.
You'll find decent boats in the 5k - 7k range... but remember you'll need insurance and other stuff as you become more familiar with the boat... Don't fret.. you will find the money and be happy to spend it on a much more comfortable boat than what you're on now. The bonus is the C27 is a delight to sail.

 

[Steve L22188]

One sage piece of advice

Sometimes the best advice about buying a boat doesn't concern waterline length, keel type or freeboard numbers.

When I was looking for my first boat -- with a two grade school-aged girls and my wife as potential users -- I got some really good advice from my sister-in-law: Make sure you get a reasonable head.

She told me: "Your girls won't want to sail if they can't use a real bathroom."

She was right. We ended up with an O'Day 240 for our first boat and the girls were perfectly happy on that boat -- and the head on that boat (until they got into high school and there were too many distractions to go sailing with dad).

With you having more kids than I have, keep an eye on the head of the boats you look at. Especially if you have girls.

 

[vtsailguy]

Seems people are thinking an 80's 26-28' boat rather than a 70's 30' one...

Spot on about the head. On the boat we are borrowing I have a fold up potty , but then, my kids are all boys and bodily functions are something to show off , not sure the wife wants to do the same though!

 

[Rick I]

You can get a nice Grampian 28 for under 10K here in Toronto. A friend who recently got a Hunter 36 is selling their Gramp 28. Good size, lots of room.

 

[Winkfish]

All very good advice here. You almost need to please the family more than yourself with the choice. One thing, whenever possible, go with your family to look at the actual boats you're considering. Websites just don't cut it, and seeing in person the different features will solidify for everyone what they like and don't like.

 

[Clark]

Most of my experience has been in the Southeast and I don't think I've ever seen a 30' boat that didn't have an inboard and fixed keel. You'd also play heck trying to trailer one that size anywhere except as a relocation effort. And, IMHO the only 30'ers in your budget would be junk. I concur with the others re: a 27 from the early 80's as long as it is sound. Other models to consider are Hunter and Cal; especially the Cal 25 or 27. They are well appointed; 25 is very large inside for its length (gives up cockpit room though) and frequently is equipped with an outboard. Still, at 4500+ lb and 4' keels, I'd not consider it trailerable.
Best of Luck!

 

[vtsailguy]

Here are a couple of interesting ones, same price (ish) but big difference in age.

Ericson 27 and a Tanzer 27

 

[druid]

As an owner of a nearly 40-yr-old 28ft boat, you know where my allegiance lies! Further, "newer" boats under 30ft are almost all the "trailers-R-Us" variety. Have you made the decision not to trailer? I don't know about Champlain, but out here yearly moorage for a 28ft is in the $4K-$6K range, so that $8K budget gets chewed up pretty quickly.

My original thought was a Catalina 27, but I found they didn't stand the Test of Time very well. If you do decide on an older boat, a Grampian, Islander, CS, Mirage, or even a Cal is a good choice. You WILL need a boat that sails decently in light air for a lake, otherwise you'll be frustrated and motor a lot. So think fairly light, with fin keel, and a big headsail.

One thing about older boats: the brand-name is far less important than the way it was kept, so don't focus on mfr - you may find a Paceship that's just what you're looking for!

druid

 

[druid]

Here are a couple of interesting ones, same price (ish) but big difference in age.

Ericson 27 and a Tanzer 27

Just be aware that an Ericson 27 is a VERY slow full-keel boat (as opposed to most Ericsons that are quite fast). The Tanzer is a good choice though.

druid

 

[Ross]

Just be aware that an Ericson 27 is a VERY slow full-keel boat (as opposed to most Ericsons that are quite fast). The Tanzer is a good choice though.

druid

Does this mean that she is under canvased and stays on her feet? Sailing can be like a day in the park or it can be like a day in a storm and you get wet and have to work. With my family along I prefer a day in the park.

 

[vtsailguy]

Moorings are pretty cheap... but I have a handy 32' long garage to work on the boat over winter with . I might bring it down more for that than to save fees.

The lake can get gnarly, its not uncommon for 20+ knot winds...

 

[OldCat]

Trailering and Launching

If I move a move, at most once a year, do I need the swing keel water ballasted trailer-R-Us boat?Please advise!

It depends upon the launching methods available where you intend to sail.

A deep keel will be harder to trailer on the road, you will have height issues to worry about and a higher less stable load. Possibly more need for a dually to tow it. Probably you will need a boat yard with a travel lift or crane rated for the weight to launch it. The cost of that may be an issue for you.

A wing or similar keel is easier to deal with. Easier to tow, and while you still need to know your height it is less likely to be a problem. IF your launch ramps are steep and deep enough, if you have a tow vehicle that can handle the steeper ramp (4wd helps a lot, 4wd low more) and if you learn about the challenges and safe ways to do an extended tongue or strap launch - then you can - with a lot of work - ramp launch the boat. Again, your local boat ramps must be steep and deep enough for your draft. Of course, the wing or shoal keel can be launched by crane or travel lift if available.

Water ballast boats are the easiest to ramp launch and trailer, but generally they don't sail as well. Still, many people find them a good compromise. Swing keel boats are heavier, but still relatively easy to ramp launch.

Also, remember that tow vehicles are usually rated for maximum towing load with only the driver aboard. Extra people and stuff subtract from that rating (look up GCVR or GCVWR, gross combined vehicle weight rating).

OC
tich tor ang tesmur

 

[Rick D]

Actually, the Erickson 27 listed is a Bruce King design and fin keel. spade rudder. It's contemporary and not an earlier full keel model. Having said that, she rates 240 in So Cal PHRF compared to 204 for a Catalina 27 and the same for a Newport 27. An O'Day 28 is 198. So, she isn't as fast regardless of keel design. I suspect she's just a bit under canvassed. I know several people who raced them successfully, so the rating could be an advantage in that respect, but with a really good set of sails.

 

[vtsailguy]

Is there a website anywhere that lists all the PHRF ratings?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Here's the deal

1. Buy the biggest boat you can afford that is in good shape --- don't buy a project boat 'cuz you won't go sailing the first year or maybe more.

2. Carefully reconsider your idea of a trailer sailor, 'cuz you don't or may not need to have it in your backyard. We have colleagues with Catalina 34s that sail on that lake, and they don't bring 'em home with them!

3. Like the folks said, involve the family in the selection decision.

Simple, eh?

Enjoy.

 

[LuzSD]

so much great advise! We have a 27 Catalina, 1979 and shared it with family for 8 years, and it is a really sweet sailing boat with OK room, especially when it is not full of "stuff". Keep it simple, I agree with that. She is a really easy and fun boat to sail and has a nice head, electric in fact! That absolutely does make a difference. Also, when we purchased our current Cat.30 it was 70% smell and feel that sold us on her at first, so make sure your wife falls in love because that makes a difference.

As I read your post, I thought the idea of trailering sort of changed everything and as I read everyone's recommmendations I see they agree...... choose a boat that is big enough to enjoy with all 5 of you, then make the committment and enjoy making it yours and something you get excited about every time get on board........ in the water. Make it easy to use her as much as possible and it will be the beginning of years and years of enjoyment. I am excited for you!!