Recently I was in some rough weather while crewing on a boat in the Caribbean 1500. Winds were in the 30-40 knot range for several days with gusts over 45 knots. There were squals all over the place. It made me think about conditions getting worse. So I pose the questions: When do you go to bare poles? Do you start the engine to keep control of the boat? If you start the engine do you head into the waves or run with them? Thanks, Joe Mullee
- Status
)I don't get it...
Joe, I don't understand your question. Why do you assume that bare poles is the right rig, when you don't know what to do once you've furled everything? Shortened sail, or storm sails will balance the boat, provide propulsion and therefore allow steering. Steering may indeed be the most important survival element. If the winds are so strong that you need to slow the boat down, a drogue can be used under shortened sail. I think it would have to be really howling to furl everything, at which point you may have decided to lie ahull, in which case you're relinquisiing control to the sea, with a lashed tiller. I'm not an expert, though. Consult Adlard Cole's Heavy Weather Sailing (I'll take a look tonight). jv
Joe, I don't understand your question. Why do you assume that bare poles is the right rig, when you don't know what to do once you've furled everything? Shortened sail, or storm sails will balance the boat, provide propulsion and therefore allow steering. Steering may indeed be the most important survival element. If the winds are so strong that you need to slow the boat down, a drogue can be used under shortened sail. I think it would have to be really howling to furl everything, at which point you may have decided to lie ahull, in which case you're relinquisiing control to the sea, with a lashed tiller. I'm not an expert, though. Consult Adlard Cole's Heavy Weather Sailing (I'll take a look tonight). jv
JV... Me Either.
John, I'm definitely no expert here. The reason I asked is that I've heard of boats going under bare poles in severe weather. I'm wondering what thaose conditions might be. In the weather I was in we never did that. But the worst we saw were winds in the 40's (The Carib1500 web site mentions gusts in the 50's but we were too busy during the worst of it to notice). JM
John, I'm definitely no expert here. The reason I asked is that I've heard of boats going under bare poles in severe weather. I'm wondering what thaose conditions might be. In the weather I was in we never did that. But the worst we saw were winds in the 40's (The Carib1500 web site mentions gusts in the 50's but we were too busy during the worst of it to notice). JM
Joe,
I think that it is your choice when to use storm tactics.If you have a full crew and a boat that can take a continual beating, keep some sail up and keep sailing. Laying ahull is not such a good Idea. It puts you, most of the time, beam-to the waves. This raises the risk of capsizing especially if the waves are higher that you beam dimension. As John said, a drogue is a good storm tactic. It can be very affective if you with a line aft with a snatch block to the drogue rode, to turn the boat about 30 to 40 degrees to the waves( bow first) will be the best ride you can get. If you run, remember that you are traveling in the same direction that the storm is moving and it will take longer to out run it. If the white Horses start showing up you run a severe risk that you will be pooped ( the wave breaking into the cockpit from behind) by one of these white horses. You can chose to deploy a drogue anytime and for as long as you want, as long as you have searoom. You will lose less ground with a drogue. If you are getting tired and need some rest, set the drogue and rest. If you want to start sailing again, douse the drogue and go. This is all book info that I read in Larry Pardy's "Storm Tactics". This and many other books came out after The FastNet and Sidney Hobart disasters. The authors are trying to find the best way to weather a storm. For each sailor a "storm" has different meaning. For some people 30 knots is a storm. To other people it is when the White Horses come out. (White Horses: When the wind is strong enough to create large breaking wave. The cross section or side view of these waves look like White Horse Heads.) If you have not read anything current on storm tactics, there is alot of new proven theory in some recent ( since the sidney hobart disaster)books. If you sail off shore, I would not hesitate to read up and practice some of these current maneuvers that are also being tested by our Navy (USA for you none Americans). r.w.landau
