I'm doing some upgrades on my 1982 Tartan 33R and decided to draw out an electrical schematic to work from. It's a work in progress at this point and far from complete. I'd like to hear any comments or suggestions, especially as related to the battery switch (Blue Sea 5511e), DC/DC charger (hope to upgrade house battery to LiFePO4), and AC/DC charger. This is just an electrical schematic to illustrate the electrical connections between devices, not a depiction of how the wires are physically routed.
Tartan 33R Wiring Diagram
- Thread starter Schwarz633
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Upload this to the Tartan user mods so it doesn't get lost among thousands of posts. Are you based out of Chicago? There was a Tartan that the owner described as a modern cruising version of the T10. He said only a handful were ever produced. It was rafted up to me at the yard in May
I think you are talking about the LS-10. The hull mold was made by sacrificing a T10 hull. There is a pretty big group of T10 sailers on the Lakes who love their boats but they are growing old. Many have been repaired and re-repaired. A friend had the LS-10 on LI's East End. He did pretty well racing it. I slept on it one night. I wouldn't really call it a cruising boat.
I think the run ended when the planing hulls came out. Or maybe it was the asymmetric spinnaker. The Tartan Class prolly wouldn't allow that.
I don't remember the name of the guy behind it. And I wonder how the Great Lake fleet is doing.
Lots to unpack here.
The most essential feature of an electrical system on a boat is the monitoring system, i.e., what the chargers are doing, what the draw on the batteries, and battery State of Charge (SOC). Staying with one company's ecosystem for the major components, inverter/chargers, solar controllers, and battery monitors makes life much easier when installing and using. It also insures that the devices will work together as planned. Mixing and matching from different companies can have unintended consequences and make the system more difficult to manage and trouble shoot. How important is this? In the USCG's regulations for electrical installations there are numerous safety requirements and required testing of the system, unless they are all from the same manufacturer and then the USCG will take the company's word.
Victron's system is becoming the default standard. So you would be wise to future proof your installation by picking and using only Victron equipment.
On to the schematic.
Each battery bank, start and house, needs to have its own switch so the bank can be isolated. This is especially important with a LiFePO4 system as LFP and LA batteries should not be mixed. A simple On/Off battery switch will work. Blue Sea makes them and BEP makes them as well as others. I like the BEP switches because they can be easily surface mounted which makes installation much easier and neater (btw, Blue Sea and BEP are both owned by Brunswick Corp).
A better choice for the selector switch is the Blue Sea CP+ (p/n 6011). This switch will connect both the start and house banks and allow for emergency paralleling. What it prevents is accidentally leaving the wrong battery connected to the system which can easily happen with a 1-2-Both switch. This article on MarineHowTo.com discusses the issues with the 1-2-Both switch. While you're on the website, take a look at @Maine Sail's other articles, some of the best on the web.
There are articles on @Maine Sail's site about a simple LFP installation. Earlier this year Victron introduced a new DC-DC charger that is heads and tails above the Orion series. It is more efficient, runs cooler, and outputs a higher current. Depending on how you wire the alternator to battery banks, it may be a better choice than an Orion charger.
Your choice of charger should have ample power (amps) and appropriate charging profiles for the batteries you intend to use now and in the future. A Victron charger or inverter/charger is probably a better choice than a NOCO charger, especially if upgrading to LFP.
I'm not going near your engine panel/ wiring harness schematic. I have enough trouble with my own.
Keep in touch with your project, I'm sure you'll have many more questions. Oh, and be careful on the web, there is lots of very good and reliable information and then there is the rest, sounds great, but isn't.
All good points, but as I stated in my post, the battery switch is a Blue Sea 5511e, which is functionally identical to the 6011, just a different form factor. I tried my best to illustrate the operation of the switch in my drawing. The drawing does identify the DC/DC charger as a Victron Orion XS, which I believe to be the improved version recently released. The previous version was an Orion Tr Smart. The NOCO charger has a mode selection for each bank that includes LiFePO4. I will however, look in the Victron AC/DC charger offerings.
As far as the USCG, I just don't see a scenario where they would be inspecting and certifying the electrical system on my 43 year old recreational boat.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,076
I see you have the tools to draw electrical diagrams. Pretty cool.
Several thoughts. I have found MaineSails threads here on the forum and his website to be very clarifying in my search to develop a safe and functional electrical system. In reviewing your diagram there were several areas of confusion. This is likely me. You might be able to clarify.
Several thoughts. I have found MaineSails threads here on the forum and his website to be very clarifying in my search to develop a safe and functional electrical system. In reviewing your diagram there were several areas of confusion. This is likely me. You might be able to clarify.
- It looks like your start battery positive is always connected to the generator. You would need to use the switch to connect the house battery.
