Storm!! When do you go to bare poles?

John Nantz · Dec 6, 2002

Old Mariners Knew About Oil and Water

The old mariners used oil to calm the waves. Pardy I think used oil too. Typically they put oil in a canvas water bag and hung it over the side. A small amount of oil would leak out and calm the white water.Who thinks of preparing a blue water voyage now with a water bag?

henkmeuzelaar · Dec 6, 2002

R.W.L.: why go look for a 12-hour storm??

If you sail between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, i.e. between 23.5 degrees North and South while carefully avoiding the cyclone ("hurricane", "typhoon") season, practically your only chance of encountering gale force winds or worse (i.e. Force 8 and higher) is in a thunderstorm or by being "williwawed" downwind of high mountains. In both situations this would rarely last more than 1 hour. (If anyone does not believe this, just read the pilot chart descriptions for the Pacific or Atlantic. As an example I have posted the NIMA pilot chart wind description for the South Pacific in August under the photo link).So, why do we see lots of cruisers get time and again in heavy gales or worse, e.g. the hapless Queen's Birthday fleet? Simply because they sail into higher latitudes; more often than not because their traditionally built heavy vessel cannot sail to windward in the Tradewind belts. Of course, once you have taken your full-keeled crab crusher to a high enough latitude to finally find the gale/storm you were afraid off all those years you can go below and close the companion hatch after employing the passive tactics that these vessels are especially built for.....Flying Dutchman

henkmeuzelaar · Dec 9, 2002

Tom, are we on the same planet?

For the life of me, I cannot figure out how you can sail from New England to the British Isles below 23.5 N.....Just so we are on the same sheet of music (and perhaps even on the same planet) please consult the pilot charts, check the hurricane season boundaries there and then tell me which North Atlantic areas below 23.5 N do not have Force 9 (and above) winds listed as very rare (when excluding thunderstorms and katabatic winds, as mentioned before).Naturally, even very rare events DO occur, of course. So, I am writing this to you in the assumption that Stamford has NOT just been hit by a tsunami, earthquake or tornado and you are able to retrieve and read your e-mail.Fair winds,Flying Dutchman

John Nantz · Dec 11, 2002

Fast is Kinda Relative

The Cal 40 is a really nice sailing boat and I have a lot of respect, and "fond memories" for the way it handles. In the late '60s I crewed on a Cal 40 out of Saint Francis on San Francisco Bay where afternoon winds are standardly in the low 20s. "Driving" her to weather up Raccoon Strait was a pleasure and she'd take those rolling whitecaps gracefully and without slamming. Trips out the gate and down to Monterey were fun and I always felt secure no matter what the weather was and we had our share. Our boat finished 1st in the fleet of about 40 Cal 40's.Fast? The '40 sailed really well but some of today’s designs will give her a run for the money. It was a Pacific Cup race, San Francisco to Hawaii, over 2000 nm, where a Cal 40 with the acknowledged top tactician in the entire fleet raced against a new Hunter 35.5 with a no-name crew and the Hunter won. And the guy on the '40 bought the boat and tweaked it out just for that one race! I remember one comment the '40 skipper said, at one point they had the spinnaker up but it was so rough they couldn't take it down.This was around '90 or '91 and there were some really rough conditions they had to sail through - not your everyday sleigh ride. If I race my H-35 ('88), and I haven't much, it's put in the same group with the Cal 40's for PHRF purposes, an indicator we're about even for speed and this is supported by the races I've been in. If I went to sea which would I prefer for safety? the '40 for sure, and they have a good sea motion. Stack the Cal 40 up against a H-43 and it's no contest, the 43 will literally run away from it. Any builder that shortens insulation around the icebox or won't seal a through-deck penetration to prevent water intrusion into the balsa core deck you have to wonder about where else they short-changed the design. Rudder shaft? I wonder about these things. Some people worry about shaft seals, I worry about things like rudders and lightning; to each his own.Especially with answers like "yea, so it [leaks][doesn't keep stuff cold][enter your problem], it's a PRODUCTION boat". Implying one needs to expect a few "flaws", I guess. I wonder what else is flawed? As you can tell I have a fairly low level of "trust" in today’s "production" boats. With regard to unexpected weather, it does happen. For example, it's been told the best sailing in the Northwest is in August. Blue skies and kinder winds. Well, we were sailing around Vancouver Island in '91 and for several days the weather people were saying there is a strong system approaching but it never came. The skies were blue and day after day of good weather and finally we decided to leave anyway; the forecasters don't have a really good reputation for this area. A couple days later the storm hit and it was a whopper. After a brief lull of a few hours the real storm hit. Solandar Island weather station blew away at 103 knots! This wasn't a summer squall, this was a couple day storm! Actually, a hurricane and this was around August 6th to the 8th.Fortunately we were able to tuck into a good harbor about 30 miles away but others were less fortunate. A trimaran was lost for a couple weeks and found upside down. The crew survived on canned cat food!This is one of the scary parts about cruising, that conditions can become significantly worse than forecasted.

