Storm Sail rigging
- Thread starter mageekenneth
- Start date
Has anyone experience of a Jordan Drogue on a Vega in storm conditions. This would seem a better than sailing under bare pole in strong winds and big seas.
David Wisidsh
V3283 PonteneurFrom: Kenneth Magee
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:37 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail riggingAfter long thought on the natter I have decided to not do the trysail either. When it gets that bad, I hope to be able to just run off and ride it out. I have the storm jib and with the way the VEGA balances with just a foresail, I think a trysail isn't very useful and worthy of the $$, weight, or space. But I also have a sea anchor and delta drouge to help ride it out when it really blows. The reccomendations I have seen lead me to believe that a third reef in the main and a furled down head sail are going to be adequate in most cases. I have been thinking of adding another halyard forward and a reenforced padeye up near the foot of the forestay and hoisting a kind of alternate stay that I would attach the hanked storm jib to if the weather went way south. At this point I would assume I would have the main completely lowered and well tied off. The boom lashed to the backstay. the vang loaded, paying homage to Poseiden, and preping to
kiss my*^# goodbye. Am glad that I am making the same mistakes as an old salt like yourself. NO NYLON PREVENTERS, and I haven't found a good attachment point up forward either. I guess there are lots of ways to accomplish the task of storm management. I have figured out it depends on the boat the storm, hazards and the personality of the captain. No certain right thing to do, but lots of wrong things to keep in mind.
David Wisidsh
V3283 PonteneurFrom: Kenneth Magee
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:37 PM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail riggingAfter long thought on the natter I have decided to not do the trysail either. When it gets that bad, I hope to be able to just run off and ride it out. I have the storm jib and with the way the VEGA balances with just a foresail, I think a trysail isn't very useful and worthy of the $$, weight, or space. But I also have a sea anchor and delta drouge to help ride it out when it really blows. The reccomendations I have seen lead me to believe that a third reef in the main and a furled down head sail are going to be adequate in most cases. I have been thinking of adding another halyard forward and a reenforced padeye up near the foot of the forestay and hoisting a kind of alternate stay that I would attach the hanked storm jib to if the weather went way south. At this point I would assume I would have the main completely lowered and well tied off. The boom lashed to the backstay. the vang loaded, paying homage to Poseiden, and preping to
kiss my*^# goodbye. Am glad that I am making the same mistakes as an old salt like yourself. NO NYLON PREVENTERS, and I haven't found a good attachment point up forward either. I guess there are lots of ways to accomplish the task of storm management. I have figured out it depends on the boat the storm, hazards and the personality of the captain. No certain right thing to do, but lots of wrong things to keep in mind.
I have a Delta that I deployed for practice once when the winds were up around 30knots. I kept a little sail up to try to simulate more wind speed/ force, but I never used it in real storm conditions. Worked like a charm. The most noticeable difference was made by the length of rode used (3-strand nylon). When I played out the full 350' and got it back a couple of waves I could see how well it actually worked, and began to see where it would be very useful. I think the Jordans are a little more expensive because of the higher/newer technology, but the Deltas have been around for a good long while have a good track record. If there is no problem with sea room, then it seams to me like the thing to do in a blow is to hunker down, and ride it out. Even with a good set of stom sails properly rigged. The loads they must transmit through the rigging of such a lightly built boat seems to me like they may get excessive.
Hauling it in is work it took the better part of 2 hrs to get it in and stored away, and was more like pulling the boat back to the drouge than the drogue to the boat.
KLMagee "Emma Gail"
Hauling it in is work it took the better part of 2 hrs to get it in and stored away, and was more like pulling the boat back to the drouge than the drogue to the boat.
KLMagee "Emma Gail"
Is the Delta deployed from the stern of the boat as is the Jordan Drogue? The Jordan is a100 small cones deployed along the length of some 200 ft of rope so the boat is presented stern to the wind. From: Kenneth Magee
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 5:22 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging/Drogue-Sea AnchorI have a Delta that I deployed for practice once when the winds were up around 30knots. I kept a little sail up to try to simulate more wind speed/ force, but I never used it in real storm conditions. Worked like a charm. The most noticeable difference was made by the length of rode used (3-strand nylon). When I played out the full 350' and got it back a couple of waves I could see how well it actually worked, and began to see where it would be very useful. I think the Jordans are a little more expensive because of the higher/newer technology, but the Deltas have been around for a good long while have a good track record. If there is no problem with sea room, then it seams to me like the thing to do in a blow is to hunker down, and ride it out. Even with a good set of stom sails properly rigged. The loads they must transmit through the rigging of such a lightly built boat seems to me like they may get excessive.
