The inside track

[Scott T-Bird]

I am thinking about additional projects so one of the things that I'm a little dissatisfied with is pointing ability on our boat. I can attribute it to shoal draft keel but I'm also thinking that the track for the genny is too far outboard and that it would be simple to add an inside track. In the photo's the length from the shroud to the rope end is 5.5 feet and the distance from the outside track to the cabin edge is close to 18 inches. I really want to keep the track up against the cabin to keep the deck clear and I figure that the center of the inside track can be a good 16 inches to the inside of the outside track. The only thing I am pondering is how far aft to run the track. I want to keep it tucked in so it doesn't extend along the coaming (the coaming curves out into the deck), but the outside track extends aft about 22 inches aft from that rope. I could easily fit a 6' track if I moved it slightly aft from the shroud base.

I know about the theoretical calculations to determine the optimum positions, but somehow it always seems that the deck layout and practicality override. Any thoughts?

 

[Winkfish]

Is your jib that big where you'll need that extra 5" or are you just thinking form an "easy to get the 6' piece of track" point of view? If you need the extra 6 inches, how about splitting your 6' track, the first piece going along the cabin, the next shorter piece to go along the coaming. It would be somewhat of a PITA to get to the aft track every time you wanted to, but you could use a second block for that aft piece if you had occasion to set the sheet that far back.

Otherwise, it looks like you'd just have to come out from the cabin edge a bit, just angle it for maximum deck space.

 

[OldCat]

Test First, spend later...

It is a great idea - but - will it work with the shoal draft keel? Perhaps you could find an owner of a similar boat who has done the mod? Or:

Test First, spend later if you can. Perhaps you could rig some sort of reverse Barber hauler to pull the sheeting point in and see if it helps first? Then you might be able to determine with a GPS and "velocity made good" to find out whether this is worth the expense and holes in the boat.

The boat's designer may have matched the sheeting angle to the keel's abilities. Or, maybe your boat lacks inside tracks that were an option for racing - I'd try to find out before drilling holes.

OC
tich tor ang tesmur

 

[Steve Dion]

Some dogs just aren't going to fetch.

Some boats just aren't going to point.

 

[RichH]

Forget the calculations as the 'distance opening' of the 'slot' is dependent on actual conditions. Ie. the higher the wind speed the more open the slot, etc.

I suggest you do some data accumulation using a 'barber hauler' FIRST and under varying wind and boat speeds. All this however requires that the sails (and rig) are trimmed and shaped to perfection via the use a complete set of tell tales. Such directions can be obtained from www.arvelgentry.com ---> magazine articles ----> a series of four articles:
Checking Trim on the Wind, November 1973
Achieving Proper Balance, December 1973
Sailing to Windward, January 1974
Are You at Optimum Trim?, March 1974
.... and I think youll find out how to use a barber hauler in the last article.

BTW ... for most 'fine bowed' boats properly set up (tuned/trimmed/shaped), etc. that clew offset (slot) angle for sailing in 12-15 kts. will be usually be at ~10 degrees on a line from the tack to the clew and with reference offset to the boats centerline. The barberhauler while following the tell tales will allow better adjustment.

Its a lotta work to derive all this from empiracal data ... the 'work' is getting the boat up to perfection before you start 'futzing' with a barber hauler or 'inside track'.

BTW - THE most important component to make a boat 'point' is to have the forestay tension correct so that the stay sag off to leeward EXACTLY matches the 'curvature' (luff hollow) that was cut into the front section of its luff. You can email me and Ill respond with a .pdf for a 'detailed' discussion of exactly how to do the forestay/luff hollow 'matching'.

 

[s sauer]

Previous points are on track (pun intended) but I'd suggest the place to start on pointing is under the boat. Smooth out the bottom, fair in the hull to keel joint and us a smooth finish bottom paint for less drag. Then change to a folding prop and do the best you can with sail upgrades...either new or used... then use a barber hauler. Inside tracks....may be completely wasted effort if you don't reduce drag....you may feel like you are pointing better only to find you are just making more lee way. If you still have your heart set on putting on the tracks, at least locate them with respect to the actual sheeting angle of the headsail(s) you intend to use.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Scott, I just couldn't resist:

Why not "do" your traveler?