I think that it is your choice when to use storm tactics.If you have a full crew and a boat that can take a continual beating, keep some sail up and keep sailing. Laying ahull is not such a good Idea. It puts you, most of the time, beam-to the waves. This raises the risk of capsizing especially if the waves are higher that you beam dimension. As John said, a drogue is a good storm tactic. It can be very affective if you with a line aft with a snatch block to the drogue rode, to turn the boat about 30 to 40 degrees to the waves( bow first) will be the best ride you can get. If you run, remember that you are traveling in the same direction that the storm is moving and it will take longer to out run it. If the white Horses start showing up you run a severe risk that you will be pooped ( the wave breaking into the cockpit from behind) by one of these white horses. You can chose to deploy a drogue anytime and for as long as you want, as long as you have searoom. You will lose less ground with a drogue. If you are getting tired and need some rest, set the drogue and rest. If you want to start sailing again, douse the drogue and go. This is all book info that I read in Larry Pardy's "Storm Tactics". This and many other books came out after The FastNet and Sidney Hobart disasters. The authors are trying to find the best way to weather a storm. For each sailor a "storm" has different meaning. For some people 30 knots is a storm. To other people it is when the White Horses come out. (White Horses: When the wind is strong enough to create large breaking wave. The cross section or side view of these waves look like White Horse Heads.) If you have not read anything current on storm tactics, there is alot of new proven theory in some recent ( since the sidney hobart disaster)books. If you sail off shore, I would not hesitate to read up and practice some of these current maneuvers that are also being tested by our Navy (USA for you none Americans). r.w.landau
No Good Solution w Fin Keel Spade Rudder
The problem with the fin-keel & spade-rudder type boats is there is no really good storm tactic solution - every "solution" has some definite drawbacks. A while back Sail or Crusing World did an article on storm tactics which I read with interest and noted the fin-keel/spade-rudder hull form wasn't "really" covered well. What I see is "our" type of boat will take more "management" than the heavier displacement type boat once one is trying to ride it out. The Larry Pardy solution works well for displacement-type boats but "not necessarily" for "our" type because of the loading on the rudder and the potential for rolling in a surf. Skeg-hung rudders are supposed to be stronger than a spade rudder for taking side-ways forces. The best storm tactic for a fin-keel spade-rudder boat is storm avoidance - keep a close eye on the weather and do good trip planning to stay within good weather window time periods. Our hull form, tall rigs, high freeboard, no innerstay, light displacement type boats just aren't that suitable for riding it out. I've been in conditions where even 30Kts true (not even a "storm") and an "angry sea" was too much of a handfull and ran for cover. On the other hand one of the best sails I ever had was in 30 knots and rain but the seas seemed "more friendly", if that's possible, and I felt in full control. Maybe the sails were trimmed better - I don't know, but the boat performed really well. That day also happened to be the same one when we were broad-sided by a Sea Ray 35 that lost control! Each situation is going to be different and one needs a bag of tricks and an understanding of how they work - and don't work.
The problem with the fin-keel & spade-rudder type boats is there is no really good storm tactic solution - every "solution" has some definite drawbacks. A while back Sail or Crusing World did an article on storm tactics which I read with interest and noted the fin-keel/spade-rudder hull form wasn't "really" covered well. What I see is "our" type of boat will take more "management" than the heavier displacement type boat once one is trying to ride it out. The Larry Pardy solution works well for displacement-type boats but "not necessarily" for "our" type because of the loading on the rudder and the potential for rolling in a surf. Skeg-hung rudders are supposed to be stronger than a spade rudder for taking side-ways forces. The best storm tactic for a fin-keel spade-rudder boat is storm avoidance - keep a close eye on the weather and do good trip planning to stay within good weather window time periods. Our hull form, tall rigs, high freeboard, no innerstay, light displacement type boats just aren't that suitable for riding it out. I've been in conditions where even 30Kts true (not even a "storm") and an "angry sea" was too much of a handfull and ran for cover. On the other hand one of the best sails I ever had was in 30 knots and rain but the seas seemed "more friendly", if that's possible, and I felt in full control. Maybe the sails were trimmed better - I don't know, but the boat performed really well. That day also happened to be the same one when we were broad-sided by a Sea Ray 35 that lost control! Each situation is going to be different and one needs a bag of tricks and an understanding of how they work - and don't work.
Bare poles are when your sailboat...
