Last summer I sailed solo from overnight stay at a port. Open sea. At6 AM after confirming weather etc. set out for 30 NM trip to home port. Four miles out started to rain and preped for foul weather then all heck broke loose. High high winds, blinding rain and soon 5-6 foot waves. Immediately took down sails. Wind was coming from previous port but since I was closer opted to turn into storm and eventually made it back to port via Atomic 4. An experience I hope to never have to do again. Was I correct in heading into the storm or should I have motored with wind on the stern for the longer part of trip is the question I have for more seasoned sailors.. 25 foot Northstar500
Sudden summer thunder storm... go or turn
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Scotian, if you motor into a storm,
You were shorting the duration of it's nastyness. If you flow with it you can prolong it's effects. However, as you head into a storm, you take the full brunt of it and with headway you accent it. If you ride with it, it would feel less intense but also prolong it. I think you made the right choice in your situation. In a different storm you may chose your other options. Sailing/boating in severe weather requires on the spot choices. I think you made a good choice. Yes, it was probably rougher than the other choices but you are asking, so it didn't turn out all bad. You could have chosen to run with it and extended your time involved by hours and possibly risked a Pooping(a large wave breaking over the stern). No, I did not give any solid advice. Conditions should make the decisions. You just have to know the alternatives. r.w.landau
You were shorting the duration of it's nastyness. If you flow with it you can prolong it's effects. However, as you head into a storm, you take the full brunt of it and with headway you accent it. If you ride with it, it would feel less intense but also prolong it. I think you made the right choice in your situation. In a different storm you may chose your other options. Sailing/boating in severe weather requires on the spot choices. I think you made a good choice. Yes, it was probably rougher than the other choices but you are asking, so it didn't turn out all bad. You could have chosen to run with it and extended your time involved by hours and possibly risked a Pooping(a large wave breaking over the stern). No, I did not give any solid advice. Conditions should make the decisions. You just have to know the alternatives. r.w.landau
all depends
Scotian: 6' waves shouldn't be a problem with your boat. If you were going too fast with bare poles and you didn't have a drogue, then yeah, turn into the wind and head for shore, but if not, 6' waves isn't going to sink the boat. But if your happier with turning around and being back in port in an hour verses a 4-6 hour ride in the existing conditions, then you made the right decision. I would have kept on going because I'm stuborn and daring...unless I had a crew who was uncomfortable and reaching our destination ontime wasn't critical.
Scotian: 6' waves shouldn't be a problem with your boat. If you were going too fast with bare poles and you didn't have a drogue, then yeah, turn into the wind and head for shore, but if not, 6' waves isn't going to sink the boat. But if your happier with turning around and being back in port in an hour verses a 4-6 hour ride in the existing conditions, then you made the right decision. I would have kept on going because I'm stuborn and daring...unless I had a crew who was uncomfortable and reaching our destination ontime wasn't critical.
Storm captain
This is a classic judgment call, only able to be made by the captain on the scene. There were a lot of factors that could have influenced you that we don't know, including who was aboard, their condition and fear, how tired you were, whether you felt any of the boat systems were not 100%, and whether you had reason to believe you were in the worst of the weather or it might deteriorate. When it happens it scares the bejesus out of you, but when you come through, whether by turning back or pressing on, you should feel great accomplishment and much more confidence for next time.
This is a classic judgment call, only able to be made by the captain on the scene. There were a lot of factors that could have influenced you that we don't know, including who was aboard, their condition and fear, how tired you were, whether you felt any of the boat systems were not 100%, and whether you had reason to believe you were in the worst of the weather or it might deteriorate. When it happens it scares the bejesus out of you, but when you come through, whether by turning back or pressing on, you should feel great accomplishment and much more confidence for next time.