Hauling it in is work it took the better part of 2 hrs to get it in and stored away, and was more like pulling the boat back to the drouge than the drogue to the boat.
KLMagee "Emma Gail"
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 5:22 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging/Drogue-Sea AnchorI have a Delta that I deployed for practice once when the winds were up around 30knots. I kept a little sail up to try to simulate more wind speed/ force, but I never used it in real storm conditions. Worked like a charm. The most noticeable difference was made by the length of rode used (3-strand nylon). When I played out the full 350' and got it back a couple of waves I could see how well it actually worked, and began to see where it would be very useful. I think the Jordans are a little more expensive because of the higher/newer technology, but the Deltas have been around for a good long while have a good track record. If there is no problem with sea room, then it seams to me like the thing to do in a blow is to hunker down, and ride it out. Even with a good set of stom sails properly rigged. The loads they must transmit through the rigging of such a lightly built boat seems to me like they may get excessive.
Hauling it in is work it took the better part of 2 hrs to get it in and stored away, and was more like pulling the boat back to the drouge than the drogue to the boat.
KLMagee "Emma Gail"
Yes. One of the main reasons I chose to go with the drogue is because I could use my long anchor rode when deploying it. With the Jordan the cones are permenately attached, so it can't really be used for anything else. I think in essence the only differences between a SEA ANCHOR and a DROGUE is how they are deployed. The drogue is used from the stern when running with the seas. A sea anchor is deployed off either bow quarter via a bridle that attaches to an aft cleat and the bow cleat usually at roughly about the 10 or 2 o'clock position off the nose. It is used when you are reaching into the storm and are trying to hold your position or reduce your being blow back, should you find yourself in a position where you can't or choose not to turn and run with the seas.(like a lee shore) or other hazards. I am not sure if the Jordan can be used off the nose as a sea anchor or if there are any real technical differences between a sea
anchor and delta drogue for a specific boat. Perhaps size and the amount of drag comes into play. I'll be one of the seasoned vets can shed some more light on the subject though. I am so new to all of this that I rate myself somewhere between idiocracy and ignorance.
anchor and delta drogue for a specific boat. Perhaps size and the amount of drag comes into play. I'll be one of the seasoned vets can shed some more light on the subject though. I am so new to all of this that I rate myself somewhere between idiocracy and ignorance.
No personal experience, but based on a friends (he built his own - made all the cones and slpiced them onto the line, it must've taken weeks) experience I would make two comments:
Whilst the lazarette locker would seem the obvious place to store your drogue; a Series Drogue is very heavy (even when dry), so depending upon what else is in there, it could well find you're stern squatting low in the water.
If you carry a series drogue, you should also install a pair of dedicated strong points on the quarters (not stern) with some HUGE backing plates; when Rob deployed his 'for real' in Biscay it was just attached to the stern cleats - he tore one out completely (Sadler 34) and would've lost the second along with his drogue had a crew member not quickly tied on an extra line with a rolling hitch which he then tagged to a sheet winch. By the time they'd done, he'd a bridle jury rigged to bow & midship cleats plus winches - the loads are apparently enormous.
Whilst the lazarette locker would seem the obvious place to store your drogue; a Series Drogue is very heavy (even when dry), so depending upon what else is in there, it could well find you're stern squatting low in the water.
If you carry a series drogue, you should also install a pair of dedicated strong points on the quarters (not stern) with some HUGE backing plates; when Rob deployed his 'for real' in Biscay it was just attached to the stern cleats - he tore one out completely (Sadler 34) and would've lost the second along with his drogue had a crew member not quickly tied on an extra line with a rolling hitch which he then tagged to a sheet winch. By the time they'd done, he'd a bridle jury rigged to bow & midship cleats plus winches - the loads are apparently enormous.