...becomes a lifeboat in a storm. I agree with John Nantz, avoidance is the best course of action. If you are caught out in a storm, then as long as you can maintain enough boat speed by using your sails and motor to have helm control, then you have a chance to avoid being capsized. A full keel boat has a better chance of surviving the storm riding it out using a sea anchor then a fin keel boat with a spade rudder. A fin keel boat with a spade rudder has a better chance of surviving by maintaining forward speed, since it doesn't have the weight or full keel to survive a pounding. If the following seas are breaking waves, you would be crazy to run against the storm and expose your stern and cockpit to the breaking waves. The reason sailboats are lost with "Bare Poles" in a storm is because the people on them gave up, they probably just dropped their sails without deploying a sea anchor and went below. A sailboat without helm control or a sea anchor to keep the bow into the wave is just waiting to be capsized. As long as you are actively trying to sail your boat by maintaining helm control speed or keeping the bow into the weather, then you are a sailor and not a storm survivor sitting in a lifeboat waiting to be rescued by the Coast Guard. Fair Winds. Clyde
...becomes a lifeboat in a storm. I agree with John Nantz, avoidance is the best course of action. If you are caught out in a storm, then as long as you can maintain enough boat speed by using your sails and motor to have helm control, then you have a chance to avoid being capsized. A full keel boat has a better chance of surviving the storm riding it out using a sea anchor then a fin keel boat with a spade rudder. A fin keel boat with a spade rudder has a better chance of surviving by maintaining forward speed, since it doesn't have the weight or full keel to survive a pounding. If the following seas are breaking waves, you would be crazy to run against the storm and expose your stern and cockpit to the breaking waves. The reason sailboats are lost with "Bare Poles" in a storm is because the people on them gave up, they probably just dropped their sails without deploying a sea anchor and went below. A sailboat without helm control or a sea anchor to keep the bow into the wave is just waiting to be capsized. As long as you are actively trying to sail your boat by maintaining helm control speed or keeping the bow into the weather, then you are a sailor and not a storm survivor sitting in a lifeboat waiting to be rescued by the Coast Guard. Fair Winds. Clyde
Clyde is right about active heavy weather tactics
To provide a few more reference points for Clyde's strongly endorsed advice about successful storm management strategies for modern fin-keeled & spade-ruddered vessels: (1)Steve Dashew is widely recognized as the "father of the active approach" to heavy weather management; his website <www.setsail.com>, plus articles and books are highly recommended; (2) Victor Shane's "Drage Device Data Base" details successful deployment of drogues -- and especially sea anchors -- by many different fin-keeled/spade-ruddered vessels (yes you might possibly damage your rudder in the process, but would you rather loose your vessel?); and (3) the 35 foot, fin-keeled/spade-ruddered vessel "Midnight Rambler" won the infamous Sydney-Hobart race 2 years ago by slowly jogging "against wind and seas" while much larger and sturdier vessels quit or foundered. In short; you can read the highly appreciated Adlard Coles and Larry Pardue books about heavy weather sailing till the cows come home, but if you happen to own a fin-keeled/spade-ruddered vessel (as most of us on this website do) you would do well to study modern, active heavy weather management techniques! Fair winds. Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II"
To provide a few more reference points for Clyde's strongly endorsed advice about successful storm management strategies for modern fin-keeled & spade-ruddered vessels: (1)Steve Dashew is widely recognized as the "father of the active approach" to heavy weather management; his website <www.setsail.com>, plus articles and books are highly recommended; (2) Victor Shane's "Drage Device Data Base" details successful deployment of drogues -- and especially sea anchors -- by many different fin-keeled/spade-ruddered vessels (yes you might possibly damage your rudder in the process, but would you rather loose your vessel?); and (3) the 35 foot, fin-keeled/spade-ruddered vessel "Midnight Rambler" won the infamous Sydney-Hobart race 2 years ago by slowly jogging "against wind and seas" while much larger and sturdier vessels quit or foundered. In short; you can read the highly appreciated Adlard Coles and Larry Pardue books about heavy weather sailing till the cows come home, but if you happen to own a fin-keeled/spade-ruddered vessel (as most of us on this website do) you would do well to study modern, active heavy weather management techniques! Fair winds. Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II"
If the boat is too fast to control
and/or the crew is too exhausted to guide active tactics, it's time to go to bare poles, and a good drag system, as I understand Pardey and Coles. David Lady Lilley
and/or the crew is too exhausted to guide active tactics, it's time to go to bare poles, and a good drag system, as I understand Pardey and Coles. David Lady Lilley
drogue deployment
Without going back to the books, can you all tell me what a good rule of thumb would be for drogue deployment? Is there a quick ratio to use? Feet of drogue line to size of wave or length or weight of boat(I understand that there might be more line needed for a lighter boat).
Without going back to the books, can you all tell me what a good rule of thumb would be for drogue deployment? Is there a quick ratio to use? Feet of drogue line to size of wave or length or weight of boat(I understand that there might be more line needed for a lighter boat).
