Storm Sail rigging

Oct 25, 2008
168
Albin Marin Vega Bogue Chitto, Miss
I have a storm sail aboard Emma Gail, but also have a roller reefing
jib. Do any of you have this set up, and if so how do you hook up the
storm sail? Is there another halyard brought forward, and I just
hoist up behind the furlled headsail? or am I missing something? The
only storm sail I ever hoisted was hanked onto the forestay in place
of the jib. Any advice is appreciated. Photos would be outstanding.
 
Oct 31, 2019
230
Ken, this may sound silly, but are you sure your storm is a headsail? If
you only have one storm, it should be designed to be hoisted in place of
the main. Trev (V2915)



________________________________

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of mageekenneth
Sent: October 17, 2008 1:06 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Storm Sail rigging



I have a storm sail aboard Emma Gail, but also have a roller reefing
jib. Do any of you have this set up, and if so how do you hook up the
storm sail? Is there another halyard brought forward, and I just
hoist up behind the furlled headsail? or am I missing something? The
only storm sail I ever hoisted was hanked onto the forestay in place
of the jib. Any advice is appreciated. Photos would be outstanding.
 
Oct 30, 2019
574
I've got the same thing. It is a hanked on storm sail from before the furler was installed.
In order to use it, you'll need to either remove the furling system and go back to hanked
on head sails, run a separate forestay (or possibly a solent stay...a removable forestay), or
remove the hanks and sew in a bead into the luff so that it fits in the roller reefing
system.
 
Oct 25, 2008
168
Albin Marin Vega Bogue Chitto, Miss
Well, it has hanks on it, so the only place I can imagine is that it snaps onto the forestay. The clew( lower aft corner) has an extension of 3/8" steel cable that extends a couple of feet to an eye/thimble. The overall size of it is very small maybe 25% of a working jib. There is also a larger storm sail that has slides for the mast track that takes the place of the main, and I have worked through the proceedure for getting it set. I am thinking that maybe it was used prior to the roller furling unit was added.???? I appreciate the feed back and all of your help. Seems like I am always learning something new when it comes to sailing!!
 
Oct 30, 2019
1,459
Hi Kenneth,
You could have the hanks removed and have a luff tape sewn on so it
would work on the furler. Another idea, instead of the luff tape,
is "Kiwi Slides" Check them out at Desktop Wings | Independent Publisher of Outstanding Books and
click on "Kiwi Slides" in the left hand menu.

I have no experience with these, but one of the advantages I like is
that, with these slides attached to the jib, you can lower the jib
without having to take it off the furler.

The wire cable on your storm sail is probably a pendant to raise the
tack up from the deck when it is hoisted.

Hope this helps,
Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'
 
Oct 31, 2019
562
By definition (and the Vega sailplan), a stormsail is a headsail and is hoisted like a jib.
Wilhelm, V-257
 
Oct 25, 2008
168
Albin Marin Vega Bogue Chitto, Miss
So how do you all recommend setting up for heavy weather if you are equipped with a roller up front? I have been contemplating having a few grommets added vertically from the foot to the leach on the roller reefing Genoa that would allow me to reduce it's size to a small working area and perhaps just lash it down to the smaller size should the weather turn bad. I am not sure if this is reasonable or logical or even if the standard sail weight is gonna ride out a heavy blow. How are storm jibs normally deployed with a roller reefing unit.
 
Oct 31, 2019
303
There are a couple solutions. Several to be exact.

First, don't sail when you are predicting bad weather - avoid hurricanes at
sea!!! That isn't really that hard to do.

