Surveyors and New Regulations

[Rick D]

Let me first start by apologizing since I'm sick and have a head full of cotton. While I was reading some of the sailing mags (in bed), It occurred to me that there have been a lot of changes in electrical and other 'recommendations' since my boat was built in 1994. Galvanic isolators are one.

My curiosity is that I wonder what a surveyor would do with a boat that was compliant when it was built but is not now? This is more that a passing interest since I spent a lot of money and effort on another boat making it 'complaint' even though, first, it was fine by the past standard and, second, there was nothing wrong with it as it was.

I am paranoid about home inspectors, termite inspectors and boat surveyors. Simply put, they can 'poison' a deal; not only the current one but also future ones and create civil liability for you. For example, if as is standard in California, I have a termite inspection and the report says I have dry rot, I have a big problem. There is no way another inspector will take issue with him, the fact that it was outside of the scope of inspection is irrelevant and I must disclose that to future buyers, or bear the liability for not doing so. This happens all the time.

So, maybe I'm just paranoid and it isn't a problem on boats. I wonder how you might protect yourself? Curious what your experience has been.

BTW, Maine Sail, if you read this, I saw an ad in a largely powerboat mag which described a new shorepower connector that was describes as making it easier to comply with a new regulation having to do with 'equipment leakage'. I tossed the article (it was in Sea magazine). Any idea what that is?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Rick, hope you're feeling better. Good day to watch a ballgame, base or foot, your choice!

Shorepower could be this: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/electrical-systems/69294-shorepower-help.html

Don't know about the surveyor thing, 'cuz there's only ONE guy I would use if I ever sold my boat: the guy who did the survey for me when I bought it.

As far as the "grandfather" thing about bringing older boats or houses up to current codes: for buildings it's not required beyond what it was originally designed for unless changes are made which require newer code implementation for the areas that are being changed, not the whole building.

I'm sure some surveyors for boats would go overboard. (PNI)

It will be interesting to hear more from others, and some who may have personal experience or at the business end of it.

Stu

 

[Maine Sail]

You are thinking of an ELCI or Equipment Leakage Circuit Interrupter. As of July 31, 2010 new boat builders, building to ABYC, will be required to have them installed on new boats. This was supposed to begin being enforced in July 2009 for new builders but the industry could not produce the product to meet the standards in time. They are designed to trip on ground leakage at voltages as low as 30mA (0.030). These devices can REALLY help clean up marinas of stray current and damage to underwater metals but also can help save lives of swimmers. I strongly suspect we will eventually begin to see marinas mandating these for members if you want to keep your slip etc..

You are grandfathered on most everything UNLESS it is a USCG or federal requirement or an item deemed UNSAFE by a surveyor and your insurance company mandates an upgrade. Things that I have seen nicked in terms of electrical would be wire nuts, unsafe battery charger installations, solid copper wire, soldered but not also crimped connections, shore power circuits that are using home extension cords, GFCI's, lack of circuit protection etc.etc.. Unless the surveyor feels the items could be potentially dangerous usually they will not flag them as unsafe or "recommended" but may put them in a "comments" section instead.

 

[Ross]

Mainesail, What is the objection with GFCI devises?

 

[Maine Sail]

Mainesail, What is the objection with GFCI devises?

None. This is for the shore power to monitor voltage leaking to the ground and ensures the entire AC system is covered to 30mA not just one circuit. You still need GFCI outlets but the main AC line will now have an ELCI within 10' of the shore power inlet. GFCI's do not monitor low voltage leaks at the level an ELCI does for the entire system..

ABYC regulation E–13.3.5 states:
If installed in a head, galley, machinery space, or on a weather deck, the receptacle shall be protected by a Type A (nominal 5 milliamperes) Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI).

ABYC regulation E–11.11.1 states:
An Equipment Leakage Circuit Interrupter (ELCI) shall be installed with or in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker(s) or at the additional overcurrent protection as required by E–11.10.2.8.3 whichever is closer to the shore power connection.

 

[Ross]

It is my understanding that The GFCI trips when the current on the "HOT" wire does not match the current on the "Neutral" wire. Because the difference is going where it ought not. Like the guy holding the power tool. It is supposed to trip before you "feel" a shock. Is the ELCI designed to function in the same manner?

 

[Maine Sail]

It is my understanding that The GFCI trips when the current on the "HOT" wire does not match the current on the "Neutral" wire. Because the difference is going where it ought not. Like the guy holding the power tool. It is supposed to trip before you "feel" a shock. Is the ELCI designed to function in the same manner?

GFCI's trip on 5mA which is a very low voltage differential and ELCI's trip on 30mA but this is for the entire AC system not just one circuit. The ELCI works in the same manner but also serves as a main breaker. In the marine world main breakers are designed to break both the neutral and hot at the same time when it trips not just the hot.

 

[Ross]

Thank you. I have installed panel GFCI breakers that function both as over current protection and ground fault protection but these are single pole.. The GFCI outlets only provide ground fault protection.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

GFCI breakers are readily available in 2 pole configuration, commonly used in spa circuits. Note also that GFCI's trip if there's continuity on the load side between neutral and ground regardless of current flow.