Bare poles and sea anchor
Hi Yawl, Read this account of sea anchors and bare poles during an encounter with a nasty pacific storm. It's an excerpt from "Surviving the Storm" pages 466-476. Any vessel that can be knocked down in a hurricane, lose its spreaders and still not lose a mast gets my vote for a true blue water boat. My advice: Don't wait for an emergency to practice emergency procedures! Happy sails _/), MArk
Hi Yawl, Read this account of sea anchors and bare poles during an encounter with a nasty pacific storm. It's an excerpt from "Surviving the Storm" pages 466-476. Any vessel that can be knocked down in a hurricane, lose its spreaders and still not lose a mast gets my vote for a true blue water boat. My advice: Don't wait for an emergency to practice emergency procedures! Happy sails _/), MArk
Mark...God !!!....What a great gripping story...
some real lessons there. To me the big one is...follow the weather and avoid the storms (or seasons with great likelyhood) at all costs.
some real lessons there. To me the big one is...follow the weather and avoid the storms (or seasons with great likelyhood) at all costs.
They don't build them like that anymore
Skookum Boats,the company that built the "Wandering Star" are no longer in business in Port Townsend, Washington. The cutter rigged pilothouse ketch "Wandering Star" in the book, is for sale in Sandy Point, Washington. There are pictures of it on yacht world. It is like you say, a very good open ocean sailboat. It has the full keel with the Skeg hung rudder, mizzen mast, jib sail and inner staysail to fine tune the balance on the boat in almost any weather. Deployment of the drogue or sea anchor rode is mainly based on the sea conditions. The rode should be played out long enough to place the sea anchor about two wave crests to windward of you. You should also be ready to play out or shorten the anchor rode if the wave cycle changes. One of the dangers in deploying a sea anchor or drogue anchor is sliding backwards as a breaking sea rolls under the bow of the boat. The hull slips back on the wave and the entire weight of the hull will fall onto the rudder. If the rudder turns as the boat goes astern, the pressure can easily shear off even the most robust pintels and gudgeons or like in the case of "Wandering Star" the anchor line will part due to the weight of the boat. I would use a sea anchor as a last resort where no one is available to man the helm. It’s a useful tool at sea, but it's still just a tool and you should try and maintain your helm speed. As far as the boat being too fast to handle, it's usually when you are sailing before the wind. Setting a course to windward, you shorten sails to reduce the pounding on your rig and try to maintain helm speed as you head up. If you are running with the storm, your speed then becomes a real issue, it's either too fast or too slow. If you surf down the waves too fast, you might "Pitch Pole". If you are sailing too slow, a breaking wave can lift your stern around and broach you. If you like running in a gale, you can deploy a "Gale Rider". A Gale rider is like an anchor drogue, except it looks more like a basket with webbing. You deploy it off your stern to increase drag as you gybe down the face of the wave. Fair Winds. Clyde http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_full_detail.jsp?url=&boat_id=1042554&units=Feet¤cy=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1984
Skookum Boats,the company that built the "Wandering Star" are no longer in business in Port Townsend, Washington. The cutter rigged pilothouse ketch "Wandering Star" in the book, is for sale in Sandy Point, Washington. There are pictures of it on yacht world. It is like you say, a very good open ocean sailboat. It has the full keel with the Skeg hung rudder, mizzen mast, jib sail and inner staysail to fine tune the balance on the boat in almost any weather. Deployment of the drogue or sea anchor rode is mainly based on the sea conditions. The rode should be played out long enough to place the sea anchor about two wave crests to windward of you. You should also be ready to play out or shorten the anchor rode if the wave cycle changes. One of the dangers in deploying a sea anchor or drogue anchor is sliding backwards as a breaking sea rolls under the bow of the boat. The hull slips back on the wave and the entire weight of the hull will fall onto the rudder. If the rudder turns as the boat goes astern, the pressure can easily shear off even the most robust pintels and gudgeons or like in the case of "Wandering Star" the anchor line will part due to the weight of the boat. I would use a sea anchor as a last resort where no one is available to man the helm. It’s a useful tool at sea, but it's still just a tool and you should try and maintain your helm speed. As far as the boat being too fast to handle, it's usually when you are sailing before the wind. Setting a course to windward, you shorten sails to reduce the pounding on your rig and try to maintain helm speed as you head up. If you are running with the storm, your speed then becomes a real issue, it's either too fast or too slow. If you surf down the waves too fast, you might "Pitch Pole". If you are sailing too slow, a breaking wave can lift your stern around and broach you. If you like running in a gale, you can deploy a "Gale Rider". A Gale rider is like an anchor drogue, except it looks more like a basket with webbing. You deploy it off your stern to increase drag as you gybe down the face of the wave. Fair Winds. Clyde http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_full_detail.jsp?url=&boat_id=1042554&units=Feet¤cy=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1984
Head to Windward