 

[Joe]

Simply speaking.... the sail will determine where you put the new track. Or if you plan to buy a new sail, install the track and measure the sail to match its location. Looking at your pics, you could put a short track on the deck and another short one on the coaming.

Before you do all that though... I'd consider RichH's suggestion and experiment with barberhualing. You don't have to create anything fancy or expensive. Clipping a line to the sheet and running it cross the cabin top to a winch so you can pull the sheet inboard a few inches may give you an indication of the effectiveness of reducing your sheeting angle.... play with it.... I have an inside location for the genny, but not for the blade, so I've tried barberhauling with the simple technique described and found there is some improvement.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Thanks for replys!

There are a lot of good points. Stu, I am doing the traveler, that was the easy decision after last week's discussion! I have to purchase a 5' Schaefer track and custom fit it and since I was ordering a track, it got me thinking about the jib tracks once again. I am thinking that I am going to get a pair of 6' tracks for the jib.

Rich, that was a great point about the headsail sag. I have made adjustments and did improve pointing in that regard. I have a split backstay and intend to rig a tensioner so that I can make adjustments for the sailing conditions and point of sail. That is another project that I can handle without much difficulty.

Joe, I have experimented with the barberhauler and found that it does make a difference, but with respect to Rich's comments I find that unfortunately, we just don't have a nice fetch of water with consistent wind conditions to really focus on sail trim optimization. We normally have to tack within five minutes of the last tack and the wind just plain veers around way to inconsistenly. That is the downside of sailing on Lake Hopatcong. Besides that, with regard to bottom painting, it's not been done since we bought the boat in 2004. The yard where I keep her (the only yard on the lake that CAN hoist her out and store her), doesn't bottom paint and won't allow me to sandblast, scrape, or paint. So I just religiously scrub the bottom every month or whatever it takes to keep the slime off. The bottom is faired at the keel joint and the bottom has smoothed out considerably over the years. The condition of the bottom paint when we bought her was disgraceful, it was so rough and peeling down to layers underneath!

I was almost successful in getting an agreement to move the boat over to Haverstraw on the Hudson for our vacation next week but it seems that it is going to wait until next year! So I am considering projects instead. I think the boat is worth the effort. I don't think the shoal draft keel was a factor in the design for track positions since the standard keel is a deeper fin. Besides, I think the boat has a decent pedigree for performance having an advertised phrf number of anywhere from 174 to 183 depending on where you look, which is about as low as a 27' boat gets. So I have been motivated to set her up for performance.

I can easily set backing plates as long as I keep the track on the deck. Setting the track on the coaming would be a much more complicated affair so I am not inclined to set up multiple tracks. I was more or less interested in comments on lengthening the track and angling it out for the coaming or keeping it shorter and snug to the cabin sides. With my 150 genny, I normally have the traveler no further back (for pointing and the right amount of twist) than the fairlead you see in the picture. Further back and twist is getting pretty excessive. That position is just a little further back than the point where the coaming curves out. I am thinking that if I need to move the fairlead back than the coaming, I may be better off shortening sail.

Another piece to the puzzle is that when I purchase a furler/reefer, I will have my 150 genny re-cut and probably buy a smaller genny for high wind situations, so the cut can accomodate any set-up I desire.

Again, thanks for the comments!

 

[CalebD]

Pardon the thread drift.
Haverstraw Bay is a nice place to sail. So is the Hudson north of the Tappan Zee. Our boat is at Nyack Boat Club which is a great club and worth checking out, IMHO.
There is also a small club called Hook Mountain Yacht Club.
The river is about 3 miles wide and nearly 10 miles long at that width.
There is at least 1 DIY boat yard at Stony Point.
Some good PHRF racing at NBC and other Hudson locations. The big difference with Lake Hopatcong will be tides and current. The wind can still be a bit fluky but is generally pretty good.
If you could get to Nyack on a Weds. by 5:30 or so the PHRF races start at 6:30. Someone is usually looking for crew. Might be a good way to check out the club and area. PM me if you like.

 

[Joe]

Joe, I have experimented with the barberhauler and found that it does make a difference, but with respect to Rich's comments I find that unfortunately, we just don't have a nice fetch of water with consistent wind conditions to really focus on sail trim optimization. We normally have to tack within five minutes of the last tack and the wind just plain veers around way to inconsistenly. That is the downside of sailing on Lake Hopatcong.

