Happy New Year Everyone! It's an especially happy new year for me as I can now report that the Suffolk County Sheriff's Office in NY was able to collect the money owed to me by The Canvas Store! I haven't gotten the funds yet, but I just spoke with the Sheriff's clerk and they collected all $1746 I am owed, and will be forwarding me the funds when it gets through their process. TCS probably realized all along that they weren't going to get out of the judgement, but justed wanted to make it as difficult as possible for me to collect it. I am truly sorry that I had to put TCS through this, but I gave them every opportunity to work with me back in 2005/06 and they simply refused to be reasonable. Thank you all for your words of support in my past posts, and thanks to those who contacted me in various ways to try to help. And thanks to Phil for this Forum so all of us can share ideas, experiences, expertise, and cameraderie! Fair Winds, Tim ~~~~_/)~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~
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?!?!?!?!
"I am truly sorry that I had to put TCS through this" What are you, NUTS? After what they put you through? THEY should be sorry it came to this. Personally, I would have been happier if they were shut down! I hope the scumbags at TCS lose a fortune over this. Cheers, Bob
"I am truly sorry that I had to put TCS through this" What are you, NUTS? After what they put you through? THEY should be sorry it came to this. Personally, I would have been happier if they were shut down! I hope the scumbags at TCS lose a fortune over this. Cheers, Bob
we'll never know
As they say, there are two sides to every story and I suspect we'll never know the other side. It's not always possible to infer guilt based upon a court's judgement as we all know. I have recently seen their work on a similar boat which was very good so I don't think any of us are capable of making an informed judgement. As always, buyer beware...
As they say, there are two sides to every story and I suspect we'll never know the other side. It's not always possible to infer guilt based upon a court's judgement as we all know. I have recently seen their work on a similar boat which was very good so I don't think any of us are capable of making an informed judgement. As always, buyer beware...
Well actually...
I've not followed this through all the posts, but if a court did find them liable, and they did present their side of the story, it seems that we can take the court's judgment at face value. OJ aside, they don't usually get these types of matters that wrong. If TCS didn't show up at court, which resulted in a default judgment, the court didn't hear their side. But they let it stand, which says something in itself. Congrats on winning the case.
I've not followed this through all the posts, but if a court did find them liable, and they did present their side of the story, it seems that we can take the court's judgment at face value. OJ aside, they don't usually get these types of matters that wrong. If TCS didn't show up at court, which resulted in a default judgment, the court didn't hear their side. But they let it stand, which says something in itself. Congrats on winning the case.
Interest paid
Brian, The original amount I paid was $1406. The judgement included interest, court costs, and even the Sheriff's fee for collection. My total expenses not recovered are probably $100, plus my time through all of this. Tim
Brian, The original amount I paid was $1406. The judgement included interest, court costs, and even the Sheriff's fee for collection. My total expenses not recovered are probably $100, plus my time through all of this. Tim
Their side?
Actually they had every opportunity to give their side. In fact the VP wrote to this forum with their explaination which seemed a litle weak. As to them winning... no way. This thread went on for a long time and a LOT of sailors read it. I am pretty certain they have lost a lot of potential customers over this. When you run a business, the most important thing you have to insure you will prosper is customer loyality. You gain cusmtoer loyalty by treating customers fairly and with respect. They failed. Refunding money to dis-satisfied customers is a part of doing business
Actually they had every opportunity to give their side. In fact the VP wrote to this forum with their explaination which seemed a litle weak. As to them winning... no way. This thread went on for a long time and a LOT of sailors read it. I am pretty certain they have lost a lot of potential customers over this. When you run a business, the most important thing you have to insure you will prosper is customer loyality. You gain cusmtoer loyalty by treating customers fairly and with respect. They failed. Refunding money to dis-satisfied customers is a part of doing business
Way to go!