Dealing with good gales is different as they can come upon you. With roller
furling you have a couple options. Roll in the sail until it is a small
sail. Now this depends upon the way your sail is designed and built. I had
my roller headsail built at about a 135 that I can roll into to a 100 and
not lose any shape as my sailmaker (Carol Hasse) designed proper padding
into the sail. If I go further, well in those conditions I don't care all
the much about shape. The cloth is heavy enough to hold up to pretty
significant blows, yet it is still supple enough for normal use. I do admit
that I spend a lot for my sails and spend many hours working with Hasse to
get the design I want just right. Hasse's Port Townsend Sails (Washington
State) is my favorite sailmaker (they are right above Brion Toss Rigging,
who happens to be my favorite rigger!!!!) most convenient.

Now, there is no reason not to change headsails. Roller furling sails are
nothing more than a "foil" sail that racers have used for decades. When I
was on some of the ocean racers we had a dozen sails all with a luff tape
for the foil. We'd swap out sails all the time, often every 15 minutes.
Often we'd lash them to the deck if they were going to be hoisted again
soon. So just because you have a roller furler doesn't mean that it is a
permanent attachment. It is really easier to change a foil than a hanked-on
sail. So if you are used to going forward and changing sails this should be
no problem at all. Your sailmaker can add the the proper lufftape for your
slot. By the way, some foil headstays have double grooves in them just for
the purpose of changing sails. That way you can do an inside-out swap
(taking one up and one down at the same time - racers are a strange bunch).
I often did this on my larger cruising boat when sailing in the Pacific.

Now the most elegant solution is to have a second forestay, often called a
"baby stay" attached back from the headstay. If it is attached close to the
roller furling head stay it is sometimes called a "solent" stay. These stays
could have another roller furled sail, much small of course, or be for a
hanked-on sail or luff tape. The problem with this is that it is in the way
of the main headsail (this isn't as much a problem on the baby stay since it
is aft a few feet, unlike the solent stay. So on one boat I came up with a
way to loosen it and then devised a system to store it at the mast. I used
wire rope in those days. But nowadays there are some fantastic fiber lines
on the market that are stronger than their steel counterpart (for instance I
use a fiber line for my lifelines and they are much better and stronger than
any wire rope - this was a Brion Toss installation).

It is also possible to have a sail built with a stay built into the sail.
I've never done this, but had one designed one time. Again this would be
removable. Just attach it onto the deck fitting and hoist with your spare
jib halyard which I assume you have - if not you should have one.

By the way, with the storm trysail replacing the main it is often better to
not attach it to the main sail slider. The way I've always done it is just
to make a rope "horse" and attach it to the aft cleats (like a bridle). I
seized the center so the sail could slop around. I adjusted the sail by
adjusting the bridle. With a trysail fancy, tuned sail trim is the last
thing on your mind.

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Kenneth Magee
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 7:19 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AlbinVega] Storm Sail rigging

So how do you all recommend setting up for heavy weather if you are equipped
with a roller up front? I have been contemplating having a few grommets
added vertically from the foot to the leach on the roller reefing Genoa that
would allow me to reduce it's size to a small working area and perhaps just
lash it down to the smaller size should the weather turn bad. I am not sure
if this is reasonable or logical or even if the standard sail weight is
gonna ride out a heavy blow. How are storm jibs normally deployed with a
roller reefing unit.
 
May 30, 2006
1,075
Hi Chris,
Very interesting post. Thanks. I have a couple of questions though..

-what is a rope horse? you mean shaped like a wooden horse used in construction?

-On the baby stay, do you have the mast end fixed to the mast, or is it more like an extended halyard that you clip to your deck hardware and tension? If it is always fixed length, how do you stow it to the mast?

-Where specifically do you have your new foredeck attachment for the baby stay? Do you remember brand and part no for any of the parts? and what to use to back the hardware.

-What spot did you pick on the mast to attach the top part of the stay? Do you need to put any type of rigging on the aft side of the mast to correspond to the new loading point on the front of the mast?

Thanks,
roy
 
Oct 31, 2019
303
Roy,

Glad you found it interesting - not hard to write interesting stuff about
boats. I want to note that I am not doing this on the Vega as it is not all
that large a boat. I did this on a larger, heavier boat I once sailed and I
don't know if I'd go to all this trouble on that boat if I were doing it
today!!!!