- Why the DC to DC Charger? Is this in anticipation of the Lithium batteries? The DC-DC charger is a Charge Management Device. It is used to deal with dissimilar DC Storage systems needing different charging parameters i.e. battery chemistries, Different DC bank voltages connected. If you are using common chemistry and voltage, then an ACR would be more efficient.
- 1/2/BOTH Battery Switch Considerations There are several design thoughts about the switch. There are some issues to consider.
- An Alternator disconnect is often on the Alt Output line. Balmar MC-614 Alternator Service Disconnect Switch - Marine How To It protects the tech (this could be you) from accidentally grounding the Alt output that is connected to the Battery Pos.
I think you are correct. It was a pretty sweet boat
It's alive and well. I see the Chicago fleet racing every week. The boats are in all different conditions
Yes, different form factor, i.e., larger and carries a slightly higher amperage. I didn't go through the whole Blue Sea catalog to note the small difference.
Even with the schematic blown up, my aging sun and wind bruised eyes had a little difficulty reading the fine print. I was able to pick out the Orion and DC-DC part.
It is not enough to have the settings, as not all LFP batteries have the same charging requirements. The chargers with "Lithium settings" use a generic best guess settings which may or may not match the battery you choose. Additionally, the 20 amp charger will not charge a 100ah LFP battery significantly faster than it will charge a 100 ah AGM. Faster charging is one of the benefits of LFP batteries which you will be foregoing.
The point is not that the CG will inspect your boat (unless you want to place it in commercial service carrying more than 6 paying passengers) rather, this standard represents the most conservative and safest standard for the installation of a lithium battery bank. The CG is concerned that with multiple manufacturers the components may not work together and thus create an unsafe situation. On a more practical level with multiple vendors providing pieces of the system, if something isn't working they will blame the other guy. If you want to be an alpha tester for a system of your own design, then that's your perogative.
On closer examination, I think you will see that the alternator output does go through a battery switch contact prior to connecting to the battery.I see you have the tools to draw electrical diagrams. Pretty cool.
Several thoughts. I have found MaineSails threads here on the forum and his website to be very clarifying in my search to develop a safe and functional electrical system. In reviewing your diagram there were several areas of confusion. This is likely me. You might be able to clarify.
This is a quick look at the diagram.
- It looks like your start battery positive is always connected to the generator. You would need to use the switch to connect the house battery.
- Why the DC to DC Charger? Is this in anticipation of the Lithium batteries? The DC-DC charger is a Charge Management Device. It is used to deal with dissimilar DC Storage systems needing different charging parameters i.e. battery chemistries, Different DC bank voltages connected. If you are using common chemistry and voltage, then an ACR would be more efficient.
- 1/2/BOTH Battery Switch Considerations There are several design thoughts about the switch. There are some issues to consider.
- An Alternator disconnect is often on the Alt Output line. Balmar MC-614 Alternator Service Disconnect Switch - Marine How To It protects the tech (this could be you) from accidentally grounding the Alt output that is connected to the Battery Pos.
Yes, I am anticipating upgrading the house battery to a LiFePO4.
The battery switch is a Blue Seas 5511e, which is a dual circuit Off/On switch with a 3rd "emergency" position for combining the two batteries. I have added a switch in the alternator enable circuit that would be opened if ever using the combine position on the battery switch. This would prevent the alternator from trying to charge the house battery (LiFePO4).
I come from the industrial controls world, so my drawing style may not be as understandable to everyone as I might assume. I am showing three contacts for the battery switch, with the X's & O's representing the switch position that that contact will be closed in. For instance OXX would indicate that contact will be closed in the On and Combine positions. OOX would indicate closed in the Combine position only.
Any lines that cross and have a dot represent a connection, a small gap represents no connection. I try hard to minimize the lines crossing on the drawing, but a small amount is unavoidable.
If you shut down the alternator, you will lose the ability to charge the start battery, which in this scenario is also the emergency-reserve battery. Better to add a switch between the battery and the DC+ Bus. This allows complete isolation of the battery and allows the start battery to run all systems while being charged by the alternator or any other charging source.
The common practice in recreational boats is to put the switch after the battery fuse. In commercial applications the switch goes before the fuse so the fuse holder can be depowered for replacing or inspecting the fuse. With the switch after the fuse installing the fuse can cause a rather substantial spark.
Now that I think of it, the Orion XS has a remote input that by default has a jumper across the L & H terminals. I believe that replacing the jumper with a switch will disable the unit when that switch contact is opened. Except that when the battery switch is in the combine position the alternator will then be charging both batteries. I'll have to give this some more thought.
1) The dual circuit plus switch has been discussed here often, enough so to have warranted Maine Sail writing on the subject. The conclusions we have reached are that the DCP switch requires a much more detailed understanding of how it works compared to a simple 1-2-B switch. You can read all about it here in these links:
How to properly wire & switch a DCP switch - Maine Sail's "workaround" explained Replies #28 & 29
What size fuse for automatic charging relay?