I like a great ending. It will inspire some of us to demand satisfaction from companies and/or people who put profit before service. This type of contempt and lack of integrity is a so prevalent in today's society that it makes me sick. Who continues to support these jerks. I've been on both sides of the fence. I owned a service related business for more than fifteen years and presently represent several manufacturers in a business to business environment. I am also a customer. Clients expect the best that I can offer. No lies, no false promises, just a good product, a fair price and great service. My customers would drop me in a New York minute if I didn't deliver what I promised. I still expect service and respect when I shop. I do business with someone who has the expertise and knowledge to deliver the goods and educate me when necessary. In return, I tell other people and continue to do business with them. Screw me once, I'll find somebody else and tell everbody I know. Save me a buck or spend an extra ten minutes with me and you've got me for life. It's that simple.
I like a great ending. It will inspire some of us to demand satisfaction from companies and/or people who put profit before service. This type of contempt and lack of integrity is a so prevalent in today's society that it makes me sick. Who continues to support these jerks. I've been on both sides of the fence. I owned a service related business for more than fifteen years and presently represent several manufacturers in a business to business environment. I am also a customer. Clients expect the best that I can offer. No lies, no false promises, just a good product, a fair price and great service. My customers would drop me in a New York minute if I didn't deliver what I promised. I still expect service and respect when I shop. I do business with someone who has the expertise and knowledge to deliver the goods and educate me when necessary. In return, I tell other people and continue to do business with them. Screw me once, I'll find somebody else and tell everbody I know. Save me a buck or spend an extra ten minutes with me and you've got me for life. It's that simple.
The TCS is a disgrace!
The issues about the “other side of the story” is mute at this point. They lost the case in court and were ordered to pay up. They not only screwed up the way they handled the poor canvas work, they were disgraceful in the manner in which they declined to pay the court ordered fines. This company, The Canvas Shop, is low life. Nobody in their right mind should ever trust them enough to even consider doing business. They don’t stand behind their work or their word. When you run a business what else is there? Kudos to the Suffolk County Sheriff for collecting your money.
The issues about the “other side of the story” is mute at this point. They lost the case in court and were ordered to pay up. They not only screwed up the way they handled the poor canvas work, they were disgraceful in the manner in which they declined to pay the court ordered fines. This company, The Canvas Shop, is low life. Nobody in their right mind should ever trust them enough to even consider doing business. They don’t stand behind their work or their word. When you run a business what else is there? Kudos to the Suffolk County Sheriff for collecting your money.
AXEL thanks for saving me some typing!
Those guys were tried and 'CONVICTED'. End of story. There's faces can now go on 'milk cartons' for all the world to know.
Those guys were tried and 'CONVICTED'. End of story. There's faces can now go on 'milk cartons' for all the world to know.
This is a bit rough to let go...
How many of you know Tim? Tim had a story. TCS is a business. Busineses are working on very narrow margins. They must deal with easy people and difficult people. I am saying difficult people that nothing would satisfy them. I am not saying that Tim is one of those. I am saying that the business probably did what it was asked. Yes businesses screw things up once in a while. Was it the owner? Probably not. It was probably an employee. Alot of people get away with alot of things because thier legal council is better than the other guys. I work in a specialized area, and I have chosen not to hire alot of employees. I am hands on and work with all my clients. I don't make the kind of money that alot of you make. I could not think of owning nor docking some of your boats. Yet, I here how this company stole money from Tim because Tim said so. Yes, the court said that they own Tim. My point is do you want to run a business ( owner and employees) into the ground? Tim, my hope is that you did not blow this out of proportion. You have definately done damage to the business. Like I asked before, that you did not answer, what do you do for a living and do you understand problems with employees? If not is your business big enough to absorb a $2000 mistake plus the time it took to deal with it? I hope that you are protected from liable, because if I were TCS, I would carefully check what you have said and come back at you. I am not saying who is right or wrong, I am saying this has all been hearsay. I wish this would have stopped with a warning about doing business with TCS and let it go. There is a BBB but their is no "Better Consumer Bureau" where businesses can check out consumers as to how they consume. r.w.landau