Sounds like perfect conditions for a the barberhauler instead of switching between tracks.

 

[Todd Smith]

Scott,

When you did your barber hauler experiment, did you test for actual VMG increase to windward ? You might have achieved a better angle to the wind, but increased leeway enough to offset the improvement.

You can test the VMG with a GPS by setting a waypoint far upwind and looking at VMC/VMG to that waypoint. You could also check your COG ( course over ground ).

 

[rardiH36]

For the barberhauler experiment: As a way to indicate if pulling the clew more inboard with a barberhauler improves pointing ability, wouldn't observing the jib's telltales at the luff be an alternative to trying measure if speed is increased?:

- that is, observe the best apparent pointing angle that has both windward and leeward telltales flowing back nicely without the barberhauler. Then pull in the clew with the barberhauler, play with normal jibsheet, and see if the telltales will now indicate that the sail now also can be "in the grove" with the boat pointing a bit higher into the wind. This determination presumes that you've got apparent wind direction instruments on board, or you can see how well you're point by looking at your mast-top mounted wind vane with the two "tacking arms" that point aft for reference.

I really don't know if this is an valid test, but seems reasonable.

Scott: My boat has the shrouds entering the deck only a few inches inside the toe rail. Rather than a jib track mounted on the deck, the boat was designed to use snap blocks attached into the toe rail "holes" as the jib fairlead anchor points. So my "jib track" is about as far out as can be possible. Because the shrouds are so far out, an inside track wouldn't help too much. Also I'm not keen on drilling into my deck plus I like the uncluttered/clean look.

To compensate, when close-hauled, I do use a barberhauler a lot to pull inward on the clew so that the sail is almost touching the shrouds. Depending on wind velocity, I can get the sail (or clew depending on how much head sail I've got out) up to 1.5 feet closer in than with the toe rail fairleads on their own. The sail does draw better when I'm close-hauled and barber-hauled and I feel that I am going faster to wind. But the difference in pointing angle is more subtle ... might make a just few degrees improvement, but with my shoal draft keel, old sails, and maybe other hull design factors, I'm still not able to match deeper keeled performance boats.

From my barberhauler experience (which take heed is derived from my fumbling attempts only -- no expert help was found to assist at the time), one issue with a barberhauler is the need to remember when its attached. The barberhauler line must be released prior to the jib being eased and certainly before tacking. Then put in place again after the tack. If you are beating back and forth into the wind frequently, this is considerable extra demand on the tacking process, particularly if beating up a narrow channel.

 

[Todd Smith]

rardi,

The low work version of a barber hauler is a line the a block that the jib sheet runs through. You would have a separate barber hauler on each side. You can ease and tack without touching this type of barber hauler system.

Also known as an "in-haul".

 

[rardiH36]

Todd:

Thanks. I have heard about the line and block method before, but have never actually seen a set-up. I presume each jib sheet (port and starboard) is led through a block between the clew and the fairlead block and the block is attached to a line that is rigged so it can be hauled-in as desired. But what I can't picture is what prevents the block from banging around during tacking when the sheet is loose, or at any other time when the jibsheet might get out of control and go slack?. Also what keeps the sheet and block from getting tangled when the two lines are loose and might be flogging?

Can you describe more? I'm truly interested. Or maybe you know of an article somewhere describing the setup?

regards,
rardi

 

[Todd Smith]

rardi,

They use pretty light weight blocks. Some times is just a ring or a fairlead without a sheave. They just let em flop around. I have only actually sailed on one boat that used them. A Grand Solei 37. That is an IRC race boat without big genoas.

Here is a site that shows at least one picture:
http://www.destinationonedesign.com/prep/index.aspx?subsection=3bd0802debdb45ae8a757d335ded8801

 

[rardiH36]

Todd:

Saved your link to my "favorites" folder. Thanks. I will need to give some thought. My sheets are routed outside the shrouds. So any haul-in system would never get the sheet "inside the grab rails" as shown in the setup on your link's picture. It might be fun sometime while on a tack to temporarily reroute the lazy sheet inside the shroud. Then tack into a close-haul course and haul in the sheet close to the cabin top.

regards,