henkmeuzelaar · Dec 11, 2002

David, more details about the 3 storms, please

I have been out of state for a few days and already wanted to ask you to provide some more details about the time, place, severity and duration of the "tropical" storms described in the new edition of Heavy Weather Sailing. I would like to buy it myself one day but have already spent my Xmas budget for books, and then some :0(Fair winds,Henk Meuzelaar"Rivendel II"PSAre you a scuba diver? If so, have you already been diving on the "David Foster"? If she lies not too deep it should be a great thrill to dive on a vessel bearing your name! HM

henkmeuzelaar · Dec 11, 2002

Tom, agree with your rant against N Atlantic Xing

While one can certainly cross the N Atlantic with Benehuntelina-like vessels, as countless examples show, one can alas never exclude severe weather in the Variables (as the name indicates). One more example of that is the bad West coast weather situation cited by John Nantz. In principle, however, even the North Atlantic can be crossed within the Tradewind belt (e.g. via de Cape Verde islands and the Caribbeans, though. Almost nobody will consider that route because (a) to and from higher latitude ports it is quite a detour; (b) the hurricane season tends to be long and fierce; and (c) the US to Africa leg would have to be sailed AGAINST the Trades (which is unconceivable to nearly all traditional-thinking sailors). Now get out the globe and look how one can get from a US coastal location on the East or West coast to the tropical bluewater cruising grounds below 23.5 degrees North. Right! Just follow the coast until you get far enough South. Between Florida and Cuba you have to cross a bit of open water, etc. However, that can always be done in an overnighter and within the weather forecast windows (OUTSIDE the hurricane season, of course).Now, it so happens that I have personally found coastal sailing along the US coasts to be more risky and demanding than a longer passage within the tropics (i.e. between 23.5 N and 23.5 S). Some people on this board appear to feel safe along the coast because there is usually a harbor not too far away if the s@@t hits the fan. However, the frequent strong NW and NE winds (on the West and East coasts, respectively) can rapidly turn either one of these coasts into a dangerous lee shore. Yes, you can try to head for the harbor, but you may get only one shot at it. If your navigation is off by a bit there may be no way back! Over the years I have learned that there is no substitute for maximum searoom near lee shores. Moreoever, on the West coast many harbors have sand bars that become nearly impassable in strong NW winds. Finally, there are the feared Points and Capes. It may do you little good if the nearest harbor happens to lie just around the next Point or Cape.....At any rate, let me repeat, if you already feel comfortable sailing coastal routes in the higher latitudes, doing an offshore passage in the tropical latitudes is likely to be a walk in the park by comparison.Have fun!Flying Dutchman

John Nantz · Dec 12, 2002

Rudder Question for Henk

How about some insight from someone who is out there and doing it?After reading your list of improvements and added gear to make your vessel stand up to the blue water environment it's obvious you've given "everything" a great deal of thought. A 43 is a pretty good-sized boat and caries a large rig capable of generating some pretty good-sized forces.If you plan to continue your South Pacific sojourn and make the crossing to New Zealand, in light of the recent H-45 rudder problem in the ARC, I was wondering if you have any thoughts or concerns about your rudder system? You know, like little voices in the night before departure?Any plans for a backup system or improvements to same? Additions to a contingency plan? If the original rudder failed due to rough sea conditions a backup system on a boat the size of a 43 would need to be pretty darn stout. So much so that if the original rudder ever did fail due to rough conditions I don't see how a short-handed crew could put a backup one into place given the weight and conditions. The 43 isn't billed as a "coastal cruiser", that I'm aware of, so hopefully the builder has a good factor of safety built in.By the way, several years ago I talked to someone with a 43 from Port Ludlow WA that sailed from near Fiji to New Zealand and they narrowly escaped a major system thanks to his boat speed. It's a long distance and systems can brew up fast. The other blue-water boats making the same trip got caught because they were too slow and consequently got clobbered.