OK a rope horse is nothing more than a piece of rope that attaches to the
rear mooring cleats. I seized a loop in the middle of this to allow my
attaching the pennant from the trysail. I then adjusted the rope lengths
appropriately by adjusting it at the two mooring cleats. Now, some folks
will say this doesn't allow a lot of control. Well when all hell is breaking
loose you aren't trimming your sails all the much if at all anyway. You just
hope to get it set kinda of right and hang on. I am obviously talking about
survival conditions here. But one should practice all this in a lighter
wind, say a force 5 or so.

I did fix the one I did on the bigger boat to the mast above the spreaders.
I used a standard mast fitting that was rivet (or was it screwed) into the
mast as if one was attaching a spinnaker block. Since the baby stay never
had much of large sail on it we figured that the mast had enough heft
without using running backstays. But we did consider adding these. Can say
for the standard mast on the Vega as I had a new mast build in Canada that
has a somewhat bigger section to it.

On the deck I used a standard ring-type fitting. I had a really solid
bulkhead right where I attached it I had a good way to displace the load to
the hull. Not sure if the forward bulkhead on the Vega would allow this. But
I don't believe I've heard of others adding a baby stay. I don't have my
rigging catalogs here now so I can't give you part numbers. I did use a
backing plate and ran straps to the bulkhead. A really easy way to do that
is to buy one of those deck ring fittings and then buy a second for the
backing plate. Put the second on the inside and you can then use this to
attack the straps. I've also seen guys fabricate backing plates for just
this. You really need to keep the load off the deck and transfer to a
bulkhead to the hull though.

On the deck end of the stay I put in a big pelican-like hook that I believe
Wichert makes. Really expansive though. I then took and bent a l inch piece
of stainless tubing and sawed it in half lengthwise. I had mounting bracket
welded to it and a ring put on the mast. I'd drop the stay, run it over the
180degree open tube and attach it to the mast when I wasn't using it.

Now with all that said, as small as the Vega is all that would be overkill.
The main reason for a baby stay on a sloop rig is to move the center of
effort aft to help balance with the CE of the sail moving forward with
either a reef or a try sail. I probably wouldn't go to all the trouble on
the Vega.

Just have your small headsail adapted to a luff tape to fit your roller
furling track and be done with it. As I said swapping sails isn't all that
difficult with a luff tape system.

Chris

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of groundhog
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 10:50 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AlbinVega] Storm Sail rigging

Hi Chris,
Very interesting post. Thanks. I have a couple of questions though..

-what is a rope horse? you mean shaped like a wooden horse used in
construction?

-On the baby stay, do you have the mast end fixed to the mast, or is it more
like an extended halyard that you clip to your deck hardware and tension?
If it is always fixed length, how do you stow it to the mast?

-Where specifically do you have your new foredeck attachment for the baby
stay? Do you remember brand and part no for any of the parts? and what to
use to back the hardware.

-What spot did you pick on the mast to attach the top part of the stay? Do
you need to put any type of rigging on the aft side of the mast to
correspond to the new loading point on the front of the mast?

Thanks,
roy
 
Oct 31, 2019
230
Dear Vegans, if you are heading offshore, you may want to consider a
storm trysail. What Wilhelm is referring to is actually a storm jib.
Here is one of the many exchanges you can find on the net discussing
storm tactics at sea. Trev (V2915)





I've sailed in gales, for periods up to about 12 hours, without the use
of a storm Trysail, and with only an overpowered Heavy-Weather Jib.
These circumstances occurred in Lake Superior & The Bahamas ("coastal",
semi-protected waters).