How many of you know Tim? Tim had a story. TCS is a business. Busineses are working on very narrow margins. They must deal with easy people and difficult people. I am saying difficult people that nothing would satisfy them. I am not saying that Tim is one of those. I am saying that the business probably did what it was asked. Yes businesses screw things up once in a while. Was it the owner? Probably not. It was probably an employee. Alot of people get away with alot of things because thier legal council is better than the other guys. I work in a specialized area, and I have chosen not to hire alot of employees. I am hands on and work with all my clients. I don't make the kind of money that alot of you make. I could not think of owning nor docking some of your boats. Yet, I here how this company stole money from Tim because Tim said so. Yes, the court said that they own Tim. My point is do you want to run a business ( owner and employees) into the ground? Tim, my hope is that you did not blow this out of proportion. You have definately done damage to the business. Like I asked before, that you did not answer, what do you do for a living and do you understand problems with employees? If not is your business big enough to absorb a $2000 mistake plus the time it took to deal with it? I hope that you are protected from liable, because if I were TCS, I would carefully check what you have said and come back at you. I am not saying who is right or wrong, I am saying this has all been hearsay. I wish this would have stopped with a warning about doing business with TCS and let it go. There is a BBB but their is no "Better Consumer Bureau" where businesses can check out consumers as to how they consume. r.w.landau
Hearsay??
Hearsay? Several posters including RW sound dubious of the original claim. Tim posted a comprehensive synopsis with pictures and it all seemed to be factual. The only damage done to THE CANVAS STORE was done by their management. I would say now is not the time to question Tim's experience or defend TCS. Congrats Tim!
Hearsay? Several posters including RW sound dubious of the original claim. Tim posted a comprehensive synopsis with pictures and it all seemed to be factual. The only damage done to THE CANVAS STORE was done by their management. I would say now is not the time to question Tim's experience or defend TCS. Congrats Tim!
See my site
R.W., If you haven't seen my site, check the link I put on the post, and the Archives for the previous thread. The pictures speak for themselves. The cover was not even close to fitting my boat. Others on this Forum have indicated similar problems with TCS. I tried for 15 MONTHS to get TCS to address the problem. They insisted the cover fit and I was installing it improperly. I had another TCS cover owner verify that HE couldn't make it fit. The cover could never be installed properly because it wasn't right, period. I have photographic proof in side-by-side comparison of one of their covers that DID fit an identical model boat in my area. The TCS owner DID show up in court, and admitted under oath that the cover did not fit when tried on a sistership near his shop. That was AFTER 15 months of trying to reason with him before I filed the claim, and 20 months by the time we went to court. The first promise, a NEW cover not a recut cover, was broken. The second promise, a refund if it didn't fit a the boat near him was broken. The court's judgement was IGNORED to the point I had to go through a collection process. I gave TCS ample notification as to what I would do if they refused to refund my money after 15 months. I even waited until I prevailed in court and didn't get paid to go public. Hope that clears it up. Regards, Tim
R.W., If you haven't seen my site, check the link I put on the post, and the Archives for the previous thread. The pictures speak for themselves. The cover was not even close to fitting my boat. Others on this Forum have indicated similar problems with TCS. I tried for 15 MONTHS to get TCS to address the problem. They insisted the cover fit and I was installing it improperly. I had another TCS cover owner verify that HE couldn't make it fit. The cover could never be installed properly because it wasn't right, period. I have photographic proof in side-by-side comparison of one of their covers that DID fit an identical model boat in my area. The TCS owner DID show up in court, and admitted under oath that the cover did not fit when tried on a sistership near his shop. That was AFTER 15 months of trying to reason with him before I filed the claim, and 20 months by the time we went to court. The first promise, a NEW cover not a recut cover, was broken. The second promise, a refund if it didn't fit a the boat near him was broken. The court's judgement was IGNORED to the point I had to go through a collection process. I gave TCS ample notification as to what I would do if they refused to refund my money after 15 months. I even waited until I prevailed in court and didn't get paid to go public. Hope that clears it up. Regards, Tim
Landau Do you know the facts !?