Sorry Ted, I disagree
That is why Scotian posted. It does not give you more confidence , the situation makes you want to know what is the better choice. Serious situations cause us to seek better solutions. Pride will never overcome a situation that wisdom should have dominated. r.w.landau
That is why Scotian posted. It does not give you more confidence , the situation makes you want to know what is the better choice. Serious situations cause us to seek better solutions. Pride will never overcome a situation that wisdom should have dominated. r.w.landau
Meeting challenges
I don't think I disagree with you, R.W. We learn by experience, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand as much as possible in advance and to try to analyze the situation afterwards to see what we could have done better. One of my favorite quotes is attributable to another Pittsburgher, Chuck Tanner, former manager of the Pirates: "Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the exam first and the lesson afterwards." But despite that, we will sometimes be faced with unexpected situations and often faced with judgment calls. When we get through them, as csotian did, in addition to analyzing we also feel better because we did make the right call -- maybe not the only call, maybe not even the very best call , but a call that worked. Moreover, I believe that a major attraction of sailing is the notion that things are not perfectly predictable and that we will sometimes be challenged, and fell like better men or women for meeting the challenge successfully.
I don't think I disagree with you, R.W. We learn by experience, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand as much as possible in advance and to try to analyze the situation afterwards to see what we could have done better. One of my favorite quotes is attributable to another Pittsburgher, Chuck Tanner, former manager of the Pirates: "Experience is a difficult teacher, it gives the exam first and the lesson afterwards." But despite that, we will sometimes be faced with unexpected situations and often faced with judgment calls. When we get through them, as csotian did, in addition to analyzing we also feel better because we did make the right call -- maybe not the only call, maybe not even the very best call , but a call that worked. Moreover, I believe that a major attraction of sailing is the notion that things are not perfectly predictable and that we will sometimes be challenged, and fell like better men or women for meeting the challenge successfully.
Ted , quotes are fun and Scotian made a good
decision. I don't think he was looking for an ataboy, I think he wanted to know more of his options. Lets give him more options. The more options we give him the more choices he has in a bad situation to do what is right for his condition. Remember that he probably concidered this life and death at the time it occured. I think it qualifies for sober, realistic, quality responses. Ted, I am not trying to start an argument, I am trying to be an advocate (though sometimes unwanted) for Scotian. Hopefully he will respond soon. r.w.landau
decision. I don't think he was looking for an ataboy, I think he wanted to know more of his options. Lets give him more options. The more options we give him the more choices he has in a bad situation to do what is right for his condition. Remember that he probably concidered this life and death at the time it occured. I think it qualifies for sober, realistic, quality responses. Ted, I am not trying to start an argument, I am trying to be an advocate (though sometimes unwanted) for Scotian. Hopefully he will respond soon. r.w.landau
Storm captain
Well, we need a lot more detail to make suggestions. All other things being equal, and being in open sea, the tradeoff is between running before the wind, which will produce less apparent wind but more storm time, and fighting against the wind to a nearer port. One key item would be whether there were any possible ports of refuge or additional hazards on my originally planned route. If there were none, and if I were faced with that decision, it would depend in part on the factors I mentioned in my first posting, and on my experience in that boat in similar conditions. But being only a short time out of a port of refuge, with none ahead of me for quite some time, I would probably make the same decision as Scotian. What would you do?
Well, we need a lot more detail to make suggestions. All other things being equal, and being in open sea, the tradeoff is between running before the wind, which will produce less apparent wind but more storm time, and fighting against the wind to a nearer port. One key item would be whether there were any possible ports of refuge or additional hazards on my originally planned route. If there were none, and if I were faced with that decision, it would depend in part on the factors I mentioned in my first posting, and on my experience in that boat in similar conditions. But being only a short time out of a port of refuge, with none ahead of me for quite some time, I would probably make the same decision as Scotian. What would you do?
Read this Article...
Read the article "Taming the Squall" by Bill Biewenga in the August 2005 edition of Offshore Magazine. It has excellent insight. Recommendation: Drop all sails. Determine where it is heading. Motor around it, as best as possible, to avoid it. Next Time: Prepare for the weather by finding out what's happening. This requires homework and finding out what the forecast is. Study the skies. If it doesn't look favorable, stay in port. What you should do, if caught, is to drop all sails, check what/who is around you, start the motor (for stabilizing the boat) and run with it with bare poles. It is going faster than you (since it overtook you), so you can ride it out. But watch out for other boats in the area.
Read the article "Taming the Squall" by Bill Biewenga in the August 2005 edition of Offshore Magazine. It has excellent insight. Recommendation: Drop all sails. Determine where it is heading. Motor around it, as best as possible, to avoid it. Next Time: Prepare for the weather by finding out what's happening. This requires homework and finding out what the forecast is. Study the skies. If it doesn't look favorable, stay in port. What you should do, if caught, is to drop all sails, check what/who is around you, start the motor (for stabilizing the boat) and run with it with bare poles. It is going faster than you (since it overtook you), so you can ride it out. But watch out for other boats in the area.