On each occasion, I wished I had a Tri & a proper storm jib - and
certainly wouldn't head offshore (transoceanic) without them. Storm Sails - Heavy weather sailing ~ by George Day (Blue Water Sailing)
"... The main objective when shortening down in heavy weather is to keep
the boat balanced and making reasonable and safe headway. To balance the
rig, you need to reduce the size of the sails fore and aft in roughly
equal increments. The reason is twofold. First, a balanced rig will be
the most efficient rig. Sailing with a headsail alone, as some sailors
do, will give the boat a heavy lee helm that will make steering tiresome
and will slow your headway. And, secondly, the sails themselves, even
when reefed down, provide a shock absorbing affect for the rig. As the
boat pounds through the waves, or falls off the face of the waves, the
jarring to the rig can cause swages and turnbuckles to fail ..."
Goto: boats.com - Feature: Storm Sails
http://www.boats.com/content/default_detail.jsp?contentid=1282

Some definitions:

Storm Trysail: A short triangular sail that is attached to back of the
mast, and is sheeted to the deck. The area of the storm trysail cannot
be more than 0.175(PxE). The ORC states, "It shall be sheeted
independently of the boom and shall have neither a headboard nor battens
and be of suitable strength for the purpose." If you ever plan to set a
storm trysail, it is best to have a separate track on the mast for the
sail. In a gale, the last thing you want to do is remove the mainsail
from the mast to bend on the storm trysail.

Storm Jib: Its area is limited to five percent of the height of the
foretriangle squared. The rule states that the luff of the storm jib
must be shorter than 65 percent of the height of the foretriangle.

Heavy Weather Jib: Its area is limited to 13.5 percent of the height of
the foretriangle squared. The ORC rules state that this sail cannot have
reef points.

The ORC recommended maximum storm sail sizes are:
Storm jib = Height of foretriangle (I) squared *.05
Storm trysail = .175* P*E
Many authorities recommend 20% smaller areas

If either the storm jib or heavy weather jib are made to fit a
luff-groove device, the sail must have an alternative means of being
attached to the stay. The most common alternative method is to have
grommets along the luff so that you can tie the sail to the stay.

The sheet leads must be a absolutely fair, otherwise chafe will destroy
the sheets in a matter of hours.

The rules recommend storm sails be made in orange or other bright
colour.

See also Storm Jib FAQ http://www.baconsails.com/stormjib.html ~ from
Bacon Associates


________________________________

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of WL
Sent: October 18, 2008 9:04 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AlbinVega] Storm Sail rigging



By definition (and the Vega sailplan), a stormsail is a headsail and is
hoisted like a jib.
Wilhelm, V-257
 
Oct 30, 2019
1,459
Trevor,
Very interesting information. Thanks!
Instead of a storm trisail, would a third reef in the main do the
trick, or is this still too much sail area?

Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'
 
Nov 11, 2016
96
Nimble Arctic Toronto
Hey Peter, apparently when you're in a bad gale, you don't want to rely on a sail attached to the boom due to the stresses etc. Also, reefs can chafe and let go. The other problem with a third reef is that you're still relying on the relatively light cloth of your main, which can eventually be shredded in a long hard blow. A trisail is made of really tough material. Trev (V2915)

To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comFrom: prjacobs@...: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:44:59 +0000Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging

Trevor,Very interesting information. Thanks!Instead of a storm trisail, would a third reef in the main do the trick, or is this still too much sail area?Peter#1331 'Sin Tacha'
 
Oct 30, 2019
1,459
Other thing is a boom can be pretty dangerous in high winds. In a storm steering is difficult so you really have to use a preventer on the boom if you are at all off the wind. Jibing (intentional or accidental) with a trysail is easy, but jibing any boat with the main up - even reefed - in storm winds is dangerous.

