Surveyors and New Regulations

[Maine Sail]

Now, I suppose an organization has to fund itself, but it does little to help the individual boatowner to be held to a standard which they cannot access. The standards are focused on new construction, but applied by surveyors to existing vessels (apparently).

They are not holding used boats to 100% ABYC standards, heck not even 50% in many cases, or NO boats would ever get sold. They are only holding you to potential safety hazards. Unfortunately the only real accepted standards we have for recreational boats are the ABYC so they recommend bringing unsafe items up to current standards.

My boat is not yet 100% ABYC compliant and I doubt it ever will be at 100%. I have yet to see more than a few that were 100%, but I do always bring known safety items up to current safety standards. My boat will be getting an ELCI this winter when I finish the AC wiring that I did not get to finish last winter.

 

[Rick D]

They are not holding used boats to 100% ABYC standards, heck not even 50% in many cases, or NO boats would ever get sold. They are only holding you to potential safety hazards. Unfortunately the only real accepted standards we have for recreational boats are the ABYC so they recommend bringing unsafe items up to current standards.

OK, I am going to let this go, but first, my take away is: ABYC is the only common source of standards by which a surveyor may measure a vessel's compliance, but a surveyor will only hold me to 'safety hazards', which is purely judgmental, so I am still being held to a subjective standard sometimes formulated on a set of other standards of which I cannot obtain a copy. Is that about right? I suppose an imperfect system is better than none at all.

BTW, MS, don't you have a concern about the ELCI false tripping and shutting off your shore power as I raised earlier? Or are you on a mooring and therefore don't have that as an issue?

 

[Old Skool Neil]

So, Rick, Mainesail, et al, aside from published standards, how about a surveyor who's lazy, plain wrong, having a bad day, in a hurry or whatever else? They're out there and I'm sure many of us have had the displeasure.

The surveyor (recommended by the broker) who did my boat when I bought her was a moron, at least he was that particular day. There were numerous things he squawked that were plain wrong and they gave me fits with the insurer. I don't object to a thorough survey but this approached dark comedy.

Rick, he's local. If you're interested I can PM you his name so you or those you know can avoid similar grief.

 

[Ross]

This may be a good place to discuss the manner by which safety standards are derived. A hundred years ago boats didn't have engines much and not much in the way of electrics. Nav lighting was by oil lanterns. Cooking stoves were solid fuel with a smoke stack. Men who sailed boats also often built them and used them to make a living. They knew where every nail and piece of wood was, drilled the holes and installed the through hulls and set the rig. Larger boats were owned by men who had worked their way up the food chain and could afford to hire men to build and crew their boats, still most were work boats. Safety was the constant concern of the captain and the crew because getting hurt meant you couldn't work and didn't get paid. It was on this foundation that men of some wealth bought boats for pleasure and depended on others to make them safe. At the same time the electric grid was being developed and men were getting killed or injured working on domestic power transmission. Houses were burning from electrical faults. Gradually people came to realize that some methods were safe and prevented loss. Word passed from group to group and certain practice was accepted as safer. This has been the method of improvement ever since. I worked in a Row House in Baltimore that had originally been wired for 30 amp service. Both sides of the service were fused. There was no common ground. There was a single light in each room and one duplex outlet in each room. None of the outlets was polarized. The wiring method was open pair, post and tube insulators and all exposed on the ceilings. Connections were twisted and soldered and taped with rubber tape and then friction tape.

 

[Rick D]

Yea, Old Skool Neil, like I had to replace all the exhaust hose because it didn't say 'USCG Approved' on it, and that's just one example. (Edit to add: it was the same hose, just marked differently) No need to have the name of your particular demon surveyor; I'm not selling anytime soon (that I know of). When I do, I'll be sure to get recommendations here, since there isn't a clearing house that I know of other than the two organizations and that doesn't go to actual experiences like yours.

 

[Ross]

Rick D, I have always wondered why I must have high temp hose for my exhaust when I have a PVC water lift muffler.

 

[kenn]

FastOlson's post got me doing a search for ABYC standards to look through to see what level of compliance my boat is currently in, especially since I don't know what's grandfathered or not. Annoyingly, I find that you have to be a member of ABYC to obtain their standards.

Well, in fairness, most non-government standards organizations are like that.

Most good marine stores with a knowledgeable electrics staff-member will give you specific advice. And you have access to the invaluable standards knowledge of Mainesail, Stu, sailingdog and others here, so you're not completely in the dark.

I've just laid out for an ABYC membership, and tomorrow I start the EL400 Electrical certification course, so in about a week's time I can answer standards-related questions too. I hope.