I have now had chance to read up on the Delta Drogue and I already know a little about the Jordan.
It is a good point that with the Delta you can use your anchor warp without having to carry the whole length of the Jordan without being able to use it for anything else apart perhaps for emergency steering.
The theory of the Jordan suggests that as the cones are spread along the length of the line it is easier to retrieve than the one cone type such as the Delta. Also as the cones are along the length of the line there are always cones in the water but in certain circumstances the one cone drogue can brake out of the back of a wave and cease for a time to providing the breaking effect. I think that both drogue types will reduce speed through the water considerably the tests suggest to 1 to 2 knots so providing a much slowed approach to a lee shore if that is the circumstance in which it is deployed.
Like you I hope that one of our more knowledgeable Vega sailors is able to add comment. From: Kenneth Magee
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 9:10 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging/Drogue-Sea AnchorYes. One of the main reasons I chose to go with the drogue is because I could use my long anchor rode when deploying it. With the Jordan the cones are permenately attached, so it can't really be used for anything else. I think in essence the only differences between a SEA ANCHOR and a DROGUE is how they are deployed. The drogue is used from the stern when running with the seas. A sea anchor is deployed off either bow quarter via a bridle that attaches to an aft cleat and the bow cleat usually at roughly about the 10 or 2 o'clock position off the nose. It is used when you are reaching into the storm and are trying to hold your position or reduce your being blow back, should you find yourself in a position where you can't or choose not to turn and run with the seas.(like a lee shore) or other hazards. I am not sure if the Jordan can be used off the nose as a sea anchor or if there are any real technical differences between a sea
anchor and delta drogue for a specific boat. Perhaps size and the amount of drag comes into play. I'll be one of the seasoned vets can shed some more light on the subject though. I am so new to all of this that I rate myself somewhere between idiocracy and ignorance.
It is a good point that with the Delta you can use your anchor warp without having to carry the whole length of the Jordan without being able to use it for anything else apart perhaps for emergency steering.
The theory of the Jordan suggests that as the cones are spread along the length of the line it is easier to retrieve than the one cone type such as the Delta. Also as the cones are along the length of the line there are always cones in the water but in certain circumstances the one cone drogue can brake out of the back of a wave and cease for a time to providing the breaking effect. I think that both drogue types will reduce speed through the water considerably the tests suggest to 1 to 2 knots so providing a much slowed approach to a lee shore if that is the circumstance in which it is deployed.
Like you I hope that one of our more knowledgeable Vega sailors is able to add comment. From: Kenneth Magee
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 9:10 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging/Drogue-Sea AnchorYes. One of the main reasons I chose to go with the drogue is because I could use my long anchor rode when deploying it. With the Jordan the cones are permenately attached, so it can't really be used for anything else. I think in essence the only differences between a SEA ANCHOR and a DROGUE is how they are deployed. The drogue is used from the stern when running with the seas. A sea anchor is deployed off either bow quarter via a bridle that attaches to an aft cleat and the bow cleat usually at roughly about the 10 or 2 o'clock position off the nose. It is used when you are reaching into the storm and are trying to hold your position or reduce your being blow back, should you find yourself in a position where you can't or choose not to turn and run with the seas.(like a lee shore) or other hazards. I am not sure if the Jordan can be used off the nose as a sea anchor or if there are any real technical differences between a sea
anchor and delta drogue for a specific boat. Perhaps size and the amount of drag comes into play. I'll be one of the seasoned vets can shed some more light on the subject though. I am so new to all of this that I rate myself somewhere between idiocracy and ignorance.
A sea anchor is just that, it is more an anchor. They aren't designed to
slow the boat but really stop it as much as possible (there is always some
drift). A drogue is designed not to stop but slow the boat. I suppose a
drogue could be deployed off the bow but it won't function as a sea anchor
would. We used to use old parachutes for sea anchors and some folks, in the
old days on bigger boats, used to carry a couple old auto tires for a
drogue. If you only want to slow the boat a little you can always drag some
warps. Looping them back to the boat really can cause some drag.