Heading Back Maybe the wrong thing to do
Not being judgemental especially since I wasn't there. But the worst place to be in a storm is near shore. With the wind blowing you out away from danger staying out would seem safer. If all of the bounceing around stirred up your fuel tank and clogged your filters you would be in a bad way in a storm without sails up and with a dead engine. A local thunderstorm is not likely to produce very large waves and the biggest danger is probably being struck by lightening. If it was a big system you should have known about it before heading out. Ideally if you can determine the storms position and course you can steer to avoid. We have done this many times and the storms produced wind to help us on our way. Local thunderstorms are an unavoidable fact of life here on the gulf coast in the summer. If you stay at the dock everytime a thunderstorm is possible you won't sail often. Our marina office has the weather channel that shows current radar several times an hour. We usually check this before heading out if there is any doubt. NWS on the VHF is great for general weather but doesn't pinpoint storms. With our laptop and cell phone we can get online radar almost anywhere that we have tried along the the coast from Port Saint Joe to Dauphin Island. Tom
Not being judgemental especially since I wasn't there. But the worst place to be in a storm is near shore. With the wind blowing you out away from danger staying out would seem safer. If all of the bounceing around stirred up your fuel tank and clogged your filters you would be in a bad way in a storm without sails up and with a dead engine. A local thunderstorm is not likely to produce very large waves and the biggest danger is probably being struck by lightening. If it was a big system you should have known about it before heading out. Ideally if you can determine the storms position and course you can steer to avoid. We have done this many times and the storms produced wind to help us on our way. Local thunderstorms are an unavoidable fact of life here on the gulf coast in the summer. If you stay at the dock everytime a thunderstorm is possible you won't sail often. Our marina office has the weather channel that shows current radar several times an hour. We usually check this before heading out if there is any doubt. NWS on the VHF is great for general weather but doesn't pinpoint storms. With our laptop and cell phone we can get online radar almost anywhere that we have tried along the the coast from Port Saint Joe to Dauphin Island. Tom
You did good.
Never run downwind on a squall if you can help it. You were 4 miles out with plenty of depth I pressume in your waters and you motored into the wind and waves. By motoring slowly you are basically maintaining position. These squalls are usually shortlived. This is what radar on a boat is for so you can determine the depth of a squall or the best route to take into it. If you run downwind you may go too fast and have a danger of broaching plus you will be longer under the effects of the storm as you will be travelling with it. Next time it won't be as bad.
Never run downwind on a squall if you can help it. You were 4 miles out with plenty of depth I pressume in your waters and you motored into the wind and waves. By motoring slowly you are basically maintaining position. These squalls are usually shortlived. This is what radar on a boat is for so you can determine the depth of a squall or the best route to take into it. If you run downwind you may go too fast and have a danger of broaching plus you will be longer under the effects of the storm as you will be travelling with it. Next time it won't be as bad.
Good question
Though, apparently, there is no diffinitive answer. This is a great topic for disscussion and I'm glad I caught the post. Solo,open sea,6' waves,in a driving rain, in a 25'er, has to concern most anybody.. but maybe Capt'n Dan in Forrest Gump. At least that's the visual I got. Tips on handeling it are appriciated.
Though, apparently, there is no diffinitive answer. This is a great topic for disscussion and I'm glad I caught the post. Solo,open sea,6' waves,in a driving rain, in a 25'er, has to concern most anybody.. but maybe Capt'n Dan in Forrest Gump. At least that's the visual I got. Tips on handeling it are appriciated.