Or are you just ranting to protect some business owner? Have you been following the DETAILS of this story !? Lets analyze your statements one by one and set the record straight (once again for those not motivated enough to read the facts available to them) "I am saying that the business probably did what it was asked." No they didn't . He ordered and PAID for a a cover for a Beneteau 321 and it came out fitting horribly & looking like the picture attached (more pictures of the ill fitting winter cover here http://hometown.aol.com/tkp62/index.html ) The TCS never said that Tim asked for the wrong cover or wrong product. They just said that it "should be fitting fine"..blah, blah blah and then stonewalled Tim from Oct '04 to Apr '06 "Yes businesses screw things up once in a while. Was it the owner? Probably not. It was probably an employee. Alot of people get away with alot of things because thier legal council is better than the other guys. Yeah. So whats your point !?! Are you saying that Tim should eat the lost money and cost of buying a product that doesn't work. Thats LUDICROUS. Its the TCS owners responsibilty if his employee screwed up NOT Tim's "My point is do you want to run a business ( owner and employees) into the ground? " WHAT !?! Are you crazy ? So the alternative is to continue letting sleezeball business, with slimey practices continue to rip-off people? In the days before the internet and knowledge sharing this guy could have done it to every other customer that ordered from him. You are advocating terrible business's to continue taking money from unsuspecting consumers. If they can't produce the product profitably then they should go out of business. Either lower the price or raise the quality comensurate with the price . If you want sub par products and sub par economy we can change fronm a capitalist economy to a communistic one. Many such business proliferated and florished that were slimey and god bless this kind of forum which keeps business honest. "Tim, my hope is that you did not blow this out of proportion. You have definately done damage to the business." If Tim didn't do what he did it would just encourage TCS to continue the harmfull business practices to the next guy that would get ripped off by them. I say THANK YOU TIM ! "Like I asked before, that you did not answer, what do you do for a living and do you understand problems with employees? If not is your business big enough to absorb a $2000 mistake plus the time it took to deal with it?" That is such Bull ! So its TIM'S responsibility that he paid premium $$ for a very sub par product !?? That is LUDICROUS ! Why should Tim be out the $2000 when its obviously the fault of the people that RUN TCS. If they can't run a business their error shouldn't come out of the consumers pocket. If you screwed up something I paid you for should then "I" have to pay for it !?!? HELL NO ! and I would take YOU to court to get my money back or right the wrong (full disclosure - I have NEVER sued anyone or taken anyone to court in all my decades on this planet. I will tell you this though, if I had someone as 'flippant' about this whole thing as TCS or you seem to be about it, I bet I would !) "I hope that you are protected from liable, because if I were TCS, I would carefully check what you have said and come back at you. I am not saying who is right or wrong, I am saying this has all been hearsay. " You OBVIOUSLY haven't been following along. In FACT a TCS representive did respond and had the lamest response and never once did they say any of the facts or fitting of the cover and pictures that Tim took were not real. They just played the STONEWALL game so many business do and just hope the one that got ripped off tires and goes away There is a BBB but their is no "Better Consumer Bureau" where businesses can check out consumers as to how they consume. Landau that is just ANOTHER ridiculous statement. Tell you what, if it makes ya feel anybetter why don't you send TCS some cash If you want an example of a diametrical opposed business to the TCS its "Garhauer Marine". They are a small family owned business that does it RIGHT !! Of course they are not perfect and I know they screw up things once in a while, but when they do they take care of you and make it right ! (We all know stories of how they take things back and fix then and never charge a dime) Their customer service is so consistent that word has gotten around that they are really good to work with. I know they will always get my business and make sure I tell people that they are one of the best if you want marine hardware. So whatever money they lose when they take things back and have to spend more money and time fixing it to get it right, they end getting new business back in SPADES. THAT is the way to run a business -- Maybe TCS needs to learn a lesson from Garhauer on how to run a business