One thing I once learned the hard way when towing anything. I had a crewman
on board who was a power boater. We were towing a "towing generator" on 100
feet of lineat the time. He was on watch and decided to use the engine to
try and avoid a squall. You get the picture of what happened I am sure, you
can't do a 360 turn when towing a line. I had to dive the boat in the
middle of the Pacific to cut the line off the prop.
One final comment. The old KISS principle needs to be applied. One can add
so many things that the boat gets to complicated. Plus the Vega isn't all
that big. Adding special sails and drogues and sea anchors all adds weight.
On more than one boat I worked on we had to raise the boot stripe as all the
gear the owner put on board sunk it below the lines. This certainly doesn't
help the sailing characteristics, particularly in a light boat like the
Vega. Not that you shouldn't add things to make the boat safe, but I bet if
a survey was done of all the Vega owners one would find few ever used a try
sail or a drogue or a sea anchor - I can't say for sure, but it would be
interesting surveys "What Special Gear Do You Carry?" and "What Do You
Consider Necessary For Safety Offshore On The Vega".
From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Kenneth Magee
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 1:11 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging/Drogue-Sea Anchor
Yes. One of the main reasons I chose to go with the drogue is because I
could use my long anchor rode when deploying it. With the Jordan the cones
are permenately attached, so it can't really be used for anything else. I
think in essence the only differences between a SEA ANCHOR and a DROGUE is
how they are deployed. The drogue is used from the stern when running with
the seas. A sea anchor is deployed off either bow quarter via a bridle that
attaches to an aft cleat and the bow cleat usually at roughly about the 10
or 2 o'clock position off the nose. It is used when you are reaching into
the storm and are trying to hold your position or reduce your being blow
back, should you find yourself in a position where you can't or choose not
to turn and run with the seas.(like a lee shore) or other hazards. I am not
sure if the Jordan can be used off the nose as a sea anchor or if there are
any real technical differences between a sea
anchor and delta drogue for a specific boat. Perhaps size and the amount of
drag comes into play. I'll be one of the seasoned vets can shed some more
light on the subject though. I am so new to all of this that I rate myself
somewhere between idiocracy and ignorance.
slow the boat but really stop it as much as possible (there is always some
drift). A drogue is designed not to stop but slow the boat. I suppose a
drogue could be deployed off the bow but it won't function as a sea anchor
would. We used to use old parachutes for sea anchors and some folks, in the
old days on bigger boats, used to carry a couple old auto tires for a
drogue. If you only want to slow the boat a little you can always drag some
warps. Looping them back to the boat really can cause some drag.
One thing I once learned the hard way when towing anything. I had a crewman
on board who was a power boater. We were towing a "towing generator" on 100
feet of lineat the time. He was on watch and decided to use the engine to
try and avoid a squall. You get the picture of what happened I am sure, you
can't do a 360 turn when towing a line. I had to dive the boat in the
middle of the Pacific to cut the line off the prop.
One final comment. The old KISS principle needs to be applied. One can add
so many things that the boat gets to complicated. Plus the Vega isn't all
that big. Adding special sails and drogues and sea anchors all adds weight.
On more than one boat I worked on we had to raise the boot stripe as all the
gear the owner put on board sunk it below the lines. This certainly doesn't
help the sailing characteristics, particularly in a light boat like the
Vega. Not that you shouldn't add things to make the boat safe, but I bet if
a survey was done of all the Vega owners one would find few ever used a try
sail or a drogue or a sea anchor - I can't say for sure, but it would be
interesting surveys "What Special Gear Do You Carry?" and "What Do You
Consider Necessary For Safety Offshore On The Vega".
From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Kenneth Magee
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 1:11 AM
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: Storm Sail rigging/Drogue-Sea Anchor
Yes. One of the main reasons I chose to go with the drogue is because I
could use my long anchor rode when deploying it. With the Jordan the cones
are permenately attached, so it can't really be used for anything else. I
think in essence the only differences between a SEA ANCHOR and a DROGUE is
how they are deployed. The drogue is used from the stern when running with
the seas. A sea anchor is deployed off either bow quarter via a bridle that
attaches to an aft cleat and the bow cleat usually at roughly about the 10
or 2 o'clock position off the nose. It is used when you are reaching into
the storm and are trying to hold your position or reduce your being blow
back, should you find yourself in a position where you can't or choose not
to turn and run with the seas.(like a lee shore) or other hazards. I am not
sure if the Jordan can be used off the nose as a sea anchor or if there are
any real technical differences between a sea
anchor and delta drogue for a specific boat. Perhaps size and the amount of
drag comes into play. I'll be one of the seasoned vets can shed some more
light on the subject though. I am so new to all of this that I rate myself
somewhere between idiocracy and ignorance.