Maine Sail's DCP Wiring Diagram
Operating the House/Start battery selector
AGM Battery Issues and the Blue Seas Dual Circuit Switch (from Maine Sail) "DARN AGM Batteries"
Darn AGM Batteries
2) Ladder diagrams are among the hardest for non-engineers to understand. I am an electrical engineer, and I dislike them, especially for boating systems. They're great for electronics, but fairly difficult to "manage" even for house wiring to say nothing about boats. Your difficulty with properly representing the DCP and the two battery banks kinda indicates and reinforces this concern. Another example is showing two tachometers, one of which shows no ground. The links above show the more common wiring diagrams that simplify things about how components are wired; in addition to the wiring diagram methodology, they point out the need for EVEN MORE SWITCHES with that DCP.
Good luck, nice work.
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I haven't had the time to review the links posted by Stu Jackson yet, but I woke up this morning with a new idea and here's the drawing that resulted from that. Let me know what you think. These Blue Sea 6008 switches are 1/OFF/2 with no both position. FYI, I am eliminating the engine key switch on the boat and relying on turning the engine battery switch to off for security when unattended in the slip. I plan on refrigerating the icebox, so I decided that the house battery switch will be left on while in the slip.
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A couple of quick comments.
First, for DC systems at this stage of the design it is acceptable to do a "single wire" diagram showing only the DC+ circuits. For things like the battery just show the ground symbol. Doing this will clean up the drawing and make it more readable. I've attached an example of one I'm involved with. Note this is for a commercial USCG inspected vessel so there are multiple subsystems, not shown here.
If you rely on the start/reserve battery on/off switch to power the sensors and instruments instead of the key switch, from the time the switch is turned on to when the engine is started you will listen to the screaming alarm. That may not bother you, it would bug the hell out of me and my wife would never tolerate it.
I think using the 6008 switch for the engine and house bank complicates the system, better to have a simple on/off switch that feeds a single DCP switch (which ever flavor). It is much less confusing, the batteries are either on or off and the DCP will connect both to their respective circuits or parallel them, fewer permutations of switch positions and more intuitive.
Use a single charging/load bus. All charging sources and loads go to one bus. Also attached is a very simple schematic of my battery system. It works quite well and is simple.
Speaking of simple, it is acceptable and perhaps preferable to have separate drawings for the sub systems, such as the engine instruments and sensors, another for lighting, another for navigation and communications. Just have a box on the master drawing indicating there is a subsystem drawing with more detail.
First, for DC systems at this stage of the design it is acceptable to do a "single wire" diagram showing only the DC+ circuits. For things like the battery just show the ground symbol. Doing this will clean up the drawing and make it more readable. I've attached an example of one I'm involved with. Note this is for a commercial USCG inspected vessel so there are multiple subsystems, not shown here.
If you rely on the start/reserve battery on/off switch to power the sensors and instruments instead of the key switch, from the time the switch is turned on to when the engine is started you will listen to the screaming alarm. That may not bother you, it would bug the hell out of me and my wife would never tolerate it.
I think using the 6008 switch for the engine and house bank complicates the system, better to have a simple on/off switch that feeds a single DCP switch (which ever flavor). It is much less confusing, the batteries are either on or off and the DCP will connect both to their respective circuits or parallel them, fewer permutations of switch positions and more intuitive.
Use a single charging/load bus. All charging sources and loads go to one bus. Also attached is a very simple schematic of my battery system. It works quite well and is simple.
Speaking of simple, it is acceptable and perhaps preferable to have separate drawings for the sub systems, such as the engine instruments and sensors, another for lighting, another for navigation and communications. Just have a box on the master drawing indicating there is a subsystem drawing with more detail.
I'm not sure what you're referring to, there is an engine master off/on switch and engine start pushbutton in the engine control panel.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,076
Looking at the connections, It appears that the switch on the control panel is an ON or OFF switch. While "ON" power to the control panel is good. That does not work for the starter. When the control panel is ON, the power to the starter motor solenoid needs to be intermittent. On = power to the starter. Once the engine is running the power to the Starter solenoid is set to OFF. Other wise the starter motor would burn up.
Understood. While you're thinking about those, here are some more Basic 101 links about boat electrical systems, to help you avoid reinventing the wheel.
OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History Alternator/Batteries & "The Basic" 1-2-B Switch BEST Wiring Diagrams
1-2-B Considerations (New 2020 - Rod finally got around to diagramming what I had done in the above link in 2009
)1/2/BOTH Switch Considerations
Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams This is a very good basic primer for boat system wiring: Basic Battery Wiring Diagrams
This is another very good basic primer for boat system wiring: The 1-2-B Switch by Maine Sail (brings together a lot of what this subject is all about)
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615
This is a newer primer for boat system wiring design with a thorough diagram: Building a Good Foundation (October 2016)
Building a DC Electrical Foundation