 

[Ross]

Now if they could make a propane shut-off that would monitor the burners and the gas consumption and shut down if more gas was flowing than was burning in the appliance. Very tricky to design and probably expensive. Maybe just build to proven safety standards.

 

[Rick D]

So how reliable are these and how much real-world testing has gone into it? I would hate to come back after a couple of weeks to find my batteries dead and freezer defrosted.

 

[Ross]

They are designed to trip and false positives are not infrequent. A 30 milliamp leak is not large but it could kill a swimmer. With a GFCI simply plugging in a hairdrier with wet hands can trip it even if you never feel a shock.

 

[tommays]

On my 1970 Cal 29 the survey would not do the cockpit floor fuel fill as built and i had to move it and while its much better because it will keep water out of the tank

It cost a s**t load of money just in material and if i had to pay somebody it could have cost thousands

 

[Ross]

Nobody ever said that keeping a boat was cheap. Larry Pardey's boat has no engine and no electric system. He has a Gas fueled galley stove. He may have a solar panel to charge the batteries for his computer and CD player and radio.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

They are designed to trip and false positives are not infrequent.

Known in the electrical trade as nuisance trips. Damn things will trip in a fog. We explain it away to the clients as "failing to a safe condition."

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Larry Pardey's boat has no engine and no electric system. He has a Gas fueled galley stove. He may have a solar panel to charge the batteries for his computer and CD player and radio.

I followed Pardey's writing early on and his mantra was "you shouldn't have anything on board that you cannot repair yourself." His application of the mantra was to do without rather than learn the systems and carry the spares. I never faulted his approach but departed from it when I realized he and Lin dooked in a bucket (the bucket and chuck-it system).

 

[Rick D]

Well, there is something to be said for simple systems. Witness Jessica Watson's 34' vs. Abby Sunderland's 40. Jessica didn't even have a water maker and the stove was alcohol. Having said that, adherence to the Pardey Principal would keep most people off the water, or at least confined to daysailing.

Maine Sail mentions that a Surveyor should put what he or she considers needed but not crucial items in 'Recommendations'. That's little comfort. Show me an insurer or buyer who doesn't insist on compliance on those very 'recommendations'. The retort will, of course, be 'to give proper value to the customer and to avoid liability to the surveyor, the surveyor must make note of standards and customs which have evolved since the boat was splashed'. The effect is, however, the same. At the end of the day, all parties to the deal may admit to the issue but declare it just isn't their problem. Same deal as to home inspectors et al.

Enough of that irritation. I'm probably just grumpy because I'm sick. BTW, I just finished Watson's 'True Spirit'. It's an easy read and reflects both the excitement and boredom of that seven month voyage pretty well. It helped to get behind her blog and see what was going on. If you followed her blog all the way through, it wouldn't be a must-read but if not, it is entertaining. It was a challenge as an older guy to see things through the eyes of a (very driven) 16 year-old female, much less one born in the 90's. Certainly, her generation will never be satisfied without full electronic communication access anywhere anytime. Another thing the book points out is how deep her personal preparation and focus was. She told her parents her goal to sail around the world when she was 11 years old, and her life pretty much revolved around that from then on.

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine Sail mentions that a Surveyor should put what he or she considers needed but not crucial items in 'Recommendations'. That's little comfort. Show me an insurer or buyer who doesn't insist on compliance on those very 'recommendations'.

Rick,

Sorry I misspoke. What I meant to type was that I would rather see it in a "comments" section. The recommendations section is what insurers usually want to see compliance with.

 

[FastOlson]

Speaking of Shorepower

Stu will love the irony of one of my prouder upgrade projects being based on then-current practice at Catalina Yachts...

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=3509&referrerid=28

Further irony is that this '06 project result may well be surpassed again by a change in ABYC standards, and I probably would be equally clueless.
:zzz:

BTW, the comment about what surveyors write in their report is spot on. Once something appears in writing that might ever-so-slightly raise the odds of the insurance company having to ever pay a claim, they want the "problem" fixed forthwith.

OTOH, they always seem to cough up for a new furler and a sail for some laggard that leaves the sail loosely furled during a 35 kt January storm here, after multiple warnings to all moorage tenants to remove head sails. Speaking as a long-time premium payer with no claims, this irks me a wee bit.
Mutter, mutter, grumble, whine whine......
L

 

[Rick D]

Re: Speaking of Shorepower

FastOlson's post got me doing a search for ABYC standards to look through to see what level of compliance my boat is currently in, especially since I don't know what's grandfathered or not. Annoyingly, I find that you have to be a member of ABYC to obtain their standards. Now, I suppose an organization has to fund itself, but it does little to help the individual boatowner to be held to a standard which they cannot access. The standards are focused on new construction, but applied by surveyors to existing vessels (apparently). This seems wrong on several levels, but I'm probably just grumpy and focused on something I won't have to deal with for some time.