Or are you just ranting to protect some business owner? Have you been following the DETAILS of this story !? Lets analyze your statements one by one and set the record straight (once again for those not motivated enough to read the facts available to them) "I am saying that the business probably did what it was asked." No they didn't . He ordered and PAID for a a cover for a Beneteau 321 and it came out fitting horribly & looking like the picture attached (more pictures of the ill fitting winter cover here http://hometown.aol.com/tkp62/index.html ) The TCS never said that Tim asked for the wrong cover or wrong product. They just said that it "should be fitting fine"..blah, blah blah and then stonewalled Tim from Oct '04 to Apr '06 "Yes businesses screw things up once in a while. Was it the owner? Probably not. It was probably an employee. Alot of people get away with alot of things because thier legal council is better than the other guys. Yeah. So whats your point !?! Are you saying that Tim should eat the lost money and cost of buying a product that doesn't work. Thats LUDICROUS. Its the TCS owners responsibilty if his employee screwed up NOT Tim's "My point is do you want to run a business ( owner and employees) into the ground? " WHAT !?! Are you crazy ? So the alternative is to continue letting sleezeball business, with slimey practices continue to rip-off people? In the days before the internet and knowledge sharing this guy could have done it to every other customer that ordered from him. You are advocating terrible business's to continue taking money from unsuspecting consumers. If they can't produce the product profitably then they should go out of business. Either lower the price or raise the quality comensurate with the price . If you want sub par products and sub par economy we can change fronm a capitalist economy to a communistic one. Many such business proliferated and florished that were slimey and god bless this kind of forum which keeps business honest. "Tim, my hope is that you did not blow this out of proportion. You have definately done damage to the business." If Tim didn't do what he did it would just encourage TCS to continue the harmfull business practices to the next guy that would get ripped off by them. I say THANK YOU TIM ! "Like I asked before, that you did not answer, what do you do for a living and do you understand problems with employees? If not is your business big enough to absorb a $2000 mistake plus the time it took to deal with it?" That is such Bull ! So its TIM'S responsibility that he paid premium $$ for a very sub par product !?? That is LUDICROUS ! Why should Tim be out the $2000 when its obviously the fault of the people that RUN TCS. If they can't run a business their error shouldn't come out of the consumers pocket. If you screwed up something I paid you for should then "I" have to pay for it !?!? HELL NO ! and I would take YOU to court to get my money back or right the wrong (full disclosure - I have NEVER sued anyone or taken anyone to court in all my decades on this planet. I will tell you this though, if I had someone as 'flippant' about this whole thing as TCS or you seem to be about it, I bet I would !) "I hope that you are protected from liable, because if I were TCS, I would carefully check what you have said and come back at you. I am not saying who is right or wrong, I am saying this has all been hearsay. " You OBVIOUSLY haven't been following along. In FACT a TCS representive did respond and had the lamest response and never once did they say any of the facts or fitting of the cover and pictures that Tim took were not real. They just played the STONEWALL game so many business do and just hope the one that got ripped off tires and goes away There is a BBB but their is no "Better Consumer Bureau" where businesses can check out consumers as to how they consume. Landau that is just ANOTHER ridiculous statement. Tell you what, if it makes ya feel anybetter why don't you send TCS some cash If you want an example of a diametrical opposed business to the TCS its "Garhauer Marine". They are a small family owned business that does it RIGHT !! Of course they are not perfect and I know they screw up things once in a while, but when they do they take care of you and make it right ! (We all know stories of how they take things back and fix then and never charge a dime) Their customer service is so consistent that word has gotten around that they are really good to work with. I know they will always get my business and make sure I tell people that they are one of the best if you want marine hardware. So whatever money they lose when they take things back and have to spend more money and time fixing it to get it right, they end getting new business back in SPADES. THAT is the way to run a business -- Maybe TCS needs to learn a lesson from Garhauer on how to run a business
Business attitude
In my opinion, some poor old investor hired some jerk to run the company and they really don't give a hoot. Someone up the totem pole might have told the jerk to refuse refunds because of a prior instance. Just remember: Common sense is dead. That's a common problem of a hands off small business owner overly rely on employees without serious oversight. I had a few encounters like that in my life. Althought I didn't go thru the extreme measure to sue because the sum was low enough for me to sweat it. I did spread the words. Tim is right to spread the words too. Just stay with the facts,,,, just the facts. My $0.02.