Dropping sail and motoring back
The skipper’s decisions and actions saw his vessel and crew through a very difficult situation. Yet, by his own account the experience was harrowing enough that he never hopes to have to do this again and so he is asking for advice. At first sight, the advice he has been getting so far would appear to make good sense; in situations like this, turning into the wind can indeed be preferable to running off. Then one realizes that one is watching a small sailing vessel beating towards the harbor entrance against strong winds and waves on the auxiliary alone, without the supporting drive and stabilizing effects of any sails..… For sailing vessels with auxiliary engines (as opposed to fully motorized vessels and so-called “motorsailors") the million dollar question under these conditions should not be whether to "go or turn" but whether to take all sails down and start motoring, rather than to shorten sail, heave to, and/or deploy drag devices. This does not mean, of course, that any sailor able to avoid an approaching big thunderstorm or nasty squall by hightailing it back into port should not try to do so. However, once a sailing vessel gets caught in strong winds and waves offshore the rules of the game have changed markedly. Whereas the decision to drop all sails may become unavoidable, to try and approach the harbor entrance in a vicious squall under auxiliary engine alone is usually not the safest nor the most comfortable option. If the auxiliary were to fail -- not an unlikely scenario when trying to power into strong winds and heavy seas -- the outcome can easily become disastrous. When one is a handful of miles offshore and gets caught in a thunderstorm or vicious squall, the time-honored measures of shortening sail, heaving to and/or taking down all sails while deploying drag devices should remain our first line of defense, even in a relatively small vessel. At any rate, once wind and waves have become so strong that one has no other choice but to drop all sail few if any auxiliary engines will be able to push straight into the wind and waves without risk of failure from any number of possible causes. Better to save one’s engine for helping to manoever in imminent collision or grounding situations, etc. Sometimes, it may even make sense to use the engine at 1/2 or 3/4 throttle in order to keep the vessel on station relative to a nearby buoy or GPS waypoint until the squall or thunderstorm blows over. To use the auxiliary full-out to try and best mother nature in this situation is to risk it all, in my humble opinion. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
The skipper’s decisions and actions saw his vessel and crew through a very difficult situation. Yet, by his own account the experience was harrowing enough that he never hopes to have to do this again and so he is asking for advice. At first sight, the advice he has been getting so far would appear to make good sense; in situations like this, turning into the wind can indeed be preferable to running off. Then one realizes that one is watching a small sailing vessel beating towards the harbor entrance against strong winds and waves on the auxiliary alone, without the supporting drive and stabilizing effects of any sails..… For sailing vessels with auxiliary engines (as opposed to fully motorized vessels and so-called “motorsailors") the million dollar question under these conditions should not be whether to "go or turn" but whether to take all sails down and start motoring, rather than to shorten sail, heave to, and/or deploy drag devices. This does not mean, of course, that any sailor able to avoid an approaching big thunderstorm or nasty squall by hightailing it back into port should not try to do so. However, once a sailing vessel gets caught in strong winds and waves offshore the rules of the game have changed markedly. Whereas the decision to drop all sails may become unavoidable, to try and approach the harbor entrance in a vicious squall under auxiliary engine alone is usually not the safest nor the most comfortable option. If the auxiliary were to fail -- not an unlikely scenario when trying to power into strong winds and heavy seas -- the outcome can easily become disastrous. When one is a handful of miles offshore and gets caught in a thunderstorm or vicious squall, the time-honored measures of shortening sail, heaving to and/or taking down all sails while deploying drag devices should remain our first line of defense, even in a relatively small vessel. At any rate, once wind and waves have become so strong that one has no other choice but to drop all sail few if any auxiliary engines will be able to push straight into the wind and waves without risk of failure from any number of possible causes. Better to save one’s engine for helping to manoever in imminent collision or grounding situations, etc. Sometimes, it may even make sense to use the engine at 1/2 or 3/4 throttle in order to keep the vessel on station relative to a nearby buoy or GPS waypoint until the squall or thunderstorm blows over. To use the auxiliary full-out to try and best mother nature in this situation is to risk it all, in my humble opinion. Have fun! Flying Dutchman
speaking of dragging devices
I don't have a drogue yet, will someday, but looking for opinions on the effectiveness of dragging a handful of 5 gallon buckets behind. Everbody should have atleast two on board for bailing and they are cheap. Think they would hold up to the pressure? Think they would just skip along? I gotta test this...maybe this weekend.