henkmeuzelaar · Dec 12, 2002

Rudder system redundancy on Rivendel II

Yes, John, I would indeed have some concerns about the rudder. But before elaborating, let me repeat again that I feel that the Legend 43, and vessels of similar ilk, can be made into nearly-perfect Tradewind cruisers but should think twice before undertaking offshore passages in the Variables and higher latitudes. Every year, about one in three of our cruising friends making the passage between New Zealand and New Caledonia, Vanuatu or Fiji runs into a strong gale or storm in the 50-60+ knot category.At the moment, however, we have no immediate plans to sail to New Zealand since Project MARC, our medical and educational assistance project for the remote island communities in Vanuatu (see website link below), not only keeps us here but brought us back from Queensland, Australia in June/July 2000. As the number and size of international cruising vessels helping Project MARC increases steadily each year, however, we may well find that "Rivendel II" is no longer an essential link in the project and either decide to sell her here in Vanuatu (i.e. at the end of the 2003 season) or sail her to New Zealand (in spite of my earlier avowed reservations) to use her as a coastal cruiser there.With regard to the rudder; here is the deal:(1) due to the use of our AutoHelm windvane with large (nearly 6 ft high!), transom-mounted accessory rudder, Rivendel's main rudder tends to see light use only. Most of the time it stays locked near-center while the accessory rudder steers. Nonetheless, we are keeping a close eye on condition of the aluminum pedestal base (corrosion!), cables and quadrant. Also, the rudder itself is carefully inspected each year and to make sure it has no water inside and there are no signs of ablation between the 1 3/4" stainless steel shaft and the FRG rudder body. Nonetheless, I think that the amount of play between the shaft and the shaft tube has slowly increased a little bit over the years (thereby increasing the potential amount of shosk-loading) and I have often thought about having a modern rudder shaft bearing assembly installed. Needless to say, of course, that would be a major operation.So, what is the plan if we would loose the rudder. Well, first of all, I want to reduce the chance that the same mishap (e.g. u/w collision with tree trunk) would take out both the main rudder and the transom-mounted accessory rudder. Therefore, I have made a stainless steel, spring-loaded clamp that is designed to break loose in case of a major frontal or sideways blow, thereby letting the rudder rotate upwards till it passes over the obstacle. It's basic design is similar to a transom mounting plate for a large outboard (and can in fact be used to mount an outboard after removing the accessory rudder). Unfortunately, since the springs need to be very strong and tightened down to avoid the clamp coming loose in heavy seas, there is no real way to test the system (e.g. with a sledge hammer) without potentially damaging the rudder or it's brackets. I just hope I will never find out whether it really works or not.....Hope this answers most of your questions.Flying Dutchman"Legend 43"

John Nantz · Dec 12, 2002

Twin Rudders?

Hitting a floating solid object with a rudder would be a real concern. In the Northwest and Southeast Alaska it's a constant battle to dodge deadheads and logs. One summer at Port Hardy there was on average about one boat per day pulled out from hitting floating debris, mostly powerboats.The H-43 goes pretty fast and I've heard that 9 knots is not uncommon. Hitting a log or large fish/whale at this speed is likely to make a good noise or worse.A lot of the round-the-world racers now sport dual rudders. These work better when the boat is heeled and also provide a redundancy. However, two rudders are more expensive (2x - except there would be some reduction in cost due to quantity), and the steering mechanism would be more complicated. Of course these boats are going even faster than we are.Was it last year a H-34 from Alaska was having rudder problems? In Latitude 38 there was a letter where the guy wound up having two rudders sent to him in the South Pacific.If a manufacturer is going to build boats for over the horizon cruising then they should provide a reliable and robust steering system that will hold up for regular steering and even hitting some floating things. We aren't expecting a rudder to stand up to hitting a reef. Mounting a rudder on a spring-up system sounds interesting. The stern on our 35 is really light-weight fiberglass and I wouldn't trust mounting anything to it unless it is really beefed up which would be really hard to do upside down in the inside.Then after the rudder there's the question about protection from getting holed. A watertight forward bulkhead would also be a nice addition. Glass in the bow water tank area. The Bavaria uses carbon fiber material in the bow which would really help and you'd think wouldn't cost all that much. Well, sounds like you really have it pretty well thought out. I enjoy reading your postings - you keep us thinking. -= John =-

Rick D · Dec 12, 2002

Kevlar Reinforcement and Rudders

See these links. Hunter does reinforce the bow with Kevlar (and elsewhere). Also, see the note on rudder construction, on the other link. RDhttp://www.huntermarine.com/about/innovate/kevlar.htmhttp://www.huntermarine.com/about/innovate/rudder.htm

Storm!! When do you go to bare poles?

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