In my opinion, some poor old investor hired some jerk to run the company and they really don't give a hoot. Someone up the totem pole might have told the jerk to refuse refunds because of a prior instance. Just remember: Common sense is dead. That's a common problem of a hands off small business owner overly rely on employees without serious oversight. I had a few encounters like that in my life. Althought I didn't go thru the extreme measure to sue because the sum was low enough for me to sweat it. I did spread the words. Tim is right to spread the words too. Just stay with the facts,,,, just the facts. My $0.02.
Facts still provided by Tim.
Tim I still have nothing against you. I have followed this and asked questions. Ok, I will go with you guys! Tim is the easiest guy to do business with. Screw those guys, the owner and employees alike. Is that what you want to hear? You guys should protect yourselves from stuff like this. It may be your job or your business. All it takes is one mistake or one disgruntled client to put you out of business. OK, buy your crap form China, or France! I chose to continue to give an established business my support so that the business stays afloat. Sometimes it takes working with the business. I have challenged this post since it was posted, Have you not followed that? You guys have ganged up on a business just because someone here has said they were bad. I can remember a challenge about SailCare. I am glad that people spoke out about SailCare to support them! That was a case of someone expecting something and then bad mouthing on this forum. I am saying that derating a business here is wrong. A warning is fine. But to slander a business is wrong. I am sure that Phil here is careful as to how things happen in his shop. What would happen to this forum if one of you disgruntled (probably not rightfully) people attacked this forum? Warnings are fine. The relentless pursuit of revenge is wrong. Tim got his money. Is the business run better today? the truth is you don't care. You would rather not even take the chance. Next thing you know it will be the government that sent sail/boat covers overseas... r.w.landau
Tim I still have nothing against you. I have followed this and asked questions. Ok, I will go with you guys! Tim is the easiest guy to do business with. Screw those guys, the owner and employees alike. Is that what you want to hear? You guys should protect yourselves from stuff like this. It may be your job or your business. All it takes is one mistake or one disgruntled client to put you out of business. OK, buy your crap form China, or France! I chose to continue to give an established business my support so that the business stays afloat. Sometimes it takes working with the business. I have challenged this post since it was posted, Have you not followed that? You guys have ganged up on a business just because someone here has said they were bad. I can remember a challenge about SailCare. I am glad that people spoke out about SailCare to support them! That was a case of someone expecting something and then bad mouthing on this forum. I am saying that derating a business here is wrong. A warning is fine. But to slander a business is wrong. I am sure that Phil here is careful as to how things happen in his shop. What would happen to this forum if one of you disgruntled (probably not rightfully) people attacked this forum? Warnings are fine. The relentless pursuit of revenge is wrong. Tim got his money. Is the business run better today? the truth is you don't care. You would rather not even take the chance. Next thing you know it will be the government that sent sail/boat covers overseas... r.w.landau
Old Salt got it right.
I couldn't agree more with Old Salt's response. In view of the overwhelming amount of evidence presented by Tim, I've got to wonder if r.w. is just having a little fun at our expense. He can't be serious. And I would't worry about a claim for defamation. Truth is an absolute defense.
I couldn't agree more with Old Salt's response. In view of the overwhelming amount of evidence presented by Tim, I've got to wonder if r.w. is just having a little fun at our expense. He can't be serious. And I would't worry about a claim for defamation. Truth is an absolute defense.
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