I don't have a drogue yet, will someday, but looking for opinions on the effectiveness of dragging a handful of 5 gallon buckets behind. Everbody should have atleast two on board for bailing and they are cheap. Think they would hold up to the pressure? Think they would just skip along? I gotta test this...maybe this weekend.
need more options
My reaction to Scotian's post, before I read the rest of the responses, was wondering about depending on an aux, particulalry as I neared shore, as others have observed. I was thinking hmmmm, Novia Scotia. Probably cold $%^R#@$% water that's going to be continually soaking me while I'm alone with no relief at the helm. No sails up, probably bouncing and wallowing like crazy. On my boat, a C27, I just wouldn't want to try that. Got the rig whipping around and something can break. Scotian, to answer you directly, you asked, do I go back or go on, under power. I think you have to have your boat rigged and your skills practiced enough to have a third choice ... wait it out. Either heaved to or towing something. I'd have tried heaving to, on a tack that kept me offshore. In heavy winds, that probably means having a main that can be triple reefed, and some kind of small/storm headsail. So you heave to, go below and sit it out, or get bundled up, sit in the shelter of the cabin top, wait (relatively) comfortably for it to blow out, than proceed. One other point ... if you really felt you needed to power in, motor sailing with a deeply reefed main on a couple of long tacks might have been a choice with an easier motion. Just my thoughts. I wasn't there, I don't know what the waves looked like, and your choice got you home. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
My reaction to Scotian's post, before I read the rest of the responses, was wondering about depending on an aux, particulalry as I neared shore, as others have observed. I was thinking hmmmm, Novia Scotia. Probably cold $%^R#@$% water that's going to be continually soaking me while I'm alone with no relief at the helm. No sails up, probably bouncing and wallowing like crazy. On my boat, a C27, I just wouldn't want to try that. Got the rig whipping around and something can break. Scotian, to answer you directly, you asked, do I go back or go on, under power. I think you have to have your boat rigged and your skills practiced enough to have a third choice ... wait it out. Either heaved to or towing something. I'd have tried heaving to, on a tack that kept me offshore. In heavy winds, that probably means having a main that can be triple reefed, and some kind of small/storm headsail. So you heave to, go below and sit it out, or get bundled up, sit in the shelter of the cabin top, wait (relatively) comfortably for it to blow out, than proceed. One other point ... if you really felt you needed to power in, motor sailing with a deeply reefed main on a couple of long tacks might have been a choice with an easier motion. Just my thoughts. I wasn't there, I don't know what the waves looked like, and your choice got you home. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
and my favorite
don't forget to try feathering. reef as much as possible and head into the wind as much as possible without going into irons (about 30 degrees). This will give you a slight and steady motion forward of half speed, taking the force of the waves at the bow where the boat is the strongest, while not putting a lot of strain on the rig because the sails are depowered by the sharp angle. This will require you to be at the helm, but it's a steady motion with the least amount of strain on the boat and you can heave-to at anytime needed (of course coming out of the heave-to would be hard until the storm passes). Can't believe I didn't think about telling you this earlier
don't forget to try feathering. reef as much as possible and head into the wind as much as possible without going into irons (about 30 degrees). This will give you a slight and steady motion forward of half speed, taking the force of the waves at the bow where the boat is the strongest, while not putting a lot of strain on the rig because the sails are depowered by the sharp angle. This will require you to be at the helm, but it's a steady motion with the least amount of strain on the boat and you can heave-to at anytime needed (of course coming out of the heave-to would be hard until the storm passes). Can't believe I didn't think about telling you this earlier
buckets for drogues
Franklin, it's been tried-the handles won't take the strain in a storm for more than a few minutes
Franklin, it's been tried-the handles won't take the strain in a storm for more than a few minutes
that's what I was afraid of
the handles breaking. How about an old fashion steal bucket with a homemade rope handle? Drill a hole on each side of the steal bucket and tie a rope around each end. Then I think it's a question of weather the bottom of the steal bucket will hold. If only it would hold, that would be a cheap and productive drag device that could also work as a bailer and boat washing bucket. I can just see though...I'm going along dragging my buckets and then something happenes and I need them to bail water Ok...I'll shut up for now.
the handles breaking. How about an old fashion steal bucket with a homemade rope handle? Drill a hole on each side of the steal bucket and tie a rope around each end. Then I think it's a question of weather the bottom of the steal bucket will hold. If only it would hold, that would be a cheap and productive drag device that could also work as a bailer and boat washing bucket. I can just see though...I'm going along dragging my buckets and then something happenes and I need them to bail water
Ok...I'll shut up for now.- Status