The question of ages - what boat?
- Thread starter vtsailguy
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ok, presuming you are talking to me! Every boat has it's own smell. Some are just from disgusting heads, others have mold,moisture, etc. but they all have a specific smell that seems to stay no matter what ......... different materials equal different smells and for us that was an issue. We checked out multiple boats and for those first few minutes it was clear if a boat would stay on the short list. Maybe others don't care as much about this, I certainly do.
Be aware of compromises ...
Especially in a boat under 30'. You want a boat that is roomy enough to sail with frequent guests and you want a boat that handles overnights with the family ... in the first case you want a very roomy cockpit and in the second case you want a comfortable cabin. You won't get both. The parameters you mention seem to indicate that the largest boat you can afford is better. If you get a boat under 27' you will probably get 2-foot-itus almost immediately.
I'd day our boat has a fairly comfortable cabin (except for headroom if you are 6' as I am)for a 27' boat but the cockpit doesn't work for more than 3 adults, and even 3 is a crowd. However, our boat trades off headroom for performance, with a nice sleek profile that I think is more attractive. I also like that our boat is faster than most boats in her length, but it may not be important to other people. The beamyness of our boat provides nice wide side decks and teenagers love to sit on the deck, hanging on the lifelines with their feet over the side like the rail meat you see in the racing photos. The point is to look at all the features. Admittedly it is hard to know what the issues are until you gain experience.
Everybody has their own preferences, but I would steer you to a fixed-keel (fin or shoal draft) spade rudder style boat. You will trade off performance for comfort (particularly headroom). I would point you toward an inboard diesel ... in my case, I wanted to learn about diesels so that I was prepared when moving up, and I just don't like an outboard spoiling the lines of a sailboat.
Have no hesitation about a 70's or 80's boat that has been maintained well, but look carefully. DON'T get involved in a project boat that doesn't fit your needs and desires immediately ... your wife and kids may not have the patience. If it literally smells bad, move on (I learned the hard way) ... a boat with holding tank odor that permeates the cabin takes a lot of effort and time to eliminate. Cushion fabric and foam is very expensive to replace. DO get a boat with decent head.
That said, some projects are not essential and can be done over time and can be rewarding for your own enjoyment. This includes adding hardware for sailing convenience, or instruments and electronics. Or renewing the sail inventory. Or varnishing the brightwork and painting (say the mast and boom). Those types of things you can consider as upgrades that you can take time to do.
We store our boat at a yard with the mast up, with a custom cover and we don't have a trailer. There is a trade-off for not having a trailerable boat, but trailering a sailboat, as opposed to a ski boat, is a major hassle in my opinion. But I will acknowledge that there ARE perfectly valid differing opinions in that regard! Storage over the winter for us is expensive, for instance.
Especially in a boat under 30'. You want a boat that is roomy enough to sail with frequent guests and you want a boat that handles overnights with the family ... in the first case you want a very roomy cockpit and in the second case you want a comfortable cabin. You won't get both. The parameters you mention seem to indicate that the largest boat you can afford is better. If you get a boat under 27' you will probably get 2-foot-itus almost immediately.
I'd day our boat has a fairly comfortable cabin (except for headroom if you are 6' as I am)for a 27' boat but the cockpit doesn't work for more than 3 adults, and even 3 is a crowd. However, our boat trades off headroom for performance, with a nice sleek profile that I think is more attractive. I also like that our boat is faster than most boats in her length, but it may not be important to other people. The beamyness of our boat provides nice wide side decks and teenagers love to sit on the deck, hanging on the lifelines with their feet over the side like the rail meat you see in the racing photos. The point is to look at all the features. Admittedly it is hard to know what the issues are until you gain experience.
Everybody has their own preferences, but I would steer you to a fixed-keel (fin or shoal draft) spade rudder style boat. You will trade off performance for comfort (particularly headroom). I would point you toward an inboard diesel ... in my case, I wanted to learn about diesels so that I was prepared when moving up, and I just don't like an outboard spoiling the lines of a sailboat.
Have no hesitation about a 70's or 80's boat that has been maintained well, but look carefully. DON'T get involved in a project boat that doesn't fit your needs and desires immediately ... your wife and kids may not have the patience. If it literally smells bad, move on (I learned the hard way) ... a boat with holding tank odor that permeates the cabin takes a lot of effort and time to eliminate. Cushion fabric and foam is very expensive to replace. DO get a boat with decent head.
That said, some projects are not essential and can be done over time and can be rewarding for your own enjoyment. This includes adding hardware for sailing convenience, or instruments and electronics. Or renewing the sail inventory. Or varnishing the brightwork and painting (say the mast and boom). Those types of things you can consider as upgrades that you can take time to do.