I agree with Henk. In boats like modern Hunters, handling is MUCH better if the skipper navigates the boat into a windward-and into the waves-course. Although this is counter to all of the "classic" literature on the subject, modern boats are not made like the boats that were sailing in classic times. I've learned this during four crossings of the Gulf Stream, when despite our planning ahead and closely monitoring the weather reports, we got hit by strong storms three times. On one of these occasions, we had no choice but to sail downwind, and despite trying every trick, we got completely beat up. On the occasions when we were able to sail to windward, we had a much easier time. On one of these occasions, the conditions were so bad that three boats were sunk in the immediate area and one person was lost at sea. NOAA put out an alert after this deadly storm passed. For my thinking, going downwind in our type of boats is the worse choice because large, steep following waves grab our flat sterns and can slew the boat around too quickly and too powerfully to control it. And although a skilled skipper can steer with these waves, eventually fatigue sets in and the skipper will lapse. When a less-skilled skipper takes the wheel, the pain really begins. Believe me, it is very unpleasant to have your boat surfing sideways down the face of a large, steep wave.
I agree with Henk. In boats like modern Hunters, handling is MUCH better if the skipper navigates the boat into a windward-and into the waves-course. Although this is counter to all of the "classic" literature on the subject, modern boats are not made like the boats that were sailing in classic times. I've learned this during four crossings of the Gulf Stream, when despite our planning ahead and closely monitoring the weather reports, we got hit by strong storms three times. On one of these occasions, we had no choice but to sail downwind, and despite trying every trick, we got completely beat up. On the occasions when we were able to sail to windward, we had a much easier time. On one of these occasions, the conditions were so bad that three boats were sunk in the immediate area and one person was lost at sea. NOAA put out an alert after this deadly storm passed. For my thinking, going downwind in our type of boats is the worse choice because large, steep following waves grab our flat sterns and can slew the boat around too quickly and too powerfully to control it. And although a skilled skipper can steer with these waves, eventually fatigue sets in and the skipper will lapse. When a less-skilled skipper takes the wheel, the pain really begins. Believe me, it is very unpleasant to have your boat surfing sideways down the face of a large, steep wave.
Clyde
You mention using a sea anchor and yet say that a fin and a spade can't deal with the back surge. How can you use a drogue and use the motor with an aggressive tactic? One of the main points that Larry Pardy makes is that straight into the waves the boat gets backwashed, and even crushed by breakers. He made a comment that he doesn't know if his tactic work work with a fin and spade. He doesn't own one to try it. The key to Pardy's tactic is turning the boat on an angle to the wave . The drogue and the keel turbulance create enough disturbance that it affects the incoming waves. So much so that white horses broke before they reached the boat. Look at the picture of this in his book. I am thinking that even with a fin keel and spade, the back pressure would be reduced to a reasonable level. The next issue is how long can a crew put up with this. I know avoidance is the best method. How many times have all of us been out and the weather hit twice as hard in a local weather pattern that was not forcast? You can become exhausted quit rapidly in a short period of time trying to beat a storm. This is especially true if you are sailing single handed or with an inexperienced crew. If you are hit with weather and become fatigued, you need a plan. The drogue method with the turning the boat on an angle reduces lost of searoom and the effects of an offensive sea. This also reduces the rate of being pushed backwards thus reducing the load on the rudder. If it is a matter of capsizing and losing the rudder, lose the rudder. Chances of survival are much greater. Henk, I respect your input.I get the feeling that you sail with a small crew. in a storm that lasts 10 to 12 hours, a crew can become exhausted. What then? Looking for input here. MArk, I could not get your attachment to load with my slow internet access. Would like to see it if you could post the site. r.w.landau
You mention using a sea anchor and yet say that a fin and a spade can't deal with the back surge. How can you use a drogue and use the motor with an aggressive tactic? One of the main points that Larry Pardy makes is that straight into the waves the boat gets backwashed, and even crushed by breakers. He made a comment that he doesn't know if his tactic work work with a fin and spade. He doesn't own one to try it. The key to Pardy's tactic is turning the boat on an angle to the wave . The drogue and the keel turbulance create enough disturbance that it affects the incoming waves. So much so that white horses broke before they reached the boat. Look at the picture of this in his book. I am thinking that even with a fin keel and spade, the back pressure would be reduced to a reasonable level. The next issue is how long can a crew put up with this. I know avoidance is the best method. How many times have all of us been out and the weather hit twice as hard in a local weather pattern that was not forcast? You can become exhausted quit rapidly in a short period of time trying to beat a storm. This is especially true if you are sailing single handed or with an inexperienced crew. If you are hit with weather and become fatigued, you need a plan. The drogue method with the turning the boat on an angle reduces lost of searoom and the effects of an offensive sea. This also reduces the rate of being pushed backwards thus reducing the load on the rudder. If it is a matter of capsizing and losing the rudder, lose the rudder. Chances of survival are much greater. Henk, I respect your input.I get the feeling that you sail with a small crew. in a storm that lasts 10 to 12 hours, a crew can become exhausted. What then? Looking for input here. MArk, I could not get your attachment to load with my slow internet access. Would like to see it if you could post the site. r.w.landau
Use sea anchor as last resort...