Nicholas Walsh
Nicholas H. Walsh P.A.
111 Commercial Street
Portland Maine 04101
Tel. 207/772-2191
fax 207/774-3940

This email was sent from the law firm of Nicholas H. Walsh P.A. It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you suspect that you were not intended to receive this email, please delete it and notify us as soon as possible. Thank you.
From: trevor leech
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 8:14 PM
To: albinvega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging
Hey Peter, apparently when you're in a bad gale, you don't want to rely on a sail attached to the boom due to the stresses etc. Also, reefs can chafe and let go. The other problem with a third reef is that you're still relying on the relatively light cloth of your main, which can eventually be shredded in a long hard blow. A trisail is made of really tough material. Trev (V2915)

To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comFrom: prjacobs@...: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:44:59 +0000Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging

Trevor,Very interesting information. Thanks!Instead of a storm trisail, would a third reef in the main do the trick, or is this still too much sail area?Peter#1331 'Sin Tacha'
 
Oct 30, 2019
1,459
Maybe a boom crutch should be added to the list, along with the
trisail and storm jib!
Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'
 
Oct 30, 2019
1,459
Bigger cruising yachts have gallows to lash the boom onto. Boats w/o gallows may (I have read) drop the clew end of the boom to the deck (corner of the cockpit) and lash it. Were I going offshore in a Vega, I might have an 18 inch pennant of wire swaged to the backstay with a shackle on the other end to go the end of the boom, as a back up to the topping lift. I have used that system on a 54' racing boat offshore when we used the trysail and it works well - hate to depend on just the topping lift to keep the boom from dropping into the cockpit.Nicholas Walsh
Nicholas H. Walsh P.A.
111 Commercial Street
Portland Maine 04101
Tel. 207/772-2191
fax 207/774-3940

This email was sent from the law firm of Nicholas H. Walsh P.A. It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you suspect that you were not intended to receive this email, please delete it and notify us as soon as possible. Thank you.
From: pjacobs55
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 12:19 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail riggingMaybe a boom crutch should be added to the list, along with the
trisail and storm jib!
Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'
 
Oct 31, 2019
303
I agree with much of what has been said, and am not criticizing, but I
wouldn't do some of the things myself (some things aren't wrong, just
different). The problem with a trysail is what to do with it. To be truly
effective it must have its own track on the mast and it is recommended that
it be furled on the track for instant deployment. As was cited in the
article posted by Trevor, "If you ever plan to set a storm trysail, it is
best to have a separate track on the mast for the sail. In a gale, the last
thing you want to do is remove the mainsail from the mast to bend on the
storm trysail." Amen to that. I don't know how that could be done easily on
a Vega. Also the Vega is small and extra weight isn't good for any boat.

I've owned more than a few boats before I bought the Vega (my retirement
project and now I sail singlehanded). On two of these I had storm jibs and
trysails built. I never used either, other than during my sea trials in calm
conditions. And I've done my share of blue water and ocean crossings. Again
I am not criticizing or advising against them, I just never did and I have
been in 30 foot seas (I thought they were less but had an experienced
Alaskan tug boater with me on one trip and he said they were 40 feet - so I
split the difference) and the winds I knew were a steady 45 with gust to
probably 60. I have also been in many worse winds during squalls that I
encountered when crossing the ITCZ on my way to Tahiti. Again if I had found
myself in certain conditions (such as on a lee shore) I might have found
good use for a trysail - but then a triple-reefed main should suffice (I
agree the boom is dangerous here). I almost always rig a preventer if the
wind is blowing much at all and I am on a broad reach or run (I have a
question about the Vega on this I will ask later). As for a storm jib I just
have a small working jib cut out of heavier cloth, say a 95 or 100 and have
it built to allow a good reef down a couple sizes with the furler. I use
roller furling so this isn't an issue. I always use a smaller headsail when
conditions are at all threatening - they are easy to swap with the genny,
actually easier than a hanked-on sail in my opinion.