We store our boat at a yard with the mast up, with a custom cover and we don't have a trailer. There is a trade-off for not having a trailerable boat, but trailering a sailboat, as opposed to a ski boat, is a major hassle in my opinion. But I will acknowledge that there ARE perfectly valid differing opinions in that regard! Storage over the winter for us is expensive, for instance.
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Don't take the smell issue lightly ... I overlooked the smell of our boat when making a purchase decision. PO's hadn't used the boat in a few years and apparently left with the tank full. We replaced all cushions and fabric, I replaced the head, and I replaced all hoses and vent lines. And I added ventilation fans specifically to deal with odors from the area where the holding tank resides. I have not exchanged the holding tank as that is a project that involves cutting an area out and I stopped short of that. After all that, I made enough progress to claim success, but it may not have been worth the effort involved if I would have avoided the trouble.
US Sailing has a site with PHRF listings of over 4000 different boat. It gives highest, lowest, and average
What to buy? my 2c
You want a boat for 5 people. first things first: forget about a trailerable boat. Trailer sailers are usually under 24ft. From what I gleaned Your looking for something in the 27' range. This means an older boat with a keel. There are many good choices out there. but 27 ft is the cutoff point for an outboard powered boat. You will find a lot more outboard powered boats at 25 -26 feet. You got your work cut out for you. spend a lot of time looking. and please dont buy a project boat. If you do your not gonna do much sailing. And finally: and Im probably gonna get a lot of flack for this last comment. Dont buy a boat with a 30+ year
old atomic 4 in it. When you need it the most ,it probably wont start. You will have to replace it with a Diesel inboard. Even a used one installed is gonna cost more than you paid for the boat.
You want a boat for 5 people. first things first: forget about a trailerable boat. Trailer sailers are usually under 24ft. From what I gleaned Your looking for something in the 27' range. This means an older boat with a keel. There are many good choices out there. but 27 ft is the cutoff point for an outboard powered boat. You will find a lot more outboard powered boats at 25 -26 feet. You got your work cut out for you. spend a lot of time looking. and please dont buy a project boat. If you do your not gonna do much sailing. And finally: and Im probably gonna get a lot of flack for this last comment. Dont buy a boat with a 30+ year
old atomic 4 in it. When you need it the most ,it probably wont start. You will have to replace it with a Diesel inboard. Even a used one installed is gonna cost more than you paid for the boat.
Not to seem crabby, but this is not so. The Ericson 27 is a Bruce King-designed fin-keel boat with a spade rudder and is quite fast in all but the lightest conditions. There are several thousand satisfied owners out there, too. You can find out lots about them by posting any questions at www.ericsonyachts.org.
The E-27 is one of the nicest all 'round cruiser/racers in that size range.
I have not owned one but have friends that do and I used to crew on one once in a while for club racing.
Also agree with others that you should consider a Catalina 27, which was one of the best sailing smaller Cats they ever built, especially if the rudder upgrade has been done.
L
The boat you buy should be the one that you fall in love with.
Did you marry your wife based on childbearing ability, potential income and proposed lack of health issues and possible trading up?
Buy a boat with your heart and not your wallet and you'll love it so much more.
(Sigh) So true.... and now you've brought Romance into the thread!
And again onto the List of Contenders -- Do not forget the Cal 2-27 and the C&C 27.
Best,
L
Is there a generalized difference between the 25'ers and 27'?
Nice Catalina http://burlington.craigslist.org/boa/1878876192.html
Nice Catalina http://burlington.craigslist.org/boa/1878876192.html
Lots to consider....
Yup. Boats grow in a geometric progression.... from 25 to 27 is generally quite a jump up.
LOA is only one part of the equation. Always consider displacement.
If you go aboard a Catalina 25 and then step onto a Catalina 27, you may be amazed at the increase in total volume inside.
For a given length, more beam and displacement will give you more living room, but once the beam/length ratio goes much over one to three, and the freeboard increases a lot, the sailing ability goes downhill rapidly. (This is only a concern if you plan on leaving the dock...)
A good designer can maximize all this, and (just one example) you will find that the Bruce king-designed Ericson 27 manages to give you about as much space with really good sailing ability as can be found in any similar size boat, new or old. The Cal 2-27 is an other similar combination of features....
In smaller performance cruisers there was quite a "sweet spot" right in the 26 to 28 foot range in the 70's and into the mid-80's.
______
Yup. Boats grow in a geometric progression.... from 25 to 27 is generally quite a jump up.
LOA is only one part of the equation. Always consider displacement.
If you go aboard a Catalina 25 and then step onto a Catalina 27, you may be amazed at the increase in total volume inside.
For a given length, more beam and displacement will give you more living room, but once the beam/length ratio goes much over one to three, and the freeboard increases a lot, the sailing ability goes downhill rapidly. (This is only a concern if you plan on leaving the dock...)