...on a fin keel spade rudder sailboat. I would use a sea anchor as a last resort to save myself at the cost of possible damaging my sailboat. Modern fin keel spade rudder sail boats are built for speed like a thoroughbred race horse, they can not withstand pounding by heavy seas like a heavier full keel skeg hung rudder sailboat. I look at the sea anchor like a PFD, it might save my life someday. I know that if I use a sea anchor, I'm in a world of hurt. Full keel boats should set their sea anchor so that the wave hits them at an angle and not straight on. That would work on a full keel sailboat since they have the long horizontal surface area. On a fin keel spade rudder sailboat, the chance for rolling increases as the angle to wave increases if it isn't moving. Another method to try if you need to temporarily leave the cockpit pit and go below is to heavy-to with reefed sails. You try and oscillate between being near "Locked in Irons" and extremely close haul. You do this by adjusting the storm jib, reefed mainsail and the set the helm to cross control. The sails will want to fall off the wind causing increase in boat speed until there is enough boat speed for the rudder to put the boat back into the wind. Once you have the sailboat oscillating, you can temporarily go below. I would use a "Gale Rider" drogue if I wanted to aggressively sail downwind in a storm. Since I'm sailing downwind and surfing the breakers, I would use the drogue to help me from "Pitch Poling" or slamming in the back of the wave in front of me as I surf down the front of a wave. I would use the motor to adjust my forward speed or increase my drag by going in reverse. The motor is used for acceleration when you need that extra bit of speed to hit the wave dead on, or if the wave is beginning to swing your stern around and you might broach. A sailboat's primary means of propulsion is the sails. The auxiliary means of propulsion is the motor. If you have enough speed so that you have helm control, you are participating in your own destiny, as soon as you stop moving you are just a storm survivor and leaving your destiny to chance. Fair Winds. Clyde
...on a fin keel spade rudder sailboat. I would use a sea anchor as a last resort to save myself at the cost of possible damaging my sailboat. Modern fin keel spade rudder sail boats are built for speed like a thoroughbred race horse, they can not withstand pounding by heavy seas like a heavier full keel skeg hung rudder sailboat. I look at the sea anchor like a PFD, it might save my life someday. I know that if I use a sea anchor, I'm in a world of hurt. Full keel boats should set their sea anchor so that the wave hits them at an angle and not straight on. That would work on a full keel sailboat since they have the long horizontal surface area. On a fin keel spade rudder sailboat, the chance for rolling increases as the angle to wave increases if it isn't moving. Another method to try if you need to temporarily leave the cockpit pit and go below is to heavy-to with reefed sails. You try and oscillate between being near "Locked in Irons" and extremely close haul. You do this by adjusting the storm jib, reefed mainsail and the set the helm to cross control. The sails will want to fall off the wind causing increase in boat speed until there is enough boat speed for the rudder to put the boat back into the wind. Once you have the sailboat oscillating, you can temporarily go below. I would use a "Gale Rider" drogue if I wanted to aggressively sail downwind in a storm. Since I'm sailing downwind and surfing the breakers, I would use the drogue to help me from "Pitch Poling" or slamming in the back of the wave in front of me as I surf down the front of a wave. I would use the motor to adjust my forward speed or increase my drag by going in reverse. The motor is used for acceleration when you need that extra bit of speed to hit the wave dead on, or if the wave is beginning to swing your stern around and you might broach. A sailboat's primary means of propulsion is the sails. The auxiliary means of propulsion is the motor. If you have enough speed so that you have helm control, you are participating in your own destiny, as soon as you stop moving you are just a storm survivor and leaving your destiny to chance. Fair Winds. Clyde
Clyde