OK, so what is my solution. First I always give myself plenty of sea room if
I expect any kind of blow. What I have done is to run off before the wind
and waves. It might not be the direction I really want to go, but I never
sail to a schedule. But it is a whole lot easier to sail downwind in heavy
wind and seas than against the fray. I found that the methods Bernard
Moitessier wrote about work well for me. I just scud off on the wave and
then round up a bit so my nose doesn't dig in. Moitessier often took his
sails down and sailed under bare poles which one can do pretty easily
downwind -- doesn't work well at all upwind :) Some of his books are still
in print after all these years, "A Sea Vagabond's World" is really good
reading on many topics. Richard Henderson also wrote about Moitessier's
technique in his book on single-handed sailing. But I usually have some
sails up - I ran off for two days once and I was never in any trouble except
I had a guy who always cooked big meals and trying to clean-up a galley in
30 foot waves is really hard.

As to jibing in heavy weather, just sheet in as far as you can and then jib.
That way the boom doesn't have to travel far - don't forget to slack or
remove the preventer before jibing though.

MY QUESTION -- RIGGING the PREVENTER: The Vega is easy to figure out how to
set it up at the boom end, since it has end-boom sheeting. Regardless of
where the main sheet attaches it should always and only be rigged to the end
of the boom to prevent damage to the boom. OK, what I have done in all my
other boats is to attach a snatch block to the bow cleats and then run a
pre-stretched line from the boom and through the block (not nylon - I
learned the hard way when the boom jibed one time and the nylon stretched so
much the boom came across and the line was wrapped over the mast). I bring
this line back to the cockpit to a winch. The problem with the Vega is that
the since bow cleat is a wood dowel and the fairleads are open. I don't
want to use the wood dowel to attach my snatch blocks to. Also I would never
run a preventer in an open fairlead (actually I will probably remove these
and install real cleats as this is safer and more useful anyway (easier to
attach an anchor snubber for instance or when locking)). What have others
done here?

Chris

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of pjacobs55
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 9:19 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging

Maybe a boom crutch should be added to the list, along with the
trisail and storm jib!
Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'
 
Oct 25, 2008
168
Albin Marin Vega Bogue Chitto, Miss
After long thought on the natter I have decided to not do the trysail either. When it gets that bad, I hope to be able to just run off and ride it out. I have the storm jib and with the way the VEGA balances with just a foresail, I think a trysail isn't very useful and worthy of the $$, weight, or space. But I also have a sea anchor and delta drouge to help ride it out when it really blows. The reccomendations I have seen lead me to believe that a third reef in the main and a furled down head sail are going to be adequate in most cases. I have been thinking of adding another halyard forward and a reenforced padeye up near the foot of the forestay and hoisting a kind of alternate stay that I would attach the hanked storm jib to if the weather went way south. At this point I would assume I would have the main completely lowered and well tied off. The boom lashed to the backstay. the vang loaded, paying homage to Poseiden, and preping to
kiss my*^# goodbye. Am glad that I am making the same mistakes as an old salt like yourself. NO NYLON PREVENTERS, and I haven't found a good attachment point up forward either. I guess there are lots of ways to accomplish the task of storm management. I have figured out it depends on the boat the storm, hazards and the personality of the captain. No certain right thing to do, but lots of wrong things to keep in mind.
 
Oct 31, 2019
163
Re: Gybe Preventers - we too are quick to rig the preventer, following an accidental gybe whilst sailing on a narrow reach off Cap St. Vincent in Portugal - the wind changed direction by 120 degrees but not strength (F5) in less than a second!

Our lines connects to the boom end fitting via a snap-shackle (actually it;s a climbing karribeener) and from there to two blocks on the toe rail which're just about in line with the mast - originally these were simply lashed to stanchion bases and whilst they never failed, I wasn't entirely convinced by their strength, so I replaced two deck bolts on each side with a U-bolt to provide a secure mounting point. From here the lines return to jammer cleats on the cockpit coamings, Contrary to your own preferences, we use a dynamic nylon rope by choice, specifically to provide a bit spring in the event of a gybe.

Bob Carlisle
Spring Fever 1776