A good designer can maximize all this, and (just one example) you will find that the Bruce king-designed Ericson 27 manages to give you about as much space with really good sailing ability as can be found in any similar size boat, new or old. The Cal 2-27 is an other similar combination of features....
In smaller performance cruisers there was quite a "sweet spot" right in the 26 to 28 foot range in the 70's and into the mid-80's.
I'm not a fan of water-ballasted boats ...
Particulary on larger bodies of water. There is an account of a McGregor that capsized and several family members drowned on Lake Champlain. The boat had a large group on it during calm conditions (fireworks evening) and the water ballast tanks were empty for motoring. It seems that there is a requirement that the tanks must be full for stability under circumstances where that many people are on board. I think the kids were trapped in the cabin at the time the boat capsized. You can find the article with a google search, I am sure.
While this case appears to be operator error and not necessarily the fault of McGregor boats in particular, it does call into question the suitability of the boat for your particular interests.
OTOH, many McGregor fans will argue that the ability to reach a much larger geographical region for a weekend is more than enough reason to consider a McGregor on Lake Champlain.
Particulary on larger bodies of water. There is an account of a McGregor that capsized and several family members drowned on Lake Champlain. The boat had a large group on it during calm conditions (fireworks evening) and the water ballast tanks were empty for motoring. It seems that there is a requirement that the tanks must be full for stability under circumstances where that many people are on board. I think the kids were trapped in the cabin at the time the boat capsized. You can find the article with a google search, I am sure.
While this case appears to be operator error and not necessarily the fault of McGregor boats in particular, it does call into question the suitability of the boat for your particular interests.
OTOH, many McGregor fans will argue that the ability to reach a much larger geographical region for a weekend is more than enough reason to consider a McGregor on Lake Champlain.
I once owned a Mac 222 1978. Loved that boat. No major problems other than the swing keel winch and cable. Older boats will need newer things. The price is less because of this fact. I'd look for the well cared for boat. The Catalina that you sent looked interesting. Of course anything from 20 feet looks interesting. Been out on it? Take it for a sail and let the owner do all the work and watch and see how he loves (handles) his boat. Anybody can pay $300 for a detail job, so look carefully, beyond the shine, from stem to stern. It's one thing to spend $7000 for a boat and trailer then need $2000 sails the next year or $500 for some electrical work. Age of the anchor rode and rigging(lines) will tell a story. Check the boat both in and out of the water. Once you find the boat, investigate it carefully using the internet and all resources you can muster. You will become very familiar with her real fast, so you might as well do it at your leisure, before you make the leap.
At this point you are in the fun (anticipation) stage. Relax and enjoy it. It's some of the most fun you'll have.
Once you find the boat, let your wife pull the trigger (give the finial say). You'll never regret it. The kids will complain even if it were a 35 ft, so get use to that. The head and the electrical (batteries) are very important. You can see the sails and the rigging, both running and standing. Check the chain plates. I go for displacement (weight). I don't race. I poke along. Just be sure you have the towing power available for those hauls home and the space to keep it once you get it there.. Don't buy something that will leave you cash poor. The boat will see to that for ya. Enjoy and keep us informed. Did anybody mention that we like pictures?
Keep it up,
Ctskip
At this point you are in the fun (anticipation) stage. Relax and enjoy it. It's some of the most fun you'll have.
Once you find the boat, let your wife pull the trigger (give the finial say). You'll never regret it. The kids will complain even if it were a 35 ft, so get use to that. The head and the electrical (batteries) are very important. You can see the sails and the rigging, both running and standing. Check the chain plates. I go for displacement (weight). I don't race. I poke along. Just be sure you have the towing power available for those hauls home and the space to keep it once you get it there.. Don't buy something that will leave you cash poor. The boat will see to that for ya. Enjoy and keep us informed. Did anybody mention that we like pictures?
Keep it up,
Ctskip
I have a Lancer 25. It's fine for 3-4 people. We can sleep if the wife and I cuddle like college sweethearts on one birth. But, she isn't for you.
I look at boats and dream all the time. An observation that I've made is this;
Boats in our price range change character from the 70's to the 80's. IF you buy a 70's boat, the interior will be finished, wood trim, fabric walls, a mirror or two. When you get into the 80's (remember when oil went thru the roof, gas screamed to $1 per gallon?) the boats become more fiberglass, less finish and fewer bulkheads. They tend to look less like a yacht and more like a sailboat, if that makes any sense. I'm guessing because the resin became so expensive and because of the newly enacted luxury tax that put most sailboat manufacturers out of business.
So, the point is, if you can take a few more years on you hole-in-the-water, you may get a more cozy interior.