I can tell from your response that you have not read Larry Pardy's book. It is really hard to believe some of this stuff unless you see the work behind it. Tactics have changed! Running is no longer the perferred option. My main point is that with the method discribed in Pardy's book reduces the pounding. In the photos, Larry is standing on the bow and waves are breaking on each side of him.The water that is hitting him has been modified by the drogue and keel to no more than foam. I have played with this on my 25 O'Day. By no means was it in severe conditions but it worked! I am going to continue to practice this method in increasingly worse conditions until I am very comfortable with it. Clyde, Most of the people in this forum cannot sail agressively down wind. We lack the sea room. Sailing downwind can put more than hull speed distance reading on lost ground toward a lee shore. r.w.landau
I can tell from your response that you have not read Larry Pardy's book. It is really hard to believe some of this stuff unless you see the work behind it. Tactics have changed! Running is no longer the perferred option. My main point is that with the method discribed in Pardy's book reduces the pounding. In the photos, Larry is standing on the bow and waves are breaking on each side of him.The water that is hitting him has been modified by the drogue and keel to no more than foam. I have played with this on my 25 O'Day. By no means was it in severe conditions but it worked! I am going to continue to practice this method in increasingly worse conditions until I am very comfortable with it. Clyde, Most of the people in this forum cannot sail agressively down wind. We lack the sea room. Sailing downwind can put more than hull speed distance reading on lost ground toward a lee shore. r.w.landau
I haven't read his book
I would not recommend running in a storm, it is difficult and highly challenging for even the most experience sailors. As I said in an earlier post, "If the following seas are breaking waves, you would be crazy to run against the storm and expose your stern and cockpit to the breaking waves." I agree that running in following seas is not the preferred option. But, someday you might have no other options available but to run in a following sea. I agree that the sea anchor drogue is an important tool in storm tactics. It is something I would use, but I prefer a more active sailing approach and would use the passive approach after I've exhausted most, if not all of my other sailing options. One of the things about deploying a sea anchor drogue is that once you deploy it, it would be a pain to douse the drogue and pull in the anchor rode. If you had to do it in a storm, you would have to crawl forward and either haul in the anchor rode with the windless or cut it. That’s why I look at it as one of my last options. As long as the storm jib is on before the big blow, I don't need to be crawling on my hands and knees to go forward unless I had no other choices but to deploy the drogue. If Larry Pardy could stand at the bow of his sailboat and have a picture taken using the sea anchor drogue, how bad could it have been? In a gale or storm, the shriek of the wind, the force of the blowing wind and driving rain makes it all most impossible to stand, see or hear anything. I'll look for his book in the book store. Fair Winds. Clyde
I would not recommend running in a storm, it is difficult and highly challenging for even the most experience sailors. As I said in an earlier post, "If the following seas are breaking waves, you would be crazy to run against the storm and expose your stern and cockpit to the breaking waves." I agree that running in following seas is not the preferred option. But, someday you might have no other options available but to run in a following sea. I agree that the sea anchor drogue is an important tool in storm tactics. It is something I would use, but I prefer a more active sailing approach and would use the passive approach after I've exhausted most, if not all of my other sailing options. One of the things about deploying a sea anchor drogue is that once you deploy it, it would be a pain to douse the drogue and pull in the anchor rode. If you had to do it in a storm, you would have to crawl forward and either haul in the anchor rode with the windless or cut it. That’s why I look at it as one of my last options. As long as the storm jib is on before the big blow, I don't need to be crawling on my hands and knees to go forward unless I had no other choices but to deploy the drogue. If Larry Pardy could stand at the bow of his sailboat and have a picture taken using the sea anchor drogue, how bad could it have been? In a gale or storm, the shriek of the wind, the force of the blowing wind and driving rain makes it all most impossible to stand, see or hear anything. I'll look for his book in the book store. Fair Winds. Clyde
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