I apologize for this long post. This would be easier if we were
having a beer in the cockpit.
I also single hand almost exclusively, though I `m not cruising.
If I were to take off though it would likely be solo, so I was
interested in your comments regarding running off trailing warps.
Running off instead of heaving-to seems to be a common tactic
with the Vega. I suspect it is because she won't heave-to properly.
Instead she sits well off the wind, not beam on but far enough that it
is difficult to take speed off. Mahina, Rupert, Berserk, Mr. Perfect
all dragged warps and steered in the cockpit. But what happens to the
singlehander when exhaustion overcomes one. There is a point when
remaining at the helm is no longer an option. Ann Miller had left the
helm when she rolled. Berserk, on the return trip, broke out a window
while running off, and exhaustion probably played a part in that.
When Wildflower was lost this summer exhaustion certainly played a part.
http://www.sfbaysss.net/showthread.php?t=217&page=2
Skip Allen ran off dragging a drogue until it broke. When asked if he
considered heaving-to the skipper (an experienced professional sailor)
replied "My previous experience had shown it to be an unsatisfactory
technique for Wildflower (not a Vega). . .it tended to put her at the
mercy of being rolled. I also remembered my good friends Don and
Eileen who had brought a 27' Vega back for the 1978 Singlehanded
TransPac. They got in a similar condition, attempted to heave-to. and
ended up being inverted 180 deg. 3 times."
The Mahina trailed warps until John felt the boat was in danger of
being pitchpoled. He then hove-to but the description is something
different than what I understand as "hove-to". He writes "have been
hove-to under trysail for 19 hours. The winds are still over 50 knots.
The tiller is tied off so that we are presenting our stern quarter to
the waves. Seas have increased during the night, some breaking over
the boat , hitting the trysail and filling the cockpit." and on the
night the rudder failed "lying a-hull under bare poles. . . .lashed
the helm down . . . taking the breaking crests on the stern quarter."
I suspect the problem is that "hove-to" the Vega presents too much
beam to the seas and is really, as Neal says, a-hull. Allard says
that beam on, a sea of only 30% of the vessel's length is enough to
roll a boat over.
I would like to get the Vega to behave herself so that it would be
possible to get a break from the helm. Using Lin Pardey's description
I tried several times last winter to get the boat to heave to in a
proper manner, to sit with her bow just off the wind and stay put,
without fore reaching ahead. I set the rig as normal with a backed
headsail with the tiller down and eased main. Heaving-to couldn't be
done with the sails I had on board, a small yankee cut jib, a 45'
storm jib and three reef main. The boat was more comfortable but
continued to fore reach too much. A sea anchor from the bow won't
help here if the boat sails out of lee of the chute, although I
haven't tried it yet. I tried various combinations including moving
the storm jib tack well back to a padeye mounted on the coach roof
just forward of the fore hatch, and ,in place of a proper trysail,
hoisting the small jib inverted in place of the main, clew attached to
the main halyard and head stretched out as a clew ( I think that was
something you had suggested Peter) None of this was in strong winds,
perhaps 15 knots to the low 20's. What I think happens is that
because the center of lateral resistance is well back ( I think about
even with the middle of the cabin windows) and the center of effort is
quite a bit forward of that point, at least under reduced rig, the bow
is forced off the wind. This is aggravated by the bow being cut back
underwater. Reefing the main moves the center of effort farther forward.
I wonder if what needs to be done is to move enough sail astern
that it will counteract the force on the headsail, which would also
probably need to come back or be severely reduced in size. Possibly a
special cut trysail/riding sail with the clew brought back to the
stern cleats. A sea anchor may help if the boat's head can be brought
more to sea, and if it helps create a smooth spot more the better.
Lin's description of heaving-to is much more appealing than John's,
but that's probably just me.
The fact that the boat continues to reach ahead with the backed
jib is not all bad though, and is what makes the "beam reach" or
"quick about" MOB maneuver so effective.
All of this is conjecture as I haven't enough experience to know
what makes sense. Has anyone had better luck?
Craig Tern #1519
PS May I get you another cold one?
having a beer in the cockpit.
I also single hand almost exclusively, though I `m not cruising.
If I were to take off though it would likely be solo, so I was
interested in your comments regarding running off trailing warps.
Running off instead of heaving-to seems to be a common tactic
with the Vega. I suspect it is because she won't heave-to properly.
Instead she sits well off the wind, not beam on but far enough that it
is difficult to take speed off. Mahina, Rupert, Berserk, Mr. Perfect
all dragged warps and steered in the cockpit. But what happens to the
singlehander when exhaustion overcomes one. There is a point when
remaining at the helm is no longer an option. Ann Miller had left the
helm when she rolled. Berserk, on the return trip, broke out a window
while running off, and exhaustion probably played a part in that.
When Wildflower was lost this summer exhaustion certainly played a part.
http://www.sfbaysss.net/showthread.php?t=217&page=2
Skip Allen ran off dragging a drogue until it broke. When asked if he
considered heaving-to the skipper (an experienced professional sailor)
replied "My previous experience had shown it to be an unsatisfactory
technique for Wildflower (not a Vega). . .it tended to put her at the
mercy of being rolled. I also remembered my good friends Don and
Eileen who had brought a 27' Vega back for the 1978 Singlehanded
TransPac. They got in a similar condition, attempted to heave-to. and
ended up being inverted 180 deg. 3 times."
The Mahina trailed warps until John felt the boat was in danger of
being pitchpoled. He then hove-to but the description is something
different than what I understand as "hove-to". He writes "have been
hove-to under trysail for 19 hours. The winds are still over 50 knots.
The tiller is tied off so that we are presenting our stern quarter to
the waves. Seas have increased during the night, some breaking over
the boat , hitting the trysail and filling the cockpit." and on the
night the rudder failed "lying a-hull under bare poles. . . .lashed
the helm down . . . taking the breaking crests on the stern quarter."
I suspect the problem is that "hove-to" the Vega presents too much
beam to the seas and is really, as Neal says, a-hull. Allard says
that beam on, a sea of only 30% of the vessel's length is enough to
roll a boat over.
I would like to get the Vega to behave herself so that it would be
possible to get a break from the helm. Using Lin Pardey's description
I tried several times last winter to get the boat to heave to in a
proper manner, to sit with her bow just off the wind and stay put,
without fore reaching ahead. I set the rig as normal with a backed
headsail with the tiller down and eased main. Heaving-to couldn't be
done with the sails I had on board, a small yankee cut jib, a 45'
storm jib and three reef main. The boat was more comfortable but
continued to fore reach too much. A sea anchor from the bow won't
help here if the boat sails out of lee of the chute, although I
haven't tried it yet. I tried various combinations including moving
the storm jib tack well back to a padeye mounted on the coach roof
just forward of the fore hatch, and ,in place of a proper trysail,
hoisting the small jib inverted in place of the main, clew attached to
the main halyard and head stretched out as a clew ( I think that was
something you had suggested Peter) None of this was in strong winds,
perhaps 15 knots to the low 20's. What I think happens is that
because the center of lateral resistance is well back ( I think about
even with the middle of the cabin windows) and the center of effort is
quite a bit forward of that point, at least under reduced rig, the bow
is forced off the wind. This is aggravated by the bow being cut back
underwater. Reefing the main moves the center of effort farther forward.
I wonder if what needs to be done is to move enough sail astern
that it will counteract the force on the headsail, which would also
probably need to come back or be severely reduced in size. Possibly a
special cut trysail/riding sail with the clew brought back to the
stern cleats. A sea anchor may help if the boat's head can be brought
more to sea, and if it helps create a smooth spot more the better.
Lin's description of heaving-to is much more appealing than John's,
but that's probably just me.
The fact that the boat continues to reach ahead with the backed
jib is not all bad though, and is what makes the "beam reach" or
"quick about" MOB maneuver so effective.
All of this is conjecture as I haven't enough experience to know
what makes sense. Has anyone had better luck?
Craig Tern #1519
PS May I get you another cold one?
Hi Craig,
I found your post very interesting and thought I'd throw in my own two-pennorth (or two-cents depending upon where you're located) worth in reply.
Whilst we're two rather than single handed, I still share your concerns regarding exhaustion eventually overtaking you if you're running-off trailing warps, drogues, car tyres, whatever's available; however, if it got really grim (F8+ for an extended period) and I had the sea-room, I would still probably choose it as the least-worst option. Though I'd certainly continue trying to raise the Starship Enterprise on my VHF in the hope of getting Scotty to Beam me Up.
I must however, take issue with your statement ... I suspect it is because she (the Vega) won't heave-to properly. Instead she sits well off the wind, not beam on but far enough that it is difficult to take speed off...
We've often hove to in Spring Fever; generally just for an hour or so to make/eat a meal in shitty-weather or kill time whilst awaiting a tidal gate and say in a maximum wind of F6 and in my experience the Vega heaves to very well.
We can get Spring Fever to sit with the bow less than 20 degrees off the wind with both sails up and perhaps 25 degrees off with just a well reefed headsail; our 'trick' to achieving this is possibly our helm position. The basic heave-to technique as taught in the UK (if its mentioned at all!) is just a crash-stop - push the tiller to leeward, then once you've come through the wind and backed the sails, pull the tiller back across, lash it tight and then trim your sails to get the best/most comfortable motion - whilst this works on the Vega, it does in my experience and as you note, leave you a little too far off the wind for comfort; I believe this might be because the rudder is so far across that it stalls: On SF we have a balloon fender about 15" diameter - but fairly soggy; after completing the crash-stop element, we drop this fender in the appropriate back corner of the cockpit and lash the tiller hard against it, rather than
diectly against the locker side; this change in rudder angle seems to keep us further up to windward. I'm sure that by using two lines to centre/adjust the rudder angle or sitting and holding the helm, you could do even better - but messing around doing either of those would defeat the whole object which is having a rest and/or getting out of the weather asap.
You also report concern at the speed which the Vega runs off down wind, whether I can assist with that depends upon what your expectations are. I've seen various articles about heaving to which seem to suggest that with the sails 'properly adjusted' (they're always vague about what's required for that bit ) the forward momentum and downwind drift will cancel each other out and you'll forereach pretty well in a stationary position. It may be that I'm getting it badly wrong somewhere, but I really don't think that this state of balance is possible. In Spring Fever I expect that we'll drift downwind at about 1.5 knots with both sails up and at about 1 knot with just the head sail; wind strength/sail area don't seem to effect this rate of drift by very much, I preume that's because as the wind speed increases we're just sailing forward and drifting backward at equally faster rates. Given enough sea room, we'd always go for both sails, we
might drift faster but its a more comfortable motion which is what we're doing it for in the first place.
Bob Carlisle, Spring Fever 1776.
I found your post very interesting and thought I'd throw in my own two-pennorth (or two-cents depending upon where you're located) worth in reply.
Whilst we're two rather than single handed, I still share your concerns regarding exhaustion eventually overtaking you if you're running-off trailing warps, drogues, car tyres, whatever's available; however, if it got really grim (F8+ for an extended period) and I had the sea-room, I would still probably choose it as the least-worst option. Though I'd certainly continue trying to raise the Starship Enterprise on my VHF in the hope of getting Scotty to Beam me Up.
I must however, take issue with your statement ... I suspect it is because she (the Vega) won't heave-to properly. Instead she sits well off the wind, not beam on but far enough that it is difficult to take speed off...
We've often hove to in Spring Fever; generally just for an hour or so to make/eat a meal in shitty-weather or kill time whilst awaiting a tidal gate and say in a maximum wind of F6 and in my experience the Vega heaves to very well.
We can get Spring Fever to sit with the bow less than 20 degrees off the wind with both sails up and perhaps 25 degrees off with just a well reefed headsail; our 'trick' to achieving this is possibly our helm position. The basic heave-to technique as taught in the UK (if its mentioned at all!) is just a crash-stop - push the tiller to leeward, then once you've come through the wind and backed the sails, pull the tiller back across, lash it tight and then trim your sails to get the best/most comfortable motion - whilst this works on the Vega, it does in my experience and as you note, leave you a little too far off the wind for comfort; I believe this might be because the rudder is so far across that it stalls: On SF we have a balloon fender about 15" diameter - but fairly soggy; after completing the crash-stop element, we drop this fender in the appropriate back corner of the cockpit and lash the tiller hard against it, rather than
diectly against the locker side; this change in rudder angle seems to keep us further up to windward. I'm sure that by using two lines to centre/adjust the rudder angle or sitting and holding the helm, you could do even better - but messing around doing either of those would defeat the whole object which is having a rest and/or getting out of the weather asap.
You also report concern at the speed which the Vega runs off down wind, whether I can assist with that depends upon what your expectations are. I've seen various articles about heaving to which seem to suggest that with the sails 'properly adjusted' (they're always vague about what's required for that bit ) the forward momentum and downwind drift will cancel each other out and you'll forereach pretty well in a stationary position. It may be that I'm getting it badly wrong somewhere, but I really don't think that this state of balance is possible. In Spring Fever I expect that we'll drift downwind at about 1.5 knots with both sails up and at about 1 knot with just the head sail; wind strength/sail area don't seem to effect this rate of drift by very much, I preume that's because as the wind speed increases we're just sailing forward and drifting backward at equally faster rates. Given enough sea room, we'd always go for both sails, we
might drift faster but its a more comfortable motion which is what we're doing it for in the first place.
Bob Carlisle, Spring Fever 1776.
(Pfffsssst!) I'll join you in the cockpit, Craig. Good post, BTW.
I've hove-to in various conditions, trying to reduce forward movement
to a minimum and create that 'slick' beside the boat. My most extreme
experience has been in relatively sheltered waters (Juan de Fuca
Straight) under wind conditions of about 30 knots.
The best success I've had to date is to completely furl the jib and
use a mainsail only, reefed as small as possible. That seems to work
under the above conditions, with the bow at about 45 degrees to the
wind. Unfortunately the wind and the waves around here never seem to
agree on going the same direction!
At lesser wind speeds (15 knots or even less) leaving the jib up
still seems to push the bow of the boat around too far.
I think this is an art we have to keep trying at, as I'm sure there
has to be someway to succeed!
We had a great afternoon sail today, out to the middle of the
Straight and back. Sunny weather and a steady 18 knots of wind from
the NE, full main and 120 jib on a close reach, average about 15
degrees of heel, some chop and the odd splash over the dodger
(sprayhood). Hot chocolate never tasted so good
Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'
I've hove-to in various conditions, trying to reduce forward movement
to a minimum and create that 'slick' beside the boat. My most extreme
experience has been in relatively sheltered waters (Juan de Fuca
Straight) under wind conditions of about 30 knots.
The best success I've had to date is to completely furl the jib and
use a mainsail only, reefed as small as possible. That seems to work
under the above conditions, with the bow at about 45 degrees to the
wind. Unfortunately the wind and the waves around here never seem to
agree on going the same direction!
At lesser wind speeds (15 knots or even less) leaving the jib up
still seems to push the bow of the boat around too far.
I think this is an art we have to keep trying at, as I'm sure there
has to be someway to succeed!
We had a great afternoon sail today, out to the middle of the
Straight and back. Sunny weather and a steady 18 knots of wind from
the NE, full main and 120 jib on a close reach, average about 15
degrees of heel, some chop and the odd splash over the dodger
(sprayhood). Hot chocolate never tasted so good
Peter
#1331 'Sin Tacha'
Just a quick note on this, as far as i understand for either a sea droge (a 100 Ft with the cones as they are meant to be) or a sea anchor (not too sure on this one), you are meant to have either a strenthen cleats (due to the "enormouos" forces that will develop everytime a wave is passing by) or specially design points to hold onto.How many off you have them?
The way i see it is that you will end up with a hole on the most vulnerable part of the vessel.
The way i see it is that you will end up with a hole on the most vulnerable part of the vessel.