I look at boats and dream all the time. An observation that I've made is this;
Boats in our price range change character from the 70's to the 80's. IF you buy a 70's boat, the interior will be finished, wood trim, fabric walls, a mirror or two. When you get into the 80's (remember when oil went thru the roof, gas screamed to $1 per gallon?) the boats become more fiberglass, less finish and fewer bulkheads. They tend to look less like a yacht and more like a sailboat, if that makes any sense. I'm guessing because the resin became so expensive and because of the newly enacted luxury tax that put most sailboat manufacturers out of business.
So, the point is, if you can take a few more years on you hole-in-the-water, you may get a more cozy interior.
Hi VTSAILGUY
If speed isn't an issue than I would think stability would be a big priority with kids and guests aboard. That would lead me to look for a boat with a hard chine. They aren't fast but they are the most stable boats on the water. They hardly tip at the dock when loading and unloading and crew moving about the cockpit isn't going to be a hazard. I'm not going to say they won't capsize but you would have to really work at it.
My experience with hard chine boats came as a result of owning an old Luger Leeward 16. It was followed with an AMF Apollo and OMG!
Good luck with your search!
If speed isn't an issue than I would think stability would be a big priority with kids and guests aboard. That would lead me to look for a boat with a hard chine. They aren't fast but they are the most stable boats on the water. They hardly tip at the dock when loading and unloading and crew moving about the cockpit isn't going to be a hazard. I'm not going to say they won't capsize but you would have to really work at it.
My experience with hard chine boats came as a result of owning an old Luger Leeward 16. It was followed with an AMF Apollo and OMG!
Good luck with your search!
Fresh water boat
Fresh water sailed boats will generally be in better overall condition. I have a 1983 Cal 27 MK3 that is diesel powered. It has just enough room for your situation along with a long cockpit. Tiller steering will also gives you more room for entertaining. Some of this model have the wheel steering as well. There was one for sale where you are a few years ago, but they are not common on the market. I think they were asking just under $10K. On any boat watch for wet under and behind the cushions by the bulkheads, since the chain plates tend to leak on all sailboats. Bulging with cracks on the deck means the core material is wet and froze during the winter. I had some of those issues but was able to effect a good repair without too much work (we forget quickly). Lots of the people I sail with on western Lake Superior have older Catalina 27's, either inboard or outboard. I think the outboard is easier to deal with than the Atomic 4 for most people. Catalina has a great parts network. They have more head clearance than mine and are also heavier. The hardest thing is looking at boats because of the time and traveling it takes. Talk to the people in the marinas and mooring fields near where you sail. You will likely find the boat that works for you without too much trouble. I trailer mine seasonally and store it in a shed on my property 50 miles away. I basically mounted the cradle on a car trailer and have a 3/4 ton pickup with a 6.5 turbo diesel and tow it up and down a 6% grade to and from the lake. The towing expense (having a truck and dedicated trailer) is offset by the winter storage fees I would have paid. Seasonally stepping the mast allows me to inspect and maintain it and the rigging, but also costs money unless you do it yourself as some of my Cat owner friends do. Often boats in this size range will have some sort of trailer. Of course, trailering height should be no higher than the clear height of your shed or garage. Check your DOT for height and width restrictions. Getting road permits is not too big a deal.
Fresh water sailed boats will generally be in better overall condition. I have a 1983 Cal 27 MK3 that is diesel powered. It has just enough room for your situation along with a long cockpit. Tiller steering will also gives you more room for entertaining. Some of this model have the wheel steering as well. There was one for sale where you are a few years ago, but they are not common on the market. I think they were asking just under $10K. On any boat watch for wet under and behind the cushions by the bulkheads, since the chain plates tend to leak on all sailboats. Bulging with cracks on the deck means the core material is wet and froze during the winter. I had some of those issues but was able to effect a good repair without too much work (we forget quickly). Lots of the people I sail with on western Lake Superior have older Catalina 27's, either inboard or outboard. I think the outboard is easier to deal with than the Atomic 4 for most people. Catalina has a great parts network. They have more head clearance than mine and are also heavier. The hardest thing is looking at boats because of the time and traveling it takes. Talk to the people in the marinas and mooring fields near where you sail. You will likely find the boat that works for you without too much trouble. I trailer mine seasonally and store it in a shed on my property 50 miles away. I basically mounted the cradle on a car trailer and have a 3/4 ton pickup with a 6.5 turbo diesel and tow it up and down a 6% grade to and from the lake. The towing expense (having a truck and dedicated trailer) is offset by the winter storage fees I would have paid. Seasonally stepping the mast allows me to inspect and maintain it and the rigging, but also costs money unless you do it yourself as some of my Cat owner friends do. Often boats in this size range will have some sort of trailer. Of course, trailering height should be no higher than the clear height of your shed or garage. Check your DOT for height and width restrictions. Getting road permits is not